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  1. #1121
    If I am understanding the wording on the new GoAK correctly - it copies 10% of all healing that you do while it's up (AoE and single target) to all targets within 10 yards. Therefore, if you do 100,000 HPS with GoAK up and have the entire 25 man raid within a 10 yard range, GoAK will do 250,000 HPS (about 3.8 million healing) - in addition to the 100,000 HPS that you do to trigger it. That puts it in line with cooldowns like Ancestral Guidance. If you do more than 100k HPS with it up (which is highly likely if you stack it with AW and DF), you could probably see 6 million+.

    It will still be very dependent on how stacked the raid is though. On a spread raid where it's only hitting melee, you will lose up to 2/3 of the value.

  2. #1122
    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    I'm still not a fan of managing two cooldowns, especially because it seems it will be virtually forced at this point (i.e. we will be balanced around it).



    I'm thinking that glyph should just be scrapped, either Divine Plea unglyphed will have to be bad, or that glyph will just never be worth taking at this point.

    - - - Updated - - -



    I doubt it.
    Definitely agree with the DP glyph. Doesn't make sense to 15% of your mana back instantly if you're still casting for 5 seconds (well more like 4 with haste and all, but still).

    With SH though, I see what you mean but I like that they are looking at giving us other ways to generate Holy Power. I've been playing my monk alt (no I'm not rerolling, just for fun) and it's amazing how many cheap and efficient ways they have to generate chi and they have to juggle a couple CDs (expel harm/renewing mists). I don't think adding Judgment into the mix of our toolkit would be too difficult to handle. Better than HR spam, in my opinion. And luckily, since there are 3 choices on this tier, if someone doesn't like using Judgment, they can take something else (assuming everything gets buffed up to similar levels).
    Last edited by Lumineux; 2013-07-15 at 05:18 PM.

  3. #1123
    Quote Originally Posted by Aladya View Post
    And the problem is? Divine Plea not working with short duration spirit procs(like Rapture is not) means that to even out mana regen it would need to return 1200% of Spirit(i used 8 Raptures instead of all the possible 10 to be fair). Right now Divine Plea returns 405. Aka Divine Plea is 3 times less then what it should be. I was willing to accept 405% Spirit DP IF it worked with Spirit Procs. Not like this.
    Having DP (and Innervate) work off short term Spirit procs is ridiculous. It will create balance problems, where you will need to be balanced around having certain trinkets, and will either be underpowered without those trinkets (if they balance around it) or grossly overpowered with them (if they don't balance around them). In addition, Priests and Shaman will have every right to expect MTT and Innervate to work off Spirit procs if they let DP and Innervate work off them.

    The much more reasonable solution is - make them not work with short term Spirit procs, and then buff Divine Plea or other portions of Paladin regen to where it should be - not make them reliant on having certain trinkets and cheesing certain procs.

  4. #1124
    Quote Originally Posted by tibbee View Post
    Having DP (and Innervate) work off short term Spirit procs is ridiculous. It will create balance problems, where you will need to be balanced around having certain trinkets, and will either be underpowered without those trinkets (if they balance around it) or grossly overpowered with them (if they don't balance around them). In addition, Priests and Shaman will have every right to expect MTT and Innervate to work off Spirit procs if they let DP and Innervate work off them.

    The much more reasonable solution is - make them not work with short term Spirit procs, and then buff Divine Plea or other portions of Paladin regen to where it should be - not make them reliant on having certain trinkets and cheesing certain procs.
    Either way I don't care but a 12 sec cd Rapture returning 150% of Spirit and a 2 minutes cd DP returning 405% of Spirit doesn't ever add up.

  5. #1125
    I'd be interested to see what a full haste build looks like. What sort of cooldown can we get on Holy Shock and Judgment with maximum levels of haste?

    Perhaps some of you mega geared lot can give full haste builds and SH a go on some relevant ptr fights and see the results. I can see it perhaps being a little bit more effective in 10s.

  6. #1126
    Quote Originally Posted by tibbee View Post
    If I am understanding the wording on the new GoAK correctly - it copies 10% of all healing that you do while it's up (AoE and single target) to all targets within 10 yards. Therefore, if you do 100,000 HPS with GoAK up and have the entire 25 man raid within a 10 yard range, GoAK will do 250,000 HPS (about 3.8 million healing) - in addition to the 100,000 HPS that you do to trigger it. That puts it in line with cooldowns like Ancestral Guidance. If you do more than 100k HPS with it up (which is highly likely if you stack it with AW and DF), you could probably see 6 million+.

