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  1. #1

    [Holy] Patch 5.4 PTR - Changes Discussion

    OP: http://www.mmo-champion.com/content/...TR-Build-17093
    Originally Posted by MMO-Champion
    Talents
    • Eternal Flame Consumes up to 3 Holy Power to place a protective Holy flame on a friendly target, which heals them for [ 5,538 + 49% [ 3,876 + 34.3% of Spell Power ] and an additional [ 508 + 5.85% of Spell Power ] every 3 sec for 30 sec. Healing increased per charge of Holy Power. The heal over time is increased by 100% if used on the Paladin. Replaces Word of Glory. Paladin - LvL 45 Talent. 1 Holy Power. 40 yd range. Instant. 1.5 sec cooldown.
    • Sacred Shield (New) Holy: When you or your Beacon of Light target falls below 30% health, that target gains Sacred Shield, absorbing 30% of their maximum health. Sacred Shield can only occur once every 2 minutes. Protection, Retribution: When you fall below 30% health, you gain Sacred Shield, absorbing 30% of your maximum health. Sacred Shield can only occur once every 2 minutes. Paladin - LvL 45 Talent. 40 yd range. 6 sec cooldown.
    • Sanctified Wrath Avenging Wrath lasts 50% longer and grants more frequent access to one of your abilities while it lasts. Holy Reduces the cooldown of Holy Shock by 50%. and increases the critical strike chance of Holy Shock by 20%. Protection Reduces the cooldown of Judgment by 50% 100%. Avenging Wrath also increases healing received by 20%. Retribution Reduces the cooldown of Hammer of Wrath by 50%. Paladin - LvL 75 Talent.
    • Selfless Healer Holy: Your successful Judgments reduce the cast time and mana cost of your next Flash of Light or Divine Light by 35% per stack and improves its effectiveness by 20% per stack when used to heal others. Stacks up to 3 times. Protection, Retribution: Your successful Judgments reduce the cast time and mana cost of your next Flash of Light by 35% per stack and improves its effectiveness by 20% per stack when used to heal others. Stacks up to 3 times. Paladin - LvL 45 Talent.

    Holy
    • Divine Plea You gain 12% of your total mana over 9 sec, but the amount healed by your healing spells is reduced by 50%. Paladin - Holy Spec. Instant. 2 min cooldown.



    Interesting changes, works out at about a 42% nerf to the WoG part of EF, quite a big hit and not sure if its really justified.
    Good to see them working to make the talent choices a bit less linear, although I don't see Tier 3 changing from cookie cutter EF, I can see the benefits for PvP though.
    The change to Sanctified Wrath might just be enough to make it worth thinking about, not convinced it'll beat out HA or DP still, but would be interesting to see your thoughts

    Nice to see them finally taking the MS off of DP, we should be able to drop more Spirit now and be a little less fight dependant, although SoI is still going to play a factor in that.

    Edit:
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    Intent behind the Eternal Flame change

    We’ve made some changes to Eternal Flame because we feel the talent was being overrepresented within the Holy Paladin population.

    Our intent for was for Holy Paladins to pick Selfless Healer if they like to Judge, Eternal Flame if they like heal-over-time spells, and Sacred Shield if they liked damage absorb shields. As it worked out, most every Holy paladin chose Eternal Flame, and we don’t want every Holy paladin to be a heal-over-time machine. (That’s a niche best served by Restoration Druids and Holy Priests.)

    We don’t think Holy Paladin’s healing throughput is too high overall (though we’ll gather more information from testing on the 5.4 PTR), so our intent is not to nerf but to reduce reliance on Eternal Flame. One of the biggest problem with Eternal Flame is the way it interacts with the Illuminated Healing mastery, which turns the heal-over-time spell into a potent shield as well. If needed, we will compensate by buffing healing elsewhere.

    Our plans for now, are to revert the nerf that was done to the initial healing component of Eternal Flame, but we are unlikely to change the Illuminated Healing back to the way it was.

    Sacred Shield

    Regarding Sacred Shield, we tried giving the talent as a baseline ability to Protection, but we’re unhappy with that experiment and are likely to revert the change. We agree that the current (old) version of Sacred Shield is more attractive to Holy than the (new) version. We also would likely have to nerf Protection to compensate for getting Holy Shield in addition to another talent. Overall, we think the current (old) version of Sacred Shield is a better design. Perhaps we can still make Sacred Shield more attractive for Holy and Retribution, and make the other two talents (Selfless Healer, Eternal Flame) more attractive to Protection.

    Our goal

    We understand that Selfless Healer requires a certain playstyle that not every Holy paladin will find attractive. So we want to make Eternal Flame and Sacred Shield feel like viable talent choices as well.

