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  1. #1501
    I tried Selfless Healer today in the PTR, and it just didn't feel right, and it's not because judging is useless.
    It just feels that it will only ever be used as a one SH buff ( I don't see it ever being used a 3 SH buff)...I say this because I almost always cast another holy radiance, divine plea, or flash within the ~5-6 seconds of CD between each judge. I tried to do HS and Holy Light...but it just doesn't feel right.

    I also tested Sacred Shield. That just feels wierd. It's basically a timer: every 10 seconds, reapply to a new character.
    Feels a little like my monk with renewing mists.

    I dunno...just feels very un-paly-like.

  2. #1502
    also SS does the same healing in both mastery and haste builds. haste build should add a few extra ticks to SS correct?

  3. #1503
    Quote Originally Posted by Aladya View Post
    How did you add that much mastery shielding?
    Because I made a 1.mastery multiplier then added them... Let me fix that... Ratios will be similar.

    Ugh. I am fail and tired. Going over it all again.
    Last edited by bouchbagette; 2013-07-20 at 06:43 AM.
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  4. #1504
    you also have the hot portion of eternal flame adding mastery buff under eternal flame total

  5. #1505
    Should be correct now.

    Now that my numbers are correct you can see the output penalty you pay for judging. It is nice to get a 20% boost to your next HR but comes at a price.

    EF also still looks competitive...

    SS issue has to do with weaving into your heals but then again healing rotations are hardly raid simulators. Also you can see SS per cast is even just below an EF for total healing. With a "rotation we are getting out an EF out every 6-7sec. SS is 10sec and heals less. Unless of course you are not using HRx2 after HS.

    Also, EF still has more total healing than LoD...

    One positive i see is the SH rotation with raid buffs and trinket procs is sustainable forever, but so is holy light spam...
    Last edited by bouchbagette; 2013-07-20 at 07:21 AM.
    Full Spectrum Guild: #1 Two Night Guild in the US. http://www.fullspectrumguild.com/
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  6. #1506
    Quote Originally Posted by bouchbagette View Post
    Also, EF still has more total healing than LoD...
    No, it does not. While EF in itself would outheal LoD it only happens during no overheal, EF isn't a smart heal and LoD can be taken with something else.

    In a much more realistic situation, LoD>EF head on and LoD can be taken with another talent.

  7. #1507
    How were the Paladin changes for the PTR tests? Didn't get a chance to see as I was away.

  8. #1508
    Quote Originally Posted by Floopa View Post
    How were the Paladin changes for the PTR tests? Didn't get a chance to see as I was away.
    Only did Spoils of Pandaria, but didn't really like the Paladin changes. I didn't like the fight either sadly.

    1) EF was dead.
    2) SS was pretty ok. It felt fine in 10 man where it covers 3/10 people and LoD hitting 6/10 people while healing for nothing also felt more of a bonus spell rather then a finisher.
    3) SF (+haste) felt more active but it felt really poor, lets face it Paladins need their mastery.

    Overall, its much much worse then live. I don't see us going anywhere @ 25 man hc.There is no reason any guild would use a Holy Paladin there atm unless the encounter needs a BoP or something.
    As for 10 man, I don't see why you'd use anything except Disc+Mw.

    So all in all, it was a pretty bad day.
    Last edited by Aladya; 2013-07-20 at 09:36 AM.

  9. #1509
    Quote Originally Posted by Aladya View Post
    O
    3) SF (+haste) felt more active but it felt really poor, lets face it Paladins need their mastery.
    What would you think about SF + Mastery? I tried it last night for the first test. My thinking behind not taking Haste and hence go Matery is that you have 2 HP generators (HS+J) and for every J you would boost you next HR/DL and give you 35%? haste anyway which would reduce the value of Haste anyway. Together with the 2P t16 HR or DL really kicks in hard.
    The resulting rotation would also be a bit more mana friendly an thus might allow us to go for a bit less spirit (have no numbers on that).
    What I did was basically HS/J on CD use HR/DL as fillers and pump out LoD (with DP talent) to Mastery blanket the raid. If you track IH on ppl you can make sure that it doesnt fall off during low/no dmg phases.

    I tried SS a bit too (with old Mastery build) but found it going to waste too often on the first test encounter last night.

    Also HS and J are getting reduced by haste but it seems its only reduced by your actual Haste rating and buffs like the 10% melee haste doesnt seem to push it (correct me if I am wrong).

