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  1. #141
    Mechagnome Joathen's Avatar
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    In PvP this is ruinous. That new SS? If you're at 30% you're already far in the red-zone to be locked down and executed. Bad enough that Holydins are prone to spell lock out and chain CC, but let's nerf their prime finisher which composes most of their healing in arenas. I swear, some people got all excited because the Inq uptime changes and the addition of the new Turn Evil but those two "buffs" (I missed the snare from Burden because my SoT ticks would keep people in combat, out of invis', etc,) and Blizz seems to think that justifies nerfing a already subpar PvP healer into the ground.

    Edit: How about they cut the cast time of Holy Light by 60% to compensate. *Rolls eyes* Screw us out of our absorb shield and our stronger instant heal? Gee, guess I should reroll MistWeaver or Disc.

  2. #142
    The Patient Piitz's Avatar
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    If you now want to force us to Judge on cooldown again, atleast make so Judge returns mana or gives us 1 holy power, or both.
    The nerfs are not needed tbh. Since the raid cd buffs came in 5.3 holydins have fallen behinde quite much. (Atleast according to logs and raidbots (http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Spec_Scor...00000000111111)

    Personally I think blizzard should rethink the choices they've made to do. Tho it's still the early change of the PTR the only positive thing atm is the change to divine plea and im really worried that we are becoming the new resto shamans.

  3. #143
    blanketing EF is the most boring shit ever, totally contradicts the healing ethos of the class. happy if these nerfs means we won't be doing it any more.

  4. #144
    Pandaren Monk Freia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ylera View Post
    blanketing EF is the most boring shit ever, totally contradicts the healing ethos of the class. happy if these nerfs means we won't be doing it any more.
    Please enlighten me on what the healing ethos of Holy Paladins is, because it really doesn't seem like we have much of one since the push to make us more than a tank healer. It is something blizzard has seemed to be struggling with. Quite frankly right now losing EF blanketing would just push us to spamming light of dawn which is also not fun either and requires less thought than EF blanketing.
    Last edited by Freia; 2013-06-21 at 01:31 PM.

  5. #145
    What about :

    - SH : spending 1 HoPo gives us 1 SH stack (instead of the judgment BS)
    - EF : gives a hot to both EF and LoD (with or without the mastery bubble if the numbers match with the other talents)
    - SS : spending 1 HoPo gives us 1 stack of SS which we could use on anyone, lasts 30s and doesn't stack (new shields overwrite the old ones), so that we could blanket the raid with 1 stack shields or focus on tanks and use several stacks on them (lets say up to 3).

    This way we could choose between faster/bigger heals, hots or shields, and we would use WoG or LoD depending on the situation, not throughput.
    Last edited by NikJenkins; 2013-06-21 at 01:49 PM.

  6. #146
    Updated OP:
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    Intent behind the Eternal Flame change

    We’ve made some changes to Eternal Flame because we feel the talent was being overrepresented within the Holy Paladin population.

    Our intent for was for Holy Paladins to pick Selfless Healer if they like to Judge, Eternal Flame if they like heal-over-time spells, and Sacred Shield if they liked damage absorb shields. As it worked out, most every Holy paladin chose Eternal Flame, and we don’t want every Holy paladin to be a heal-over-time machine. (That’s a niche best served by Restoration Druids and Holy Priests.)

    We don’t think Holy Paladin’s healing throughput is too high overall (though we’ll gather more information from testing on the 5.4 PTR), so our intent is not to nerf but to reduce reliance on Eternal Flame. One of the biggest problem with Eternal Flame is the way it interacts with the Illuminated Healing mastery, which turns the heal-over-time spell into a potent shield as well. If needed, we will compensate by buffing healing elsewhere.

    Our plans for now, are to revert the nerf that was done to the initial healing component of Eternal Flame, but we are unlikely to change the Illuminated Healing back to the way it was.

    Sacred Shield

    Regarding Sacred Shield, we tried giving the talent as a baseline ability to Protection, but we’re unhappy with that experiment and are likely to revert the change. We agree that the current (old) version of Sacred Shield is more attractive to Holy than the (new) version. We also would likely have to nerf Protection to compensate for getting Holy Shield in addition to another talent. Overall, we think the current (old) version of Sacred Shield is a better design. Perhaps we can still make Sacred Shield more attractive for Holy and Retribution, and make the other two talents (Selfless Healer, Eternal Flame) more attractive to Protection.

    Our goal

    We understand that Selfless Healer requires a certain playstyle that not every Holy paladin will find attractive. So we want to make Eternal Flame and Sacred Shield feel like viable talent choices as well.

