[Holy] Patch 5.4 PTR - Changes Discussion

[Freia]

The final issue is probably the trinkets...

More like the one trinket. They just need to scrap it and not let it go live imo.

[Tiberria]

They have shot down any notion of changing the target caps for Holy Radiance in 25 man:

Greg Street ‏@Ghostcrawler 1h

@TGDLeefa We don't like non-CD AE heals with huge target caps. Trying it with HR only because we want Resto to be awesome when clumped.

[Deleted]

More like the one trinket. They just need to scrap it and not let it go live imo.

trinket, trinkets! Has there been any indication at all that will happen?

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They have shot down any notion of changing the target caps for Holy Radiance in 25 man:

Was never gonna happen. Wouldn't have been the right move anyway in my opinion.

[Freia]

They have shot down any notion of changing the target caps for Holy Radiance in 25 man:

Can you link that, please? Hard to find stuff on his twitter right now.

[Tiberria]

Can you link that, please? Hard to find stuff on his twitter right now.

https://twitter.com/Ghostcrawler/sta...23712455573506

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@Gohon_CoA We buffed SH a lot for Holy. Looking at what we can do to SS for them.

@Ady_Mx If the finishers aren't good, we find paladins just spam the builders and ignore the finishers, which feels bad too.

@MrMadguy We do think AE heal spam has gotten out of control again. The healer tookit lacks depth when single target heals are ignored.

.@MrMadguy It's challenging because every time we nerf AEs, rather than going to single-target heals, healers just feel too weak to heal.

@Ghostcrawler Agree100%. I am growing to hate having to take EF. Every fight my top heal is an absorb. Should just play my Disc priest.
@Touch_of_Gray99 Exactly. We don't argue it's effective. But we question whether it's really fun or fits the paladin kit.

@Ady_Mx Paladins survived for years without hots. We don't buy that they are utterly dependent on a talent that is like a year old.

@Touch_of_Gray99 If you recall, EF was limit one until very late in MoP beta. It's an example of a change we should not have made so late.
@Touch_of_Gray99 Obviously had big consequences.

@lilyriel If some paladins take EF, then that's cool. That's character differentiation. When they all have it, that's homogenization.

@lilyriel TBH, we hear this too often from every class in the game. The paladin healing toolkit is mostly fine. EF is a crutch.

@lilyriel Now paladins aren't perfect. No class is. But they aren't horribly off the rails either as the forums would have you believe.

@Flabbertje1 Originally we wanted to make HTT less mandatory by having it not do bonus healing for Resto. Concluded that would never work.

@Ghostcrawler Can you give us any insight as to what the current ideas/plans are for Guardian of the Ancients Kings (Holy)?
@JT_Hero We want it to key off of AE heals in addition to ST heals. Less use these days in that much ST healing on one target.

[Peachpies]

well he is in for a big surprise

[Freia]

Pretty much everything he posts shows he isn't in touch with the game. Saying the paladin toolkit is fine especially shows this.

[Deleted]

A spell with a cast time. You realize our main aoe is HR with a slow cast time.


In other news: Reglitch has stopped posting in this thread it seems but he has decided to start messaging people instead.

And where did I write HR has no cast time? I only stated that Chi Burst is cast time spell. Stop treating every poster like he loves seeing your class in troubles, I only wanted to correct wrong assumptions.

I wrote instant on demand aoe not instant cast :P. Renewing Mist for example while being instant cast is not instant on demand aoe is it

Chi Burst isn't istant on demand anyway because it has a cast time, so it doesn't heal right away, and you need to be positioned correctly, doesn't seem "on demand" to me. SCK too, it's a channel so it's like a HoT.

[Deleted]

@Ghostcrawler Will we see any disc nerfs at any point? Or do you see them as being balanced right now (lol)

@FabioSI91736917 We don't think the shields, CDs or Atonement are OP alone. The package makes them very versatile.

Also tweeted him.. Seeing if priests were getting any kinda work.. He seems to think they are balanced.. This just makes me lol.. We go trough a complete revamp of talents spells etc.. Because they dont like how we heal and because they think IH is 2 good..

