[Holy] Patch 5.4 PTR - Changes Discussion

[Freia]

I agree with this. Blizzard wanted glyphs to be optional but the HoS glyph just won't be optional in the slighest. The damage transfer should have been removed completely, should not have been a glyph. Also Unbreakable Spirit should include HoS.

The damage portion has a pretty big benefit in pvp, if they just completely got rid of it then it would have further hurt holy in pvp. I think they could have removed it baseline and like added another 5-10% to the effect and made that additional DR a damage transfer, but that may have made the glyph mandatory as well.

[Deleted]

@Pacer. You got heavily outhealed by a resto shaman in an LFR(forced 496 i think?) encounter that barely doing any dmg(though you did 3 heal). How is that "pretty good"? Just wait for HC 25 testing, you might be shocked how bad it is.

Yes we were in ilvl 496 and I would be at arround 125k hps without the determination buff which is not bad considering the item level. I would honestly love to heal these encounters with some healers who had a clue, the other holy paladin was talking to me through google translate and asking about some "cure", he was not using any lvl 45 or lvl 75 talent so I just linked him the selfless healer talent. The resto shaman on the other hand was better hps wise but he could be just as bad and if that is the case resto shamans needs severe nerfs. Lets face it 180k hps in ilvl 496 is fucking rediculous (yes even with the lfr buff).

Either way Im of the opinion that we still need slight buffs, shamans needs bigs nerfs on stack encounters and I cant really compare the other classes yet. The damage on this fight was really high considering it was lfr, the raid was barely ever topped but that could just be because half the healers sucked ass and/or was afk.

[Deleted]

The damage portion has a pretty big benefit in pvp, if they just completely got rid of it then it would have further hurt holy in pvp. I think they could have removed it baseline and like added another 5-10% to the effect and made that additional DR a damage transfer, but that may have made the glyph mandatory as well.

They make spells behave slightly differently in PvE and PvP all the time. Why could they not have made the transfer only happen from damage caused by players? Mandatory glyph is bad and the damage transfer is outdated.

[Freia]

They make spells behave slightly differently in PvE and PvP all the time. Why could they not have made the transfer only happen from damage caused by players? Mandatory glyph is bad and the damage transfer is outdated.

They don't "all the time", it takes a while before they give up on a spell and just separate them.

[Lumineux]

HoS having its penalty is way outdated sure(but you add a 100% mandatory glyph for progression), + Monks getting more hps(out of expel harm) is surely not intended? Same for druids, why would you add more HPS to dominant already classes.

Yeah I have no idea what the fuck blizzard is thinking giving a permanent efflorescence to resto druids as a glyph. While I do like HoS glyph and will gladly use it (won't have trouble finding a spot for it) it should be baseline, at least for holy pallies. And then have a glyph option for it to transfer damage (as it's used for it's damage transfer to break CC in pvp sometimes).

I liked stacking haste and doing SH rotation (I just feel like a haste build is more fun), but it's a lot of effort and precision for a mediocre/average output. Compared to say, a druid who just has to put down a shroom and stand there at full health and they do healing. Or a shaman just throws down healing rain, healing tide, and spams chain heal and does 180k hps (which is RIDICULOUS by the way). I'm sitting there stressing to hit everything perfectly at the exact right moment and I'm barely keeping up, if I'm not already behind.

Hopefully we go through another numbers pass. 8% more healing to LoD was shit nothing.

[Taygete]

We did about 6-7 stacks each P1, only time I deviated from the rotation was when I had cd's up and at the end cause I was full mana so could just spam 3xHR->LoD. The healing breakdown for me was IH 24.89M(50%), LoD 8.27M(16.6%), HR 5.25M(10.06%), HP 4.31M(8.7%), HS 3.06M(6.2%), BoL 2.33M(4.7%), Daybreak 1.17M(2.3%), SoI 212k(0.4%), GoAK 170k(0.3%), DL 65k(0.1%).

Has anyone tested 10 man with SH and heavy DL/HL usage?

[Freia]

Hopefully we go through another numbers pass. 8% more healing to LoD was shit nothing.

Pretty much. LoD needs something.

[Deleted]

I wouldn't say its just us needing a buff though, they need to put their foot down and nerf many mechanics from the other healing classes. 14 people Healing Rain can't go live on itself. Mistweaver/RestoDruid/H Priest output can't go live like that.