    Mastery not benefiting from Execution Sentence or Light’s Hammer isn’t intended and probably just got caught in the change to make Eternal Flame’s heal-over-time not benefit with mastery. We will correct that.

    Remember, at this early stage in the PTR, our designers’ focus are on implementation changes (mechanics) first, and tuning changes (numbers) later. Your feedback at this stage will be more helpful to be focusing on the mechanics (e.g. “I liked using hots” or “I like to Judge and wish I could use Selfless Healer more”) and less on “OMG 30% nerf.”
    Edit2:
    Originally Posted by Lore
    I just posted some info for Protection in another thread (link) but wanted to make sure we got the message across to Holy as well.

    We’ve gotten a lot of feedback from the Holy community that there’s too much of a difference between fights where you’re allowed to stand in melee and fights where you cannot. Seal of Insight is a large part of that problem. By removing the mana gains from SoI, we can balance Holy’s mana appropriately. We don’t think the overall impact will be too large, but just to be sure, we’re planning to buff Divine Plea up to 15% for slightly stronger mana-on-demand.

    As I mentioned in the other thread, the Glyph of the Battle Healer changes are largely due to how exceedingly powerful the glyph has become for Protection tanks. We do think it will still be useful in some situations, but we also recognize that many Paladins simply like the idea of healing through melee attacks, and that’s something we may explore more fully in the future. If we do, however, it will most likely not be through a glyph.

    In regards to the more general concerns about Holy throughput, we do still plan to buff Holy elsewhere to make up for the changes to Eternal Flame. We’re still discussing exactly what those changes will be (which is why you haven’t seen them yet), but to give a bit of insight, we’re not very likely to buff spells like Beacon of Light or Holy Radiance. When we do make changes, they’ll probably be to spells like Flash of Light, Divine Light, Light of Dawn, and Guardian of Ancient Kings.

    Again, please keep in mind that the PTR is a development environment, which quite often means you’ll see incomplete parts of overall changes as work continues. We really appreciate constructive and precise feedback about your concerns – letting us know exactly what is or isn’t working is a lot more effective than hyperbole. Thanks! (Source)
    Discussion starts here: http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...1#post21704434
    Last edited by Xs; 2013-07-09 at 11:31 PM. Reason: Links

  2. #2
    The Patient Kerfax's Avatar
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    I expected the nerfs to EF, but I still don't see it changing. Selfless healer is bad because it requires us to constantly use GCDs for something that doesn't directly do healing. As far as SS, I think the change makes it far worse than it was. I don't know if its intended to be a buff or a nerf, but that looks like a nerf to me for Holy and Prot.

    I definitely like the DP change though. Its very nice to not have to worry about using it during some downtime.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Kerfax View Post
    As far as SS, I think the change makes it far worse than it was. I don't know if its intended to be a buff or a nerf, but that looks like a nerf to me for Holy and Prot.
    For Prot they just made it in its current form baseline, so they can now have SS + any other tier 3 talent, so its just a flat buff to Prot, think its mainly aimed at making Prot able to move about a bit and not hugely effecting Ret/Holy since we don't take the talent, by the looks of it they'll change its name to Holy Shield or something similar.
    I don't see why you'd ever take it as Holy though, its going to be a massive nerf to your throughput for a fairly poor tank 'CD'.

    And yeah, it'll be nice to be able to fire off DP with trinkets and Arcane Torrent without having to worry about finding special places in the fight to weave it in.

  4. #4
    Stood in the Fire Kyuuseishu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kerfax View Post
    I expected the nerfs to EF, but I still don't see it changing. Selfless healer is bad because it requires us to constantly use GCDs for something that doesn't directly do healing. As far as SS, I think the change makes it far worse than it was. I don't know if its intended to be a buff or a nerf, but that looks like a nerf to me for Holy and Prot.

    I definitely like the DP change though. Its very nice to not have to worry about using it during some downtime.
    Prot gets the original one baseline now like they said they would a while back if they brought back the cata sacred shield

    Regardless after the mastery nerf I can't really see the scale of the EF nerf being justified, right now my EF heals about.. 96k initial in raids?, with that nerf it drops to about 68k which is pathetic for a finisher. I expected it don't get me wrong, but I never expected it to be of that scale.

  5. #5
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    I see the effort, I really do. They want us to move away from IH healing only, and make the other options (including Sanctified Wrath) viable.

    But I'm still not convinced that they are really changing anything other than lowering our healing. EF really, really just needs to be a baseline replacement for Holy with an appropriate talent there to replace it (and probably nerfed itself of course, but it should be there partially as a triage HoT, partially to stack IH). More so than SS needed to become baseline for Prot.

