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  1. #1261
    Quote Originally Posted by Freia View Post
    I know the game well enough to know using that many globals not doing effective healing to get HP for weak LoD isn't going to amount to much.
    So you're not even giving it a chance? Lol. Are you also crusader striking for HP? because that's a global that doesn't do healing. From reading what you post, I feel like you won't be happy until EF refreshes IH again, which more than likely won't happen.

    Honestly if you're not even going to try something/test it out before complaining about it then why bother even posting about it? You're not giving any constructive criticism, just "I don't like it and it looks dumb because GCDs". That's not really helpful. Waiting to test it in actual raid, then coming here and saying "it doesn't help our HPS because I'm spending too many GCDs on it - here are my logs" would have a lot more validity to it. Right now, you really have nothing to back up what you're saying except speculation. Yes I have played this game for a long time too, yes I understand that GCDs not used for healing might not be optimal, but I'm being open minded in what Blizzard is trying to give us, rather than being whiny before even trying it.

    It's the same as saying you hate a food even though you've never tried it. We all have our theories about SH, but let's give it a chance, test it out in a raid, and then come back and talk about what's good and bad.
    Last edited by Lumineux; 2013-07-16 at 10:52 PM.

  2. #1262
    Pandaren Monk Freia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wowalixi View Post
    Not to mention that if you happen to get out of range of the boss or you switch targets for any reason, you could be wasting time trying to move into range targeting an enemy. All of this is time spent not healing the raid, which in heroics is a significant disadvantage for our class.

    I really like the idea of Eternal Flame just adding a HOT component to Light of Dawn and Word of Glory. Or Blizzard can stop being stubborn and just give us Eternal Flame baseline. Did I miss the excuse they made for why they refuse to do this?
    Hots don't fit our toolkit was GC's statement on it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lumineux View Post
    So you're not even giving it a chance, lol. Are you also crusader striking for HP? because that's a global that doesn't do healing. From reading what you post, I feel like you won't be happy until EF refreshes IH againg, which more than likely won't happen.

    Honestly if you're not even going to try something/test it out before complaining about it then why bother even posting about it? You're not giving any constructive criticism, just "I don't like it and it looks dumb because GCDs". That's not really helpful.
    I use CS if I can and if I have the free global.

    You can go ahead and be rude and make stupid assumptions, but it is common sense why I know it will not be raid viable in its current form. If you fail to see that it isn't my problem. Anyone who actually thinks that HS-Judgment-FoL on beacon target-LoD will result in good numbers obviously hasn't been playing the game. Even for the times you HR for the third HP, you are still going to do suboptimal numbers.

    Btw I am actually giving reasons why it isn't going to be viable(and no I didn't say "because it is dumb"). You are giving nothing on why you think it will be. Not helpful at all.
    Last edited by Freia; 2013-07-16 at 10:56 PM.

  3. #1263
    Quote Originally Posted by Freia View Post
    I am not upset about a buffed talent. We are discussing viability of these talents in raids and I am stating my opinion that Selfless healer is not raid viable.
    I agree, and GC has already stated that they accept that it (SH) won't be an attractive option for Holy PvE. This is why I don't understand why we're hung up on it. It will be "more fun in content that you might be interested in using it in" than it was, that's the end of my argument.

    The SH buff is an extremely minor change, and I sure hope there are more major changes yet to come - SS is still not competitive imo, and if our % buffs, SoB change, and GoAK change are supposed to be our "EF compensation" then we are still in a world of hurt

  4. #1264
    Quote Originally Posted by Freia View Post
    Hots don't fit our toolkit was GC's statement on it.
    Yet every other class has at least one HOT that's baseline? Doesn't make any sense. Every healer class should have at least one HOT that they can utilize during HOT-centric fights, which SoO seems to be filled with.

  5. #1265
    It makes me sad that they've fucked us so much that we're reduced to infighting here over irrelevant scraps due to utter frustration with the spec.

  6. #1266

  7. #1267
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wowalixi View Post
    Yet every other class has at least one HOT that's baseline? Doesn't make any sense. Every healer class should have at least one HOT that they can utilize during HOT-centric fights, which SoO seems to be filled with.
    Basically this, the only class that does not actively use a HOT is Disc Priests which they have targeted, directed absorbs (instead of blanket absorbs on heals). And even they actually have a baseline HOT, they just don't use it in most scenarios.