    Mastery not benefiting from Execution Sentence or Light’s Hammer isn’t intended and probably just got caught in the change to make Eternal Flame’s heal-over-time not benefit with mastery. We will correct that.

    Remember, at this early stage in the PTR, our designers’ focus are on implementation changes (mechanics) first, and tuning changes (numbers) later. Your feedback at this stage will be more helpful to be focusing on the mechanics (e.g. “I liked using hots” or “I like to Judge and wish I could use Selfless Healer more”) and less on “OMG 30% nerf.”


    ---------- Post added 2013-06-21 at 02:57 PM ----------

    I feel like at least they're explaining their decisions which is nice, but they still present some idiocies like suggesting any sane Paladin would use Selfless Healer in its current state

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-21 at 02:59 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by NikJenkins View Post
    What about :

    - SH : spending 1 HoPo gives us 1 SH stack (instead of the judgment BS)
    - EF : gives a hot to both EF and LoD (with or without the mastery bubble if the numbers match with the other talents)
    - SS : spending 1 HoPo gives us 1 stack of SS which we could use on anyone, lasts 30s and doesn't stack (new shields overwrite the old ones), so that we could blanket the raid with 1 stack shields or focus on tanks and use several stacks on them (lets say up to 3).

    This way we could choose between faster/bigger heals, hots or shields, and we would use WoG or LoD depending on the situation, not throughput.
    Thats a good idea, but SS in particular would use a hell of a lot of GCDs in that state, but I do think they need to focus on making LoD more attractive rather than just nerfing EF into the ground, at least make it heal more than EF does

  7. #147
    Quote Originally Posted by Freia View Post
    Please enlighten me on what the healing ethos of Holy Paladins is, because it really doesn't seem like we have much of one since the push to make us more than a tank healer. It is something blizzard has seemed to be struggling with. Quite frankly right now losing EF blanketing would just push us to spamming light of dawn which is also not fun either and requires less thought than EF blanketing.
    Actualy I agree with the previous statement. I didn't reroll pally in TBC to hot stuff. I want to direct-heal stuff, HARD. Bah, if I wanted to hot, I'd go with druids or now with monks. But hey, I'm cool with it while hots are pumping mastery shields. Plus, on fights like last phase HC Lei Shen or other movement heavy encounters hots were a very good cushion.
    Another thing, and it is mostly for 10m HC, tank beacon offheal with hots on raid is a pretty nice thing too. I know it's not THAT big, but still, in a heroic enviroment every bit is precious.

    Now I don't know what do Blizz mean, when they talk about compensation, but thats clearly not what it's should be right now.
    SS is rubbish, may be if they remove the CD at all, I would consider it.
    They should buff ALL finishers, especialy LoD. Right now its only semi-good in 10s.
    I would realy much like to see judgement do healing, I dunno why, but I do! Seems like an iconic paladin ability not being used at all by a spec. What a shame!

    Also, whats up with our DA? I mean yeah, we can use it while we cast heals, but come on!
    I was butthurt through all of Heart of Fear because of all phisical aoe mechanics. Damn, at least give as a Divine Protection like gliph to make it work with phisical damage. Or better, make it place a full stacked mastery shield on all raid members as a bonus! It would scale very good with our gear (right now I can stack ~199k).

    This is coming form a 13/13H Hpally, btw.

  8. #148
    Quote Originally Posted by Freia View Post
    Please enlighten me on what the healing ethos of Holy Paladins is, because it really doesn't seem like we have much of one since the push to make us more than a tank healer. It is something blizzard has seemed to be struggling with. Quite frankly right now losing EF blanketing would just push us to spamming light of dawn which is also not fun either and requires less thought than EF blanketing.
    Strong, direct burst healing and strong utility is what I associate with holy paladins, and is what attracted me to the class in the first place. is just my personal preference really, i like to direct heal rather than rolling hots on everything. if i wanted to play with hots i'd play a tree.

    also, the change to DP is nice and all, but now it's just something we'll just mindlessly press every 2 mins. it was okay that we had to put a little thought into when we'd use it imo.
    Last edited by Ylera; 2013-06-21 at 02:13 PM.