    Also this will make EF probably non-viable in PvP completely and non-viable for non-Holy (so fucking much for "we want talents to be good for all classes"). Too many people have this misconception that EF and WoG are two separate spells, I really just saw EF as WoG, so I don't get why the initial heal needs to be lowered.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Xs View Post
    Interesting changes, works out at about a 42% nerf to the WoG part of EF, quite a big hit and not sure if its really justified.
    Good to see them working to make the talent choices a bit less linear, although I don't see Tier 3 changing from cookie cutter EF, I can see the benefits for PvP though.
    With that kind of nerf the initial heal of EF is worse than WoG which most likely would make me use another talent instead. SS has been nerfed really hard and contrary to popular belief SS was actually really good, its just that EF was better than SS + LoD. That leaves selfless healer but I dont see this accounting for more than 1-1.5% of our total healing even with the buff. I honestly dont know what talent I would pick because they are all garbage.
    Last edited by Pacer; 2013-06-20 at 12:29 AM.

  7. #7
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Selfless Healer is still worthless because it only procs off of Judgment, sorry GC however I give +2 points for trying. As mentioned it should be EF made baseline for Holy, not Sacred Shield (still a good talent for all 3 specs) made baseline for Prot which I don't understand.

    Selfless Healer is still a good choice for Ret, but Holy is just left in the dust. The new replacement for SS just sucks all around.

    Also, any word on a new Divine Plea glyph? While a buff technically I think it's a trivial buff and now that this glyph is obsolete perhaps we can get one that makes our toolkit still suck a little less.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Pacer View Post
    With that kind of nerf the initial heal of EF is worse than WoG which most likely would make me use another talent instead. SS has been nerfed really hard and contrary to popular belief SS was actually really good, its just that EF was better than SS + LoD. That leaves selfless healer which has been buffed but I dont see this accounting for more than 1-1.5% of our total healing even with the buff. I honestly dont know what talent I would pick because they are all garbage.
    You're still looking at EF doing ~240k per use, they've not touched the HoT and I don't think even the current version of Sacred Shield is beating that, let alone what they've changed it to

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-20 at 01:32 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    Also, any word on a new Divine Plea glyph? While a buff technically I think it's a trivial buff and now that this glyph is obsolete perhaps we can get one that makes our toolkit still suck a little less.
    Nothing so far, watch this space I guess

  9. #9
    They might as well have written "nerfed EF" and yet the other talents dont seem viable at all in PVE pov. On 900k hp tank sacred shield gives "amazing" 2.25k hps if it procs every cd. Selfless healer seems completely useless, why would you want to spend time judging, when you could be healing. Even while judging we'd get buffed single target heal which would be kinda pointless considering the amount of gcds wasted to get one stacked up.

    I'm kinda indifferent about sanctified wrath change (at least they didnt go nerf HA). Maybe it might be worth using in prolonged aoe damage with the 2 set. At least they did the change with divine plea and it's nice for certain fights where it was dangerous to use before with the 50% debuff. I wonder what the glyph is gonna give in 5.4 then.

    I have no idea what blizzard is thinking about holy paladins. Mastery shields might give us OP healing on some trivial damage fights, but nerfing the normal heal output shouldnt be the way to go around. They just want us to switch EF to some garbage talents they thought might be useful.

  10. #10
    Field Marshal Rayocell's Avatar
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    Hey, at least EF won't overheal as much now...right?

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Kerfax View Post
    I expected the nerfs to EF, but I still don't see it changing. Selfless healer is bad because it requires us to constantly use GCDs for something that doesn't directly do healing. As far as SS, I think the change makes it far worse than it was. I don't know if its intended to be a buff or a nerf, but that looks like a nerf to me for Holy and Prot.

    I definitely like the DP change though. Its very nice to not have to worry about using it during some downtime.
    I think you should think about Selfless Healer again, this time, think about the effect it has on haste. For instance, a lot of pallies already use CS for holy power, so I don't think you're argument about a GCD that doesn't heal really matters. With a substantial (read: not full) amount of haste, I think you could get 2 stacks in less than 10 seconds for probably a 300k Divine Light, probably instant cast.

    I'm not saying it will be the best, or most efficient, it's just too early to tell, but it does present a new, interesting, in-line-with-other-pally-specs playstyle that could be effective. That, and EF is getting hit kinda hard.

  12. #12
    Pandaren Monk Freia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Absintheminded View Post
    I think you should think about Selfless Healer again, this time, think about the effect it has on haste. For instance, a lot of pallies already use CS for holy power, so I don't think you're argument about a GCD that doesn't heal really matters. With a substantial (read: not full) amount of haste, I think you could get 2 stacks in less than 10 seconds for probably a 300k Divine Light, probably instant cast.