The problem is people get used to being overpowered. To give you a dps counterpart, mages and warlocks are so overpowered right now on the PTR its disgusting, yet the moment Blizzard touches their numbers they cry like no tomorrow.

[Floopa]

I wouldn't say its just us needing a buff though, they need to put their foot down and nerf many mechanics from the other healing classes. 14 people Healing Rain can't go live on itself. Mistweaver/RestoDruid/H Priest output can't go live like that.

The problem is people get used to being overpowered. To give you a dps counterpart, mages and warlocks are so overpowered right now on the PTR its disgusting, yet the moment Blizzard touches their numbers they cry like no tomorrow.

MW, Resto Druid and H Priest output needs to be insane to compete with the monster that is Discipline. That's just the truth of the matter. It's a complete joke that my 2 min CD (life cocoon) absorbs only 25%~ more than the typical PW:S of a 547~ geared Priest.

[Krekko]

They don't "all the time", it takes a while before they give up on a spell and just separate them.

Yeah, I'm finding it a stretch to think of them doing it "all the time" as well. They (sadly) hold onto the identical PvE/PvP inclusion of spells too much, IMO.

All spells should be separated by nature, if they're found to work both fine in PvE and PVP then so be it, but I hardly think it should be Vice versa, because they do take a long time to give up.

[Lumineux]

I wouldn't say its just us needing a buff though, they need to put their foot down and nerf many mechanics from the other healing classes. 14 people Healing Rain can't go live on itself. Mistweaver/RestoDruid/H Priest output can't go live like that.

The problem is people get used to being overpowered. To give you a dps counterpart, mages and warlocks are so overpowered right now on the PTR its disgusting, yet the moment Blizzard touches their numbers they cry like no tomorrow.

Well like you said though, if they start nerfing numbers of resto druids/resto shammies/holy priests the tears would flow like no tomorrow. If they're not going to nerf them then they need to buff us so we're on par.

[Tiberria]

Or a shaman just throws down healing rain, healing tide, and spams chain heal and does 180k hps (which is RIDICULOUS by the way). I'm sitting there stressing to hit everything perfectly at the exact right moment and I'm barely keeping up, if I'm not already behind.

It's a stacked healing fight - the intent is for Shaman to dominate those fights - their throughput will fall way off outside of stacked fights. On top of that, the overhealing of that Shaman was only 50% which is extremely low for 25 man let alone LFR. In 25 man heroic on live, Shaman overhealing is typically closer to 75%. As a result, his output was inflated by unrealistic mastery scaling. That won't happen on live at 540+ ilvl.

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I wouldn't say its just us needing a buff though, they need to put their foot down and nerf many mechanics from the other healing classes. 14 people Healing Rain can't go live on itself. Mistweaver/RestoDruid/H Priest output can't go live like that.

The problem is people get used to being overpowered. To give you a dps counterpart, mages and warlocks are so overpowered right now on the PTR its disgusting, yet the moment Blizzard touches their numbers they cry like no tomorrow.

That log is of a stacked healing fight where a Paladin is only 20% below a Shaman, and that is with an unreasonably low amount of overhealing. On live, with normal ilvls and normal overhealing numbers, Shaman mastery contribution will go down, and the prominence of absorbs will go up. If that was a heroic encounter, with 6 competent healers, I don't even know that the Shaman would be even be topping meters on a stacked fight. If anything, to me, that log shows that Paladin stacked output is probably too high and could use a nerf.

[Lumineux]

It's a stacked healing fight - the intent is for Shaman to dominate those fights - their throughput will fall way off outside of stacked fights. On top of that, the overhealing of that Shaman was only 50% which is extremely low for 25 man let alone LFR. In 25 man heroic on live, Shaman overhealing is typically closer to 75%. As a result, his output was inflated by unrealistic mastery scaling. That won't happen on live at 540+ ilvl.

This was in LFR where we were scaled down to 496 gear. I shudder to think was a ievel 540 shaman with more skill can do. And I get that they are going to be the best at stacked healing, but doing almost half the entire healing out of 6 healers? I wish I would've taken a screenshot, because it was absurd. Don't act like it isn't ridiculous to be doing 180k hps in 496 gear, because it is.

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If anything, to me, that log shows that Paladin stacked output is probably too high and could use a nerf.

Are you joking? This guy...God forbid a paladin is only 20% below a shaman. What the hell more do you want? to be 50% above everyone else for all stacked fights? I guess this is what Aladya is referring to when people get a taste of being overpowered on PTR.