    Shamans aren't a "HOT class" but they have HOT healing. Paladins are I guess supposed to be an "absorb class" but we just lost the absorb, not the actual HOT.

  8. #1268
    Pandaren Monk Freia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dubalicious View Post
    I agree, and GC has already stated that they accept that it (SH) won't be an attractive option for Holy PvE. This is why I don't understand why we're hung up on it. It will be "more fun in content that you might be interested in using it in" than it was, that's the end of my argument.

    The SH buff is an extremely minor change, and I sure hope there are more major changes yet to come - SS is still not competitive imo, and if our % buffs, SoB change, and GoAK change are supposed to be our "EF compensation" then we are still in a world of hurt
    If he stated that, it was a long time ago. He said they are trying to make the other two options in that tier more attractive for Holy. If he accepts SH isn't for us, then resources need to stop going to buffing it for us so we can get real fixes.

    I am thinking if we get anything else, it won't be until after 25m testing or at least until they take LH off EF again so Paladins can actually test the changes properly.

  9. #1269
    He did say that SH will not work for every Paladin, but he has also said that he plans on making SS compete with EF so we are not done seeing changes to SS (one would think).

    https://twitter.com/Ghostcrawler/sta...32878329487360

  10. #1270
    The Lightbringer Simulacrum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Absintheminded View Post
    He did say that SH will not work for every Paladin, but he has also said that he plans on making SS compete with EF so we are not done seeing changes to SS (one would think).

    https://twitter.com/Ghostcrawler/sta...32878329487360
    Sounds like a euphemism for "nerf EF" to me. Which I guess they already did.

    So they just need to buff SS a little and they're done! It can now "compete" with (the new and 'improved') EF!

    Maybe next they'll help us not feel so much like we need to stack spirit, by nerfing the amount of regen that we get from it. Other stats are now better than they used to be, by comparison!

  11. #1271
    High Overlord Zarry's Avatar
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    How i feel as a paladin healer..



    I used to rule the world
    Meters would rise when I gave the word
    Now in 5.4 I stand alone
    Last in the meters I used to own

    I used to roll the cd's
    Feel the relief in my team's eyes
    Listen as the raid would sing
    "That damned boss is dead! Long live absorvs!"

    One minute I held the key
    Next the shamys were closed on me
    And I discovered that my healing stands
    Upon pillars of salt and pillars of sand

    I hear Druids are getting a new nature's vigil
    And shamans more cooldowns for stacked heals
    Monks need no sprit, they just spam chii heals
    And priest will just keep with atonment heal

    For some reason I can't explain
    Once we lost EF it was never
    Never an honest buff
    And that was when I ruled the world

    It was the tweeting and the forum qq
    People panicking about what was happening
    Just dreading what was about to come
    People couldn't believe what we had become

    All the other healers wait
    For my head on a silver plate
    Just puppet on a lonely string
    Oh who would ever want to be king?

    I hear Druids are getting a new nature's vigil
    And shamans more cooldowns for stacked heals
    Monks need no sprit, they just spam chii heals
    And priest will just keep with atonment heal

    For some reason I can't explain
    I know Ghost Crawler won't buff my class
    Never an honest buff
    But that was when I ruled the world

    I hear Druids are getting a new nature's vigil
    And shamans more cooldowns for stacked heals
    Monks need no sprit, they just spam chii heals
    And priest will just keep with atonment heal

    For some reason I can't explain
    I know Ghost Crawler won't buff my class
    Never an honest buff
    But that was when I ruled the world

  12. #1272
    Speaking of Sacred Shield!