    I'm not saying it will be the best, or most efficient, it's just too early to tell, but it does present a new, interesting, in-line-with-other-pally-specs playstyle that could be effective. That, and EF is getting hit kinda hard.
    CS is not reliable holy power in most situations. In 25m heroic content there are too many fights you cannot get into melee and they have not made any mention of changing that.

  13. #13
    Pit Lord Mifuyne's Avatar
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    They would be better off scaling shields down for both pallies and priests instead of nerfing like this.
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  14. #14
    Dreadlord
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    We gonna end up dead last if these changes go live combined with the resto love.

  15. #15
    So at the moment, we had some shoddy, shoddy tier bonus' and a big fat fish slap in the face to look forward to next tier. Oh, we get something that resembles a mana cd though atleast, but they'll probably deem that to powerful without the self MS effect and nerf the mana gain by 50% too!

    Quote Originally Posted by Rayocell View Post
    Hey, at least EF won't overheal as much now...right?
    True :P But I wish they would atleast add in something like "if used on a target with 20% +/- or less HP, increases the chance to crit by 30% or something similar just to atleast make it actually heal when we really need it (I know its still rng but ye)
    Last edited by Hypasonic; 2013-06-20 at 02:34 AM.

  16. #16
    Grunt Modulo's Avatar
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    Selfless Healer still looks to be in a poor place despite its buff. With that said, it would only need two stacks to bring the cast time of a Divine Light down to <1s. The new Sacred Shield looks even worse than the option we have at the moment. My stats put it at a theoretical maximum of 330k every 2 minutes, as opposed to the ~900k per 2 minutes we have at the moment (assuming none of the shield is wasted).

    Eternal Flame nerfs were to be expected, I suspect to devalue the talent and make SH or SS a competitive option. Which they still really aren't.

    Also irked at the Shaman buffs and even more haste on the Disc 4-set. Don't get me wrong, they [resto] deserve/need it, but at this rate as zuluslayer said we're dropping like a stone.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Freia View Post
    CS is not reliable holy power in most situations. In 25m heroic content there are too many fights you cannot get into melee and they have not made any mention of changing that.
    I understand the issue with melee range ie Iron Qon, but this is part of a larger problem IMO (pallies should be considered melee for boss mechanics). CS for me probably hits at least 50%, I use it every chance I get, it's free healing, indirectly.

    I'm not quite sure why you chose to respond about CS, it's well-known many (most?) pallies do this, the point that I was getting at was about actually using Judgment + Selfless Healer, which would not have the same detrimental effects as CS occasionally does.

    Quote Originally Posted by Modulo View Post
    Selfless Healer still looks to be in a poor place despite its buff. With that said, it would only need two stacks to bring the cast time of a Divine Light down to <1s.
    Don't forget the additional healing it would do as well. I just see it as basically changing playstyle from spam HoTs on the raid to burst healing/stacking shields....
    Last edited by Absintheminded; 2013-06-20 at 02:36 AM.

  18. #18
    Pandaren Monk Freia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Absintheminded View Post
    I understand the issue with melee range ie Iron Qon, but this is part of a larger problem IMO (pallies should be considered melee for boss mechanics). CS for me probably hits at least 50%, I use it every chance I get, it's free healing, indirectly.

    I'm not quite sure why you chose to respond about CS, it's well-known many (most?) pallies do this, the point that I was getting at was about actually using Judgment + Selfless Healer, which would not have the same detrimental effects as CS occasionally does.



    Don't forget the additional healing it would do as well. I just see it as basically changing playstyle from spam HoTs on the raid to burst healing/stacking shields....
    Use judgement to increase out single target healing... does not seem worth it to me, especially not in 25m.

  19. #19
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    SH itself isn't the worst idea. But Judgment is the bad part.

    Why in fuck's name would I Judge to get a "little" better Flash or Divine Light when I can just cast another heal instead?

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Freia View Post
    Use judgement to increase out single target healing... does not seem worth it to me, especially not in 25m.
    I don't play in 25m, so my thinking is geared to 10m. But having said that single target healing in 10m is no more lofty a goal than tab + EF healing in 25m.

    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    SH itself isn't the worst idea. But Judgment is the bad part.

    Why in fuck's name would I Judge to get a "little" better Flash or Divine Light when I can just cast another heal instead?
    I would agree that Judgment isn't the best idea, I mean the whole idea of haste reducing Judgement and Crusader Strike but not a damn thing that actually benefits Holy directly is fucked. But I would use Judgement in the same capacity that I've been using CS, not every damn GCD is filled with casting a heal. I would weave it in and when I do need a big heal it will be practically instant and maybe hit for 300k+. Can't see how that isn't useful.
    Last edited by Absintheminded; 2013-06-20 at 03:07 AM.

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