[Deleted]

It's a stacked healing fight - the intent is for Shaman to dominate those fights - their throughput will fall way off outside of stacked fights. On top of that, the overhealing of that Shaman was only 50% which is extremely low for 25 man let alone LFR. In 25 man heroic on live, Shaman overhealing is typically closer to 75%. As a result, his output was inflated by unrealistic mastery scaling. That won't happen on live at 540+ ilvl.

Im sorry I have no idea what you just said. This shaman was doing 180k healing per second in ilvl 496, while I am not too aware of what a good shaman is I am certian that guy is not very good (just look at riptide uptime). If you think its okay that a bad shaman in item level 496 can do that much healing on a fight where only 40% of the raid is stacked up you are delusional.

[Tiberria]

This was in LFR where we were scaled down to 496 gear. I shudder to think was a ievel 540 shaman with more skill can do. And I get that they are going to be the best at stacked healing, but doing almost half the entire healing out of 6 healers? I wish I would've taken a screenshot, because it was absurd. Don't act like it isn't ridiculous to be doing 180k hps in 496 gear, because it is.

The numbers would go down, because if everyone had 540+ ilvl, overhealing would be 70%+ (even if it was a heroic boss instead of LFR). Overhealing was never significantly below that at any point in ToT, which massively affects the value and contribution of Shaman mastery.

[Freia]

Seriously? 136k with 2 stacks of determination is high but the shaman's output isn't? Give me a break.

[Deleted]

It's a stacked healing fight - the intent is for Shaman to dominate those fights - their throughput will fall way off outside of stacked fights. On top of that, the overhealing of that Shaman was only 50% which is extremely low for 25 man let alone LFR. In 25 man heroic on live, Shaman overhealing is typically closer to 75%. As a result, his output was inflated by unrealistic mastery scaling. That won't happen on live at 540+ ilvl.

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That log is of a stacked healing fight where a Paladin is only 20% below a Shaman, and that is with an unreasonably low amount of overhealing. On live, with normal ilvls and normal overhealing numbers, Shaman mastery contribution will go down, and the prominence of absorbs will go up. If that was a heroic encounter, with 6 competent healers, I don't even know that the Shaman would be even be topping meters on a stacked fight. If anything, to me, that log shows that Paladin stacked output is probably too high and could use a nerf.

As i said..

[Tiberria]

Im sorry I have no idea what you just said. This shaman was doing 180k healing per second in ilvl 496, while I am not too aware of what a good shaman is I am certian that guy is not very good (just look at riptide uptime). If you think its okay that a bad shaman in item level 496 can do that much healing on a fight where only 40% of the raid is stacked up you are delusional.

If only a portion of the raid was stacked up like you claim, Healing Rain should barely be doing healing than it does on live in that situation. The base healing of the spell was not increased, only the healing on 6+ targets. The real difference between that log and what you see on live is that in most 25 man situations, Shaman are doing 70%+ overheal and Healing Rain is doing 85%+ overheal. In that log, it was only 57% HR overheal, 50% overall overheal. That is actually what the main difference is that makes it look so strong in that log, not the buff it was given.

[Deleted]

If only a portion of the raid was stacked up like you claim, Healing Rain should barely be doing healing than it does on live in that situation. The base healing of the spell was not increased, only the healing on 6+ targets. The real difference between that log and what you see on live is that in most 25 man situations, Shaman are doing 70%+ overheal and Healing Rain is doing 85%+ overheal. In that log, it was only 57% HR overheal, 50% overall overheal. That is actually what the main difference is that makes it look so strong in that log, not the buff it was given.

25 times 0,4 equals 10 so yes of couse it did more healing than on live. Obviously that is just an estimate but people were all over the place. Healing rain is not the only offender, HTT and AG (which is almost equal on live) can now both be used, adding another 15% healing.

[Isheria]

There's a difference between being better than other classes at stacked healing and being completely overpowered at it like shamans are on ptr. I can pretty much tell you right now if no changes are made on a stacked up fight you kick all the healers and replace them with resto shamans cause the difference is massive.

There are some other outlying classes as well though, like holy priests with t16 4p getting 100k+ sanctuary ticks or resto druids that have perma efflo up that costs no mana to put and you can move freely with 0 mana cost as well, never seen a more overpowered glyph than this for the record.