    It will still be very dependent on how stacked the raid is though. On a spread raid where it's only hitting melee, you will lose up to 2/3 of the value.
    It is still only useful on stacked up targets which is about 2 fights and you cant get a 50% haste buff from it. Also saying it is inline with cooldowns like ancestral guidance is ridiculous when it is 2,5x longer cooldown.

  7. #1127
    Quote Originally Posted by Aladya View Post
    Either way I don't care but a 12 sec cd Rapture returning 150% of Spirit and a 2 minutes cd DP returning 405% of Spirit doesn't ever add up.
    But Priest skills cost a lot. Said no-one ever.

  8. #1128
    Stood in the Fire Kyuuseishu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aladya View Post
    Either way I don't care but a 12 sec cd Rapture returning 150% of Spirit and a 2 minutes cd DP returning 405% of Spirit doesn't ever add up.
    Im not trying to prove anything but you seem to be over exagerating rapture a tad, but working off some values for my current raid

    Priest: PW:S cost is 13725 mana, they have 12000 spirit returning 18000 mana per rapture proc. Assuming they get atleast 8 procs per 2 minutes this is a net gain of 34200 mana per 2 minutes atleast. (this is not including shields cast under meta proc)

    Paladin: I currently have 15000 spirit, DP costs nothing to activate, returns 60750 mana per 2 minutes.

    It may return a large % of spirit but considering the cost of the shield it isn't massively powerful. Yes I know this combined with fiend, PW: Solace and the cheapness of their spells adds up to a whole lot of regen, but Rapture isn't nearly as powerful as you seem to be making it out to be.
    Last edited by Kyuuseishu; 2013-07-15 at 06:01 PM.

  9. #1129
    I've given up griping about Disc priests. They haven't even mentioned bringing them in line.
    The only reference I recall is when they mentioned that Holy Priest mana regen might be too low, or Disc might be too good.
    The fact that they said, "Disc mana regen MIGHT be too good" just shows that they have no clue.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyuuseishu View Post
    Im not trying to prove anything but you seem to be over exagerating rapture a tad, but working off some values for my current raid

    Priest: PW:S cost is 13725 mana, they have 12000 spirit returning 18000 mana per rapture proc. Assuming they get atleast 8 procs per 2 minutes this is a net gain of 34200 mana per 2 minutes atleast. (this is not including shields cast under meta proc)

    Paladin: I currently have 15000 spirit, DP costs nothing to activate, returns 60750 mana per 2 minutes.

    It may return a large % of spirit but considering the cost of the shield it isn't massively powerful.
    That's only one of their mana return mechanics. Don't forget their absurd Fiend/Mind Bender mana regen mechanic.
    *edit* They even buffed Mind Bender to give more mana back...I'm speechless.
    Last edited by mcbubble; 2013-07-15 at 06:23 PM.

  10. #1130
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyuuseishu View Post
    Priest: PW:S cost is 13725 mana, they have 12000 spirit returning 18000 mana per rapture proc. Assuming they get atleast 8 procs per 2 minutes this is a net gain of 34200 mana per 2 minutes atleast. (this is not including shields cast under meta proc)
    Sure it's a net gain of 34200 mana per 2 minutes, but ur ignoring the healing that PW:S does. Going by ur numbers, they get 18000 mana every 12 seconds, the cost? PW:S. Sure it costs mana, but its 180k absorb doing 0% overheal. So all in all, its a net gain of 34200 mana per 2 mintes plus a shit ton of healing

    Edit: the absorb amount of PW:S is probably wrong btw, not sure how much it usually does.
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  11. #1131
    Stood in the Fire Kyuuseishu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Linnea View Post
    Sure it's a net gain of 34200 mana per 2 minutes, but ur ignoring the healing that PW:S does. Going by ur numbers, they get 18000 mana every 12 seconds, the cost? PW:S. Sure it costs mana, but its 180k absorb doing 0% overheal. So all in all, its a net gain of 34200 mana per 2 mintes plus a shit ton of healing
    Of course I'm ignoring the healing I'm looking at it from the rapture point of view, If you start getting into PW:S healing it becomes a whole different conversation from then on, so it's best just to stay away from that subject.

    Quote Originally Posted by peachpies View Post
    then you should subtract the cost of heals while divine plea is up.
    You're just trying to complicate it, even if DP was instant mana return would you try and argue this? the fact you then cast spells after DP has been used?
    Last edited by Kyuuseishu; 2013-07-15 at 06:44 PM.

  12. #1132
    then you should subtract the cost of heals while divine plea is up.

  13. #1133
    Quote Originally Posted by Aladya View Post
    Either way I don't care but a 12 sec cd Rapture returning 150% of Spirit and a 2 minutes cd DP returning 405% of Spirit doesn't ever add up.
    Comparing Divine Plea to Rapture is also ridiculous. The Priest equivalent to Divine Plea is Shadowfiend/PW:Solace or Mindbender. The equivalent to Rapture is basically mana free Holy Power and Beacon of Light healing (net of the mana cost differences between classes).

