[Holy] Patch 5.4 PTR - Changes Discussion

[Deleted]

Sacred Shield always had decent throughput, looking at around 10% of total healing. I hear it doesn't scale so well, so that might be lower now, but you're able to keep it up on 3 targets now.

Where did you get this information from, regarding the 3 person shield?

[Blash]

30 sec duration / 10 sec cooldown. So maximum 3 shields applied before the first one drops.

[Deleted]

30 sec duration / 10 sec cooldown. So maximum 3 shields applied before the first one drops.

I don't find the build change for this new SS. Do you mean this talent?: "•Sacred Shield Overridde (Holy) (New) Paladin - Holy Spec."
But there is no tooltip , or am I too stupid?

EDIT: Sorry, I just jumped over Page 66 and didn't see the GC Twitter Comment. Now I understand Thanks.

Mh, could be an interesting change, but also does not solve our AoE problem. I don't like SH, even with those changes. But, as someone said before, keeping up 3 SS is not much better than rolling EF. I'm afraid of falling into an 3 HoPo LoD rotation, only refreshing SS after 10s and wasting mana by generating HoPo via spamming HR on spreaded raid members -.-

Furthermore I don't know which second stat will have the major benefit for us.

[Deleted]

nm somebody was faster.

[Absintheminded]

Do you have any numbers on this? From the numbers I have (using the 'old' SS values), a single sacred shield absorbs about as much as the IH generated from 3-4 Eternal Flames over a 30 second period (using 20% haste and 45% mastery @ ~36k spellpower)

[E] this is ignoring ALL the other numerous factors that ultimately go into the "which one is better" decision

No, you are assuming that every single shield, every 5 seconds will absorb damage. That would be an incorrect assumption. Not going to happen. IH bubbles from EF, however, can stay up and stack until damage is absorbed.

"It's not even close."

[Blash]

IH bubbles from EF, however, can stay up and stack until damage is absorbed.

Ticks from EF will no longer procs IH. So we are talking about a ~45k shield lasting 15 sec from the initial hit vs. a ~45k shield refreshed every 5 sec for 30 sec.

[Kyuuseishu]

Ticks from EF will no longer procs IH. So we are talking about a ~45k shield lasting 15 sec from the initial hit vs. a ~45k shield refreshed every 5 sec for 30 sec.

Well SS absorbs won't absorb as much as the current EF rolling. Exactly due to the reasoning of Absinthe, but since it no longer exists its probably best to stop working in the previous patch.

[Deleted]

There is no point comparing new SS with current EF. The new SS will beat the new EF on any fights with either a lot of constant raid damage and/or fights with 2 tanks.

That said our burst healing will also become lower if we pick SS instead of EF as we will have to use LoD during Holy Avenger instead.

[TenDance]

I kind of like the direction where selfless healer is going. I can't see why the naming would make any sense for holy, but the playstyle might be something to look forward to. SS had been just boring, no decisionmaking involved, and EF had been effective, but not that fun. Faster ressourcegeneration with judgements, filled with heals inbetween... looks nice. And finally I can use the **** out of holy avenger in situations where HR isn't an option! Wasting HR just to gain those three HoPos just felt bad... and yes, spread out healing isn't that rare in 10's.

[Absintheminded]

Are you kidding me? Of course it's relavent to compare the two. The current EF is much better and effective that what the 5.4 SS is at the moment. Everything that has been changed for 5.4 up to this point is not sufficient compensation for the EF nerf, not yet. That's precisely why I'm comparing them.

[Freia]

I kind of like the direction where selfless healer is going. I can't see why the naming would make any sense for holy, but the playstyle might be something to look forward to. SS had been just boring, no decisionmaking involved, and EF had been effective, but not that fun. Faster ressourcegeneration with judgements, filled with heals inbetween... looks nice. And finally I can use the **** out of holy avenger in situations where HR isn't an option! Wasting HR just to gain those three HoPos just felt bad... and yes, spread out healing isn't that rare in 10's.