  10. #1510
    Quote Originally Posted by Tungzten View Post

    Also HS and J are getting reduced by haste but it seems its only reduced by your actual Haste rating and buffs like the 10% melee haste doesnt seem to push it (correct me if I am wrong).
    I think you're right, at least it doesn't help for prot or retri. Only pure haste rating work to lower it.

  11. #1511
    Quote Originally Posted by bouchbagette View Post
    "Blog" post is at: http://fullspectrumholypally.wordpress.com/ if it is easier to read.
    We ran double holy paladin yesterday and while I cant really find the flaw in your wall of numbers I can safely say that there is something wrong with it. I was running a mastery build while the other holy paladin, Xern, was running pure haste (less spirit than me). The rotation we both used is HS HR HR LOD SS and while haste was very very close it was not better than mastery and it will be even worse in a 25 man setting and on a longer fight (Thok was like a 4-5min fight).

    Actually nvm, you asume no overhealing, on Thok IH did between 5-10% overhealing while the healing spells did between 35% (holy prism) and 60% (holy radiance).
    Last edited by Pacer; 2013-07-20 at 11:33 AM.

  12. #1512
    First boss was useless so no point mentioning that, but for the second boss we ran 2 paladins + 1 shaman. Didn't have much time to test as the boss was very easy, I only tried the build which I considered the best: SH, full mastery, minimum spirit, J->hr->HS->LoD. In 550 gear I would have 23k mastery(with might), 12k spirit(more of this needs to be reforged to haste as i was full mana almost all the time). The other paladin went for SS, obviously it was the first time we were playing those builds so there could of been mistakes, but SH just destroyed SS in term of HPS and mana efficiency. Think he was at 20% mana when I was at 80% so in my mind SS is not competitive in it's current form, at least not on a fight where we can be stacked full time like Thok the Bloodthirsty.

    Now due to the fact that we were 3 healing a fight that seems designed for 2 healers the hps was not that high, I did 130k(61% overhealing) not including guardian because for some reason the healing done by it does not show up on skada and I forgot to log and see if WoL displays it properly.
    I didn't get to test the haste SH build because it was late but I just don't see any way it would be better than mastery SH.

    Also we are still far behind compared to our live version, I need to see the 25 man testing first but I think it's safe to assume that we still need a slight buff, ofc with the priest and MW nerfs we might be competitive but that remains to be seen after more testing.


  13. #1513
    Quote Originally Posted by Kolori View Post
    Also we are still far behind compared to our live version, I need to see the 25 man testing first but I think it's safe to assume that we still need a slight buff, ofc with the priest and MW nerfs we might be competitive but that remains to be seen after more testing.
    Problem here is that the Mana Tea nerf isn't going to nerf MWs at all, and it screw over MWs in PvP so they wont put that change through. They'll need to buff Paladins a bit more though, I agree. What was your HS cd with your haste?

  14. #1514
    Quote Originally Posted by Kolori View Post
    First boss was useless so no point mentioning that, but for the second boss we ran 2 paladins + 1 shaman. Didn't have much time to test as the boss was very easy, I only tried the build which I considered the best: SH, full mastery, minimum spirit, J->hr->HS->LoD. In 550 gear I would have 23k mastery(with might), 12k spirit(more of this needs to be reforged to haste as i was full mana almost all the time). The other paladin went for SS, obviously it was the first time we were playing those builds so there could of been mistakes, but SH just destroyed SS in term of HPS and mana efficiency. Think he was at 20% mana when I was at 80% so in my mind SS is not competitive in it's current form, at least not on a fight where we can be stacked full time like Thok the Bloodthirsty.

    Now due to the fact that we were 3 healing a fight that seems designed for 2 healers the hps was not that high, I did 130k(61% overhealing) not including guardian because for some reason the healing done by it does not show up on skada and I forgot to log and see if WoL displays it properly.
    I didn't get to test the haste SH build because it was late but I just don't see any way it would be better than mastery SH.

    Also we are still far behind compared to our live version, I need to see the 25 man testing first but I think it's safe to assume that we still need a slight buff, ofc with the priest and MW nerfs we might be competitive but that remains to be seen after more testing.
    130k hps sounds too good to be true, unless you were staying in phase 1 for ages? Guardian would have done fuck all to your healing, 1 HR will make it go away atm. I do find it interesting that you say you could compete with a J->hr->HS->LoD rotation, if that is the case we might be better off going full mastery + haste and be like monks and have 5000 spirit.

  15. #1515
    Both tests seem to be heavily based on a HR rotation. It would be interesting to see the results on spread fights that SoO supposedly has in abundance.