  14. #1134
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    Quote Originally Posted by tibbee View Post
    Comparing Divine Plea to Rapture is also ridiculous. The Priest equivalent to Divine Plea is Shadowfiend/PW:Solace or Mindbender. The equivalent to Rapture is basically mana free Holy Power and Beacon of Light healing (net of the mana cost differences between classes).
    Considering Disc has it way too good when it comes to mana and we have it the worst, I don't really get what you are trying to defend here.

  15. #1135
    I don't think mana is the thing we should be debating for 5.4. Mana will largely be ok. It's the other stuff we need to worry about.

  16. #1136
    Quote Originally Posted by Pasture View Post
    I don't think mana is the thing we should be debating for 5.4. Mana will largely be ok. It's the other stuff we need to worry about.
    ^ 10charsneeded

  17. #1137
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyuuseishu View Post

    Paladin: I currently have 15000 spirit, DP costs nothing to activate, returns 60750 mana per 2 minutes.
    Im not trying to prove anything but you seem to be over exaggerating Divine Plea a tad, but working off some values for my current raid:

    Paladin: I currently have 12000 spirit, DP costs nothing to activate, returns 48600 mana per 2 minutues and is my only means of returning mana.

    Rapture is only one of Priests mana return mechanics. Don't forget their absurd Fiend/Mind Bender mana regen mechanic.
    *edit* They even buffed Mind Bender to give more mana back...I'm speechless.

    Comparing Divine Plea to Rapture is also ridiculous.

    If you start getting into PW:S healing it becomes a whole different conversation from then on, so it's best just to stay away from that subject.

    **I apparently am not the only one with this view**

  18. #1138
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    The new legendary proc may change this whole debate. If it procs as much as the meta gem procs... http://ptr.wowdb.com/spells/146199-spirit-of-chi-ji.

    We may just end up spamming Divine Lights into the tank half of the time - lots of free Holy Power (depending on mana I suppose or we'd put beacon elsewhere), overhealing gives mastery shield from big hits on tank, overhealing splashes onto melee... everyone wins! Of course it'd be even better in fights where multiple tanks are tanking at once due to beacon too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pasture View Post
    I don't think mana is the thing we should be debating for 5.4. Mana will largely be ok. It's the other stuff we need to worry about.
    Yeah, maybe I'm doing it wrong but I usually have enough mana, even on progression fights. I hit ~5% right when the fight ends, which is how it should be.

    Sure, it feels stupid to look at my druid healer's mana bar and he's sitting at 80% at the end of the same fight, but I didn't -run out- so it doesn't matter to me that much.
    Last edited by Simca; 2013-07-15 at 06:57 PM.
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  19. #1139
    Quote Originally Posted by Ceresc View Post
    Im not trying to prove anything but you seem to be over exaggerating Divine Plea a tad, but working off some values for my current raid:

    Paladin: I currently have 12000 spirit, DP costs nothing to activate, returns 48600 mana per 2 minutues and is my only means of returning mana.

    Rapture is only one of Priests mana return mechanics. Don't forget their absurd Fiend/Mind Bender mana regen mechanic.
    *edit* They even buffed Mind Bender to give more mana back...I'm speechless.

    Comparing Divine Plea to Rapture is also ridiculous.

    If you start getting into PW:S healing it becomes a whole different conversation from then on, so it's best just to stay away from that subject.

    **I apparently am not the only one with this view**
    You are comparing different classes with different kits. Looking at rapture vs plea and then saying well they have mindbender/fiend, also ignore that paladins have mana free heals (from holy power) - not everything is going to work out evenly if you try to compare abilities in isolation like that.

    Rapture mana gains are under cut by the cost of the PW shield, in an analogous way that the mana gains from free healing from Holy power is undercut by the the mana cost of the HP generators.

    If you had to make a comparison, you should be comparing Divine Plea to Mindbinder/Shadowfiend, since those abilities are more similar mechanically. (press button, get back mana)

    Just stop trying to make direct ability comparisons, look at your own kit, and form a coherent argument about whether or not mana regen is sufficient for the classes kit. (personally i think disc's regen is a bit high and holy pally's is too low - but bitching that X sucks, cause other classes Y is better will get you no where with blizz)
    Last edited by Keiyra; 2013-07-15 at 07:09 PM.

  20. #1140
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    Honestly I don't think mana is ok until all the classes can function equally at the similar spirit levels. As long as paladins have to stack more spirit (and lose out on more throughput stats) than the other healers, then no mana isn't fine imo.

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