Spread out healing isn't that rare in any format.

[Kyuuseishu]

Are you kidding me? Of course it's relavent to compare the two. The current EF is much better and effective that what the 5.4 SS is at the moment. Everything that has been changed for 5.4 up to this point is not sufficient compensation for the EF nerf, not yet. That's precisely why I'm comparing them.

But they aren't going to force all of those buffs into the lvl45 tier talents, it would be a very poor decision on their half if it was to be so. They've atleast made SS more attractive with a larger target limit, and the inclusion of HR to selfless healer is not too bad either. Work with what we've got not what we had, chances are if it still isn't enough we probably won't see much more change to the 45 talents but see changes elsewhere.

[Absintheminded]

But they aren't going to force all of those buffs into the lvl45 tier talents, it would be a very poor decision on their half if it was to be so. They've atleast made SS more attractive with a larger target limit, and the inclusion of HR to selfless healer is not too bad either. Work with what we've got not what we had, chances are if it still isn't enough we probably won't see much more change to the 45 talents but see changes elsewhere.

I would not disagree with what you've said, and I'm not saying that SS is bad. But I would disagree with anybody saying that the new SS will be an improvement over the current EF, and is why I chimed in. I would also think that the new EF will still compete with the new SS, considering you can HoT over twice as many people as the SS will cover and because of the timer on SS, possibly heal for more than SS will absorb still.

[monikasun88]

Glyph of Hand of Sacrifice Hand of Sacrifice no longer redirects damage to the Paladin. Major Glyph.

Does this mean that it's a 30% DR spell basically?

[Freia]

Does this mean that it's a 30% DR spell basically?

That is what it is looking like. I think they should have taken the damage transfer off baseline and had the glyph increase the damage reduction slightly and had that damage be transferred.

[pedrodelrey]

Yesterday i tested a Haste Build in PTR.The recents changes in some talents give me a hope that this is gonna work very well.
With 545 ilvl and mastery Bis itens, i reforged all to mastery and used haste enchants and gems(haste/Spi,Int/Spi,Spi).Also i got a 5% haste buff.All those things give me a HS and Judge close to 4 secs cd.And a used SH
With this values i can J(1HP)>HR(1HP)>HS(1HP)>LOD/WOG>(When u have 3 stacks of SH spare a HR or a DL on beacon)>J(1HP)>HS(1HP)>LOD/WOG.
If u preffer u can put CS on the rotation too.
The HoPo generating its so high.
If GC give us a Smart heal on Judge i certanly will use SH.But at the time i am divided.

Also i dont know its have some problem in PTR.But when i test Mastery build with EF my IH its my seventh Heal. O.o

[pallyopness]

you should be divided...that is the goal here....for all talents to be appealing, no clear cut winner. For the life of me I can't see why any holy pally would be complaining with the changes as they sit now. The SH buffs to judgements giving HoPo and holy radiance included will be rather amazing imo. Three sacred shields, really? and eternal flame which I honestly hated to use in the first place with a nerf to IH which will still be strong. I much prefer working for my heals than an auto heal like IH to flame ticks.

I think people are too set in the IH coming off ticks and wont open their eyes to what doors got opened. The haste change alone is amazing and cpl that with SH or SS I dont see an issue. If anything I believe EF will be the weakest of the 3.

[Dubalicious]

But I would disagree with anybody saying that the new SS will be an improvement over the current EF, and is why I chimed in.

Well the claim was actually that it "wouldn't even be close" which is impossible to have any actual data to support, so we might as well wait until we can test and see how the numbers end up. And like I said, there are a TON of factors that are going to factor in to which of the T45 talents are ultimately the best choice for particular situations/encounters. I'm actually excited to attempt to math it all out, we'll see how long that lasts =p

Yesterday i tested a Haste Build in PTR.The recents changes in some talents give me a hope that this is gonna work very well.
With 545 ilvl and mastery Bis itens, i reforged all to mastery and used haste enchants and gems(haste/Spi,Int/Spi,Spi).Also i got a 5% haste buff.All those things give me a HS and Judge close to 4 secs cd.