    On stacked fights mastery is, of course, still going to be very strong. We can still roll shields with HR and Daybreak and it's probably still the best way we have of 'sniping' heals for hps purposes. Spread fights should be a different matter. We used EF to roll shields there and with this gone rolling mastery will be near impossible on a spread fight, weakening mastery in its own right without even thinking about haste. In these kind of fights the extra ticks afford by haste to EF / SS may well win out.

    In short, on fights we can stack I think the 5.3 style of overhealing for shields will still win out. Those spread fights will be a more interesting test of haste versus mastery.
    Last edited by Pasture; 2013-07-20 at 12:33 PM.

  16. #1516
    Most groups were staying in p1 for a long time, but staying in p1 a long time makes instant casts (or super fast casts) extremely effective. After 7~ stacks a Priest can no longer use Atonement, or PoH, a Shaman can no longer use their heals apart from RT: in this scenario a Druid, Paladin and Monk are going to shine with the playstyle Kolori was using. I don't think the style would work very well on 'non' stack up fights. Especially those which have "range targetted" mechanics which drop Paladins stacking in melee for HR healing.

  17. #1517
    Quote Originally Posted by Pacer View Post
    130k hps sounds too good to be true, unless you were staying in phase 1 for ages? Guardian would have done fuck all to your healing, 1 HR will make it go away atm. I do find it interesting that you say you could compete with a J->hr->HS->LoD rotation, if that is the case we might be better off going full mastery + haste and be like monks and have 5000 spirit.
    We did about 6-7 stacks each P1, only time I deviated from the rotation was when I had cd's up and at the end cause I was full mana so could just spam 3xHR->LoD. The healing breakdown for me was IH 24.89M(50%), LoD 8.27M(16.6%), HR 5.25M(10.06%), HP 4.31M(8.7%), HS 3.06M(6.2%), BoL 2.33M(4.7%), Daybreak 1.17M(2.3%), SoI 212k(0.4%), GoAK 170k(0.3%), DL 65k(0.1%).

    @ Floopa
    Yes it does remain to be seen if it's competitive on fights where you are spread out, on 25 it should be because we can HR the melee, on 10 man it might be problematic. It will also be quite good on movement fights because you ony need to cast 1HR with 1 stack of SH every 5 seconds, all the other casts are instant.
    Last edited by Kolori; 2013-07-20 at 12:58 PM.


  18. #1518
    Quote Originally Posted by Kolori View Post
    We did about 6-7 stacks each P1, only time I deviated from the rotation was when I had cd's up and at the end cause I was full mana so could just spam 3xHR->LoD. The healing breakdown for me was IH 24.89M(50%), LoD 8.27M(16.6%), HR 5.25M(10.06%), HP 4.31M(8.7%), HS 3.06M(6.2%), BoL 2.33M(4.7%), Daybreak 1.17M(2.3%), SoI 212k(0.4%), GoAK 170k(0.3%), DL 65k(0.1%).

    @ Floopa
    Yes it does remain to be seen if it's competitive on fights where you are spread out, on 25 it should be because we can HR the melee, on 10 man it might be problematic. It will also be quite good on movement fights because you ony need to cast 1HR with 1 stack of SH every 5 seconds, all the other casts are instant.
    Yeah, it sounds like a very viable way of playing the spec: only thing I wonder is if with a Disc Priest present (and a Druid) if you'll be doing too much OHing due to the absorption shields + Rejuv (w/ Genesis). Not to mention the glory which will be Healing Rain in 25 man.

  19. #1519
    Quote Originally Posted by Kolori View Post
    The healing breakdown for me was IH 24.89M(50%),
    I feel like this is just asking for more mastery nerfs.

  20. #1520
    Quote Originally Posted by Pasture View Post
    I feel like this is just asking for more mastery nerfs.
    Assuming no over heal (Aladaya pointed out LoD>EF due to overheal/not smart heal, of which I agree) EF is still our top through put rotation AFTER the nerf. Both SH and SS usage without any over heal "sim" below EF still.

    So we have still been nerfed and I feel as though it is smoke and mirrors with them making SS and SH interesting but not more powerful than what they already nerfed. So as I see it we are still nerfed overall (other than Gaurdian buff).

    As for mana:

    Divine plea live grats 36k mana per 2min. PTR I am getting 60k mana with 15k spirit. So the difference is 24k mana per 2min over Live. That is 1000mp5 so depending on what SoI is worth that is our regen change.
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