But they leave the most Op healer wit no changes.. I mean what are they thinking..

[Floopa]

Chi Burst isn't istant on demand anyway because it has a cast time, so it doesn't heal right away, and you need to be positioned correctly, doesn't seem "on demand" to me. SCK too, it's a channel so it's like a HoT.

I hope you're joking. CB has a <1 sec cast time and SCK ticks every .5 seconds... Both are "on demand" and may as well be instant for all of the purpose they provide.

[Freia]

Add in him saying that increasing the target cap for LoD would just "lead to priests, monks and druids wanting their AE heals uncapped as well b/c now they're left out".

[nightfalls]

Add in him saying that increasing the target cap for LoD would just "lead to priests, monks and druids wanting their AE heals uncapped as well b/c now they're left out".

Well, they already broke that barrier with the special snowflake shaman treatment.

[Tiberria]

Add in him saying that increasing the target cap for LoD would just "lead to priests, monks and druids wanting their AE heals uncapped as well b/c now they're left out".

They probably never should have changed the cap on Healing Rain in 25 mans, because it was inevitable that it would lead to other classes wanting the same thing on their spells. I guess they kind of had to if their design intent was to make Shaman superior on stacked fights, because increasing the base heal would make HR worth using on 1 target. Their only other options would have been to give Shaman a new spell/totem for stacked healing, or nerf stacked healing abilities for every other healer, but they took the easiest route out.

I do hope they hold firm on not scaling every DR cap heal to different DR caps in 25 man though - it will only make healer balance a bigger mess. I don't even think having a 14 DR cap on Holy Radiance will do that much for Paladins anyway - the fights next tier seem to rarely have situations where you will hit the 14 target cap in the first place.

[Freia]

Well, they already broke that barrier with the special snowflake shaman treatment.

He can't keep anything straight right now.

They probably never should have changed the cap on Healing Rain in 25 mans, because it was inevitable that it would lead to other classes wanting the same thing on their spells. I guess they kind of had to if their design intent was to make Shaman superior on stacked fights, because increasing the base heal would make HR worth using on 1 target. Their only other options would have been to give Shaman a new spell/totem for stacked healing, or nerf stacked healing abilities for every other healer, but they took the easiest route out.

I do hope they hold firm on not scaling every DR cap heal to different DR caps in 25 man though - it will only make healer balance a bigger mess. I don't even think having a 14 DR cap on Holy Radiance will do that much for Paladins anyway - the fights next tier seem to rarely have situations where you will hit the 14 target cap in the first place.

Well as I said before, I don't think the 25m scaling should have happened period for any spell. But it is here now and they really only have themselves to blame now when they basically randomly pick and choose when to implement it and cause people to ask for it.

[Tiberria]

Well, they already broke that barrier with the special snowflake shaman treatment.

But, that is because the design intent for Shaman is that they are the dominant stacked healers. With how ridiculous they have let absorbs, passive healing and raid cooldowns get, that is probably the only way we would get to that point - unless they wanted to nerf every other healer's stacked healing capabilities.

[Absyrd]

Add in him saying that increasing the target cap for LoD would just "lead to priests, monks and druids wanting their AE heals uncapped as well b/c now they're left out".

I'm not sure how I should respond back to his tweet, when I read it i was like uh...

[Freia]

I'm not sure how I should respond back to his tweet, when I read it i was like uh...

Yea because he wrote healers who already had their big healing cooldowns raised to the higher cap.

Basically if you try to discuss Paladin issues with GC he asks for proof (logs are not proof btw!) and then says things like EF is a crutch and that we have been fine without EF in past expansions. It is just a joke at this point.

[Tiberria]

@DreZoHD They are the most common healer in 25 and second to Disc in 10s. Clearly someone is bringing them.

@DreZoHD Maybe the EF nerf sends them from hero to zero but I sort of doubt it.

Updated tweets

[Deleted]

He probabaly isnt tracking the top world guilds in the ptr if he's sayin that.. lol

[Freia]

He probabaly isnt tracking the top world guilds in the ptr if he's sayin that.. lol

I don't think he is tracking any of it.