Are you saying you reforged all mastery to haste, or left the mastery? In order to get to a 4second cooldown you pretty much need to allocate all your resources to haste (you would need 50% not including SoI)

you should be divided...that is the goal here....for all talents to be appealing, no clear cut winner. For the life of me I can't see why any holy pally would be complaining with the changes as they sit now.

I think you're spot on here tbh. The only complaint I have is that I'm ready to do some testing now! (well it would be nice to have the actual tooltip for SS too)

I think people are too set in the IH coming off ticks and wont open their eyes to what doors got opened. The haste change alone is amazing and cpl that with SH or SS I dont see an issue. If anything I believe EF will be the weakest of the 3.

I'm not convinced the SoB change will make haste appealing enough to really go after it, but it's still a good change and something we've been asking to be addressed. I definitely think EF could end up being the weakest of the 3 in a lot of situations (especially in 25 mans where healing comps are pretty diverse, do we really NEED a HoT? I could see the beacon transfer of this keeping it competitive numbers-wise though)

[Xern]

For the life of me I can't see why any holy pally would be complaining with the changes as they sit now.

Because we can't compete with other healers on the PTR. So far we've lost regen on the fights where we can melee and also lost HPS due to the EF+IH nerf.

The SH buffs to judgements giving HoPo and holy radiance included will be rather amazing imo.

It might be amazing in pvp, but when you have the choice of judging for 1hp or casting HR for 1hp (And heals/IH) while still having EF... The choice is quite clear. You'd literally have to buff it in a way Kolori suggested (10k IH shields on the raid) or something for it to be good.

eternal flame which I honestly hated to use in the first place with a nerf to IH which will still be strong. I much prefer working for my heals than an auto heal like IH to flame ticks.

EF will still be "strong" as you said which is one of the reasons why SH will be dumpster material as it is. But I gotta admit I find it somewhat funny how you consider EF a cheap way to auto heal when the alternative is a perfect example of a fire and forget heal... Pretty much the opposite of "working" for your heals.

[pallyopness]

Because we can't compete with other healers on the PTR. So far we've lost regen on the fights where we can melee and also lost HPS due to the EF+IH nerf.



It might be amazing in pvp, but when you have the choice of judging for 1hp or casting HR for 1hp (And heals/IH) while still having EF... The choice is quite clear. You'd literally have to buff it in a way Kolori suggested (10k IH shields on the raid) or something for it to be good.



EF will still be "strong" as you said which is one of the reasons why SH will be dumpster material as it is. But I gotta admit I find it somewhat funny how you consider EF a cheap way to auto heal when the alternative is a perfect example of a fire and forget heal... Pretty much the opposite of "working" for your heals.

SH will not be dumpster material when 5.4 goes live. If you base numbers off of a few pally healers I feel sorry for you. Some pallies can do other talents far better than others. Would love to know the sample pool and the "numbers" you are seeing on ptr. You are making a decision based on VERY LITTLE true evidence. For the record, I prefer and have always preferred selfless healer style of healing. But sorry if I won't nerf my heroic guilds progression due to knowing the limitation of SH right now in 5.3

oh and lost regen? well SH makes mana costs on anything worthwhile drop. Thus, you consume less mana on your casts and dont need to regen as much? Once again, dont see a problem, oh and to top it off now you dont have to stand in melee range. So I repeat...where is the problem here?

Seems to me people are trying to continue the same "style" of healing out of stubbornness. The class is changing, you must adapt to be a great healer, I would suggest more adapting and less "stuck in the mud" mentality

As it sits now, and it's not even close, I will be going haste build SH in 5.4.