    Somebody else will have to confirm, but currently on the PTR Holy Insight is not affecting SS at all. Just looking at my expected values, that 25% from Holy Insight seems to be missing. If that is the case, that would be a good first step to bringing it in line =)

    [E] Maybe it's always been this way? I haven't checked in quite a while, but neither HI or Seal of Insight seem to increase the SS absorb

  13. #1273
    Not to mention that if you happen to get out of range of the boss or you switch targets for any reason, you could be wasting time trying to move into range targeting an enemy. All of this is time spent not healing the raid, which in heroics is a significant disadvantage for our class.
    Judgment has a pretty big range... you would have to be nearly out of range to heal the tank/melee in order to be out of range of your target, which you just shouldn't be unless you've been specifically assigned to heal a group of ranged on the other side of the room. It just doesn't happen that often. Targeting a boss in order to judge or even to use holy prism just isn't that hard. If you are letting people die when you have to move, how do you survive any fight that involves any kind of movement? Do you only ever heal on fights where you can just stand in one spot and spam? There are plenty of times in most fights where you have to move ANYWAY, and THAT is when you cast judgment if HS or prism isn't up. Obviously you learn not to use it when not healing someone in that moment would cause problems... but all that takes is smart play, not a more user-friendly play-style. The past year is the ONLY time that holy paladins haven't had to cast judgment, so I really don't see why picking up this talent and using it would be that much of a stretch for most of us, unless you never healed on a paladin pre-pandaria.

    Not to mention... /focus assist macros do wonders. You don't have to target your target at all. You might want a little more flexibility in terms of changing your target in pvp, but in pve it doesn't really matter. Just set your focus and judge when you have a spare second. No fumbling with your targets, no accidentally pulling something from across the room (haha), easy.

    I hope hope HOPE that this ends up being a viable choice for pve. But I also hope that EF (and SS would be nice too) are equally as useful.
    Amaltheia Dorothea
    "I got teleported back to my house and a huge "transfer aborted: instance not found" text appeared right infront of me!!" -TS26

  14. #1274
    Quote Originally Posted by Virsta1 View Post
    So how many fights in ToT could you consistently get that rotation off? By no means am I trying to justify this talent but what you just said literally asked for the perfect situation in the raid. FoL is also .9 second cast time with 1 SH proc. SH talent can consistently Generate 3 holy power 2-4 seconds faster then HS, HR, HR. Also to rely on a infusion of light proc is just silly. You can not sit there and tell me they are even close in holy power generation.
    On 9/13 without issues. Ofc I can sit here and tell you are they close in holy power generation, you're analyzing the first 5 seconds of a fight with little regard to the rest of the fight,how you need to heal the raid, what the encounter is about and so on and so forth, not to mention doing a Judgement that helps your hps with 0.Btw ,saying I can't bring into discussion a 50% chance proc is silly. You're also missing the other point, you have 3 holy power now what? The Holy Power finishers at your disposal are bad. Can you agree at least that on any fight you can melee on, the extra Holy Power from judging is useless?

    Even on fights you can't melee on you can do a Holy Radiance(which costs 21.6k mana and has a 2.5 cast time instead of 1.5) but grants the same 1 Holy Power. Yes, here you can have a slightly higher HP generation with judgement as you'll oom from Radiance(+by default using Judgement is faster then HS HR HR), but lets be serious, you'd do so little healing that any good guild would bench anyway on progression.
    Last edited by Aladya; 2013-07-17 at 05:39 AM.

  15. #1275
    Quote Originally Posted by Lumineux View Post
    Sounds like you haven't even given it a chance.
    What is there a chance to give for? This is a more obnoxious version of Judgements of the Pure, instead of every 30 seconds, you now gotta waste a global every time judgement is off cooldown, something Ghostcrawler stated wasn't very fun. Now it's back, and worse than before. I don't need to give it a chance to know I hate it, and won't be speccing it unless it is the only viable choice.

    Can't believe some of you are so happy about this Selfless Healers, wasting global cooldowns for 1 holy power, you consider this more fun than rolling Eternal Flames? Surely, you jest.
    Last edited by Cairhiin; 2013-07-17 at 06:54 AM.

  16. #1276
    Quote Originally Posted by Aladya View Post
    On 9/13 without issues. Ofc I can sit here and tell you are they close in holy power generation, you're analyzing the first 5 seconds of a fight with little regard to the rest of the fight,how you need to heal the raid, what the encounter is about and so on and so forth, not to mention doing a Judgement that helps your hps with 0.Btw ,saying I can't bring into discussion a 50% chance proc is silly. You're also missing the other point, you have 3 holy power now what? The Holy Power finishers at your disposal are bad. Can you agree at least that on any fight you can melee on, the extra Holy Power from judging is useless?