  9. #149
    Pandaren Monk Freia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ylera View Post
    Strong, direct burst healing and strong utility is what I associate with holy paladins, and is what attracted me to the class in the first place. is just my personal preference really, i like to direct heal rather than rolling hots on everything. if i wanted to play with hots i'd play a tree.

    also, the change to DP is nice and all, but now it's just something we'll just mindlessly press every 2 mins. it was okay that we had to put a little thought into when we'd use it imo.
    They can nerf eternal flame blanketing to hell and we would still not be what you are describing. We would just be a class with weak raid heals who lack spread healing capabilities. We would struggle to keep the raid up during huge spikes of damage. And our single target healing is definitely not as strong as so many people make it out to be. Plus our utility is brought by every other paladin and other forms of it are brought by other classes.

    What you are asking for requires rework of the whole spec and more likely than not the other healing classes. Because seriously try to use strong direct heals on a target right now in raid and see how likely it is that the majority of that heal will actually be effective healing and not just snipped by smart splash heals of other classes.

    And the DP change was long overdue. So we can use it on cooldown without repercussion like almost every other healing class with their mana cooldowns.
    Last edited by Freia; 2013-06-21 at 02:50 PM.

  10. #150
    Quote Originally Posted by Xs View Post
    Thats a good idea, but SS in particular would use a hell of a lot of GCDs in that state
    That's probably true and we would rely on HS/WoG/CS, but I think it has to be usable on more than one target at a time and with some kind of resource management to make it interesting/fun, refreshing it every 30s is just lame (not thinking about it at all like the new one is even worse).

  11. #151
    Since the HOT Illuminated Healing is being removed, does anyone have the math on how much of a nerf this is?

  12. #152
    Quote Originally Posted by mcbubble View Post
    Since the HOT Illuminated Healing is being removed, does anyone have the math on how much of a nerf this is?
    Depends really, I think this effects 10's significantly more than 25's but its huge either way.

  13. #153
    Stood in the Fire Kyuuseishu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcbubble View Post
    Since the HOT Illuminated Healing is being removed, does anyone have the math on how much of a nerf this is?
    Rough maths, assuming eternal flame runs its entire duration without being refreshed on the target, with 40% mastery and 13 ticks of 4k per holy power per eternal flame duration its a loss of roughly 21k in shields per holy power spent on eternal flame.

    I haven't included crit's into this calculation as a note.

  14. #154
    Quote Originally Posted by mcbubble View Post
    Since the HOT Illuminated Healing is being removed, does anyone have the math on how much of a nerf this is?
    17% nerf to total healing.

    Do remember that the 17% nerf is absorb,the sort that can't be snipped by Druids/Monks/Priests.

    Edit. Maybe a bit less considering not every absorb is 100% consumed, and that i picked a fight on farm to do the math on. Its still a significant nerf.

    Edit2. Then again I did the math based on current gear and not 5.4 gear and I also didn't take into account some shields might expire before dmg is taken because of the lack of EF to roll. Its very hard to give an exact number as unlike dps you're not the only thing that matters in the grand scheme of things(I estimate some very sick Revivals in 25 man in 5.4).
    Last edited by Aladya; 2013-06-21 at 03:35 PM.

  15. #155
    17% nerf. Ouch.
    I haven't fully read the blue's post, but did they say they're looking to compensate us in some way?
    I fear they'll give us a % healing increase. Not what I really want.

  16. #156
    Pandaren Monk Freia's Avatar
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    Ghostcrawler made a tweet said they would compensate for the EF changes but no other details.

  17. #157
    I find it ironic that he says they have not even started on the number balancing yet they nerfed the initial heal of EF, isnt that exactly what number balancing is?

  18. #158
    Honestly even with compensation I don't think it will be enough to compete with the other healers getting buffs, paladins will do okay when all is said and done but why bring a weak DA (not to mention any utility a holy paladin have is brought by any other paladin) when you can have a 4-5mill tranq/hymn/revival?
    Last edited by Gilthresa; 2013-06-21 at 03:31 PM.

  19. #159
    Quote Originally Posted by Pacer View Post
    I find it ironic that he says they have not even started on the number balancing yet they nerfed the initial heal of EF, isnt that exactly what number balancing is?
    I think he meant the fine tuning, the EF change was just a slash to see if it was a good change, I assume made by someone on the team who has no idea about Paladins

  20. #160
    Honestly, I'm happy with the EF hot not proccing mastery. It was a mechanic that produced clunky results, purposefully sinking overheals into the raid. They should buff the actual hot 30-40% to compensate and have EF as the option for constant raid damage with an improved SS and LoD for the burst heal option. We'll still take EF for constant damage but we won't use it the way we use it now to sink overhealing into shields for every other fight too. That's an actual choice and it's good for the class as long as we're compensated.

    As for the SS buffs they might envisage, I'm not sure. Allow it to go on 2 targets for Holy and provide some kind of damage reduction for ret?

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