    Even on fights you can't melee on you can do a Holy Radiance(which costs 21.6k mana and has a 2.5 cast time instead of 1.5) but grants the same 1 Holy Power. Yes, here you can have a slightly higher HP generation with judgement as you'll oom from Radiance(+by default using Judgement is faster then HS HR HR), but lets be serious, you'd do so little healing that any good guild would bench anyway on progression.


    I mean crusader strike does nothing for healing either unless you take battle healer. But I am just trying to have an open mind. A lot of people in this thread are super negative. I don't blame them but just not how I like to handle things. I am also wondering what bosses you can be in melee for 9 fights. The only ones I can sit in melee consistently is Jin'Rokh, Horridong, Council, Tortos, Durumu, Primordius, DA, and Ra'den. I just wanna know your other fight(guessing Ji'kuhn). probably just a difference in strats. The difference in Hpower is pretty significant when you are not able to be in melee. I have not done enough fights on PTR to say whether or not SH is even close in numbers with EF. I don't think anyone has tested it though in a raid setting?? Correct me if I am wrong. I do not follow actual testing dates.
    Last edited by Virsta1; 2013-07-17 at 07:26 AM.

  17. #1277
    What about giving judgement a smite-heal component in addition to 1 HoPo with SH?
    Imho the paladin lacks "something cool". The finishers aren't really strong and atm and with EF blanketing gone the last "cool" mechanic does not work anymore.
    Maybe i am wrong, because atm i play Prot mainly, but we have the most problems at fights with people spread. Our singletarget heals take ~2 seconds and will definately be sniped... So what's the way to go on a spread fight? HR HR HS (all on melees) and cast the WoG on the mage standing in the fire for a second too long? This makes me feel like "doh, i spent my 3 HoPo just for one singletarget heal, that hits like a DL would have done"

    I like the idea of giving LoD a HoT component. And i like the idea of judging in between like we did in the last content to get mana back. But judging should be a filler for moments, when you actually not need to heal immediately and therefore should give us some bonus or power for the healing afterwards.

  18. #1278
    Quote Originally Posted by Virsta1 View Post
    I mean crusader strike does nothing for healing either unless you take battle healer. But I am just trying to have an open mind. A lot of people in this thread are super negative. I don't blame them but just not how I like to handle things. I am also wondering what bosses you can be in melee for 9 fights. .
    i assume ji kun, megaera, last phase IQ, partly twins. For all those it depends on strategy and is only a small % of time of the whole boss fight, but obviously possibly.
    either way, as blizz doesn't classify us as melee they should remove cs/remove hp from cs for hpala

  19. #1279
    Quote Originally Posted by Virsta1 View Post
    I am also wondering what bosses you can be in melee for 9 fights. The only ones I can sit in melee consistently is Jin'Rokh, Horridong, Council, Tortos, Durumu, Primordius, DA, and Ra'den. I just wanna know your other fight(guessing Ji'kuhn).
    You an sit full time in melee at Ji-kun, the melee dps should all be behind the boss so you can easily sit to the side and not aoe them with CAW. Also on Megaera you can sit in melee if you do the "ignore blue head strategy".
    Last edited by Kolori; 2013-07-17 at 02:21 PM.


  20. #1280
    Finally got a response to Aladya and my question about mana returns:
    @Ghostcrawler To even out with an unskilled disc(are there any skilled???) using 8 Raptures, DP needs to return 1200% spirit,not 405.
    @Ady_Mx It's very hard to just look at mana %s and make class comparisons. Time to zero mana under a variety of scenarios is more relevant.
    @Ghostcrawler@Ady_Mx Then please compare how other healers drop spirit. MW Monks running 7k spirit and finish 100% mana is broken.
    @skattmanjoe We agree that MW and Disc are eschewing Spirit (at high ilevels) that other healers can't afford to do.


    Last edited by mcbubble; 2013-07-17 at 02:02 PM.

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