[Holy] Patch 5.4 PTR - Changes Discussion

[Tiberria]

He probabaly isnt tracking the top world guilds in teh ptr if he's sayin that.. lol

During the 5.3 PTR, Shaman repeatedly told him that buffing Tranq/Revival/DH and not giving HTT the same treatment would result in Shaman (who were barely treading water after the HR/ELW buff at that point) falling massively behind, and we were blown off with the "HTT is a talent and it will make it mandatory" excuse and told that Shaman were fine and 25 man Shaman didn't need buffs. We had to wait until the 5.4 PTR to finally convince them.

Chances are, they will want to see actual live raid representation data and performance before making major changes.

[Deleted]

Greg Street ‏@Ghostcrawler 20 h

To continue, we don't want every paladin playing like a Resto druid, and honestly neither should you paladins. EF shouldn't be mandatory.

I dont get why they hate EF so much.. We used to be the only healer without a HoT EF was made to fix that problem.. We go trough a entire expansion and at the end it becomes the biggest problem ever in the paladins tool kit..

[Freia]

During the 5.3 PTR, Shaman repeatedly told him that buffing Tranq/Revival/DH and not giving HTT the same treatment would result in Shaman (who were barely treading water after the HR/ELW buff at that point) falling massively behind, and we were blown off with the "HTT is a talent and it will make it mandatory" excuse and told that Shaman were fine and 25 man Shaman didn't need buffs. We had to wait until the 5.4 PTR to finally convince them.

Chances are, they will want to see actual live raid representation data and performance before making major changes.

Yea but we would rather not be trash for a whole patch and then get buffed when it is too late. I knew that was something that would likely happen, because they like to wait until they see the results live before making fixes most of the time.

[mcbubble]

@DreZoHD They are the most common healer in 25 and second to Disc in 10s. Clearly someone is bringing them.


@DreZoHD Maybe the EF nerf sends them from hero to zero but I sort of doubt it.

There it is ladies and gentleman. We're the most populous healer. Hence the constant nerfs recently.

I would love to know what pool of players that he's looking at.
Most popular healer in 25m raiding guilds? How do they accumulate these #s? Would love some more info.
I see most top guilds bringing 2 priests and usually 1 paly. Just my $.02.

[Tiberria]

There it is ladies and gentleman. We're the most populous healer. Hence the constant nerfs recently.

I would love to know what pool of players that he's looking at.
Most popular healer in 25m raiding guilds? How do they accumulate these #s? Would love some more info.
I see most top guilds bringing 2 priests and usually 1 paly. Just my $.02.

It's easily obtainable from Raidbots

25H:
Pally - 23%
Disc - 20%
Shaman - 18%
Druid - 15%
Monk - 14%
HPriest - 10%

10H:
Disc - 30%
Pally - 24%
Druid - 17%
Shaman - 14%
Monk - 13%
HPriest - 3%

[Freia]

It's easily obtainable from Raidbots

25H:
Pally - 23%
Disc - 20%
Shaman - 18%
Druid - 15%
Monk - 14%
HPriest - 10%

10H:
Disc - 30%
Pally - 24%
Druid - 17%
Shaman - 14%
Monk - 13%
HPriest - 3%

Quite frankly if output numbers doesn't count on raidbots, then anything else shouldn't either for GC.

[Floopa]

Judging from those numbers, shouldn't Blizzard buff Mistweavers? (they don't need buffs, but if they buff/nerf based on representation then it only makes sense)

[Deleted]

The guy is delusional.

[Deleted]

GC is just so out of touch with his own game its unreal. He thinks the increase to healing rain is fine because shamans needs to be superior healers when stacked up... I mean really?



This is my guilds enchancement shamans healing done from two weeks ago on the last phase of Ra den. My napkin math tells me he is doing 320k hps from healing rain and AG alone (no overhealing) over the couse of 142 seconds. Now imagine a 233% buff to that, you are looking at 750k sustained hps from a fucking enchancement shaman. Almost as much sustained hps as our monk BURSTS when using revival.

This is the sort of thing that does not need testing on PTR, it is going to be so retardedly overpowered you may aswell run 4 enchancement shamans and a disc priest to keep your entire raid alive.

[mcbubble]

Judging from those numbers, shouldn't Blizzard buff Mistweavers? (they don't need buffs, but if they buff/nerf based on representation then it only makes sense)

Exactly my point - you can't go off of these numbers.
What's more to the point - how does raidbots gather these numbers? It's a total representation of those that have completed at least one boss (I believe).
That's a horrible sample size if that's the case. Please do some standard deviations and choose those that are progressed as opposed to the total # of healers.

That btw is just raiders. Please also show the # of holy paladins in arenas. I guarantee that number plumets.

[Deleted]

I hope you're joking. CB has a <1 sec cast time and SCK ticks every .5 seconds... Both are "on demand" and may as well be instant for all of the purpose they provide.

Still you can't treat Chi Burst as Prayer of Healing since all you need to do for PoH to be effective is pressing a button on a frame. Chi Burst needs you to be behind 6 players when AoE damages occurs. SCK's ticks heals 10k~ each, needless to say you need a full effective duration of SCK for it to be worth using, it's not that every tick of SCK top peoples up.

[Tiberria]

Judging from those numbers, shouldn't Blizzard buff Mistweavers? (they don't need buffs, but if they buff/nerf based on representation then it only makes sense)

Mistweaver representation is expected to be lower, because it's a new class, and there are not as many people that want to play it or can play it as well as the Vanilla classes. In T11, MW representation was like 8%, and it has been steadily climbing as more people learn the class. To a lesser extent, Druid representation should also be lower, because the class has 4 specs, dividing the player pool into more buckets.

[Peachpies]

priests are far more popular and the numbers are from live where its not quite so bad.

[nightfalls]

25H:
Pally - 23%
Disc - 20%
Shaman - 18%
Druid - 15%
Monk - 14%
HPriest - 10%

So Priests are at 30% basically, hence we're not most populated. Perhaps it's a bit fallacious to lump all priests together, but for the most part priests do swap between specs (not all and some will do so only grudgingly, but that's a small % overall). So this whole "most populous healing class" is sort of skewed not that it's an important thing at all to begin with. We are not being "stacked" the same way paladin tanks are.

Agree they should never have increased target caps to begin with, because they let the fucking cat out of the bag with this one. All specs have now had target caps increased in heals, with shamans having a non-cooldown target cap increased, except paladins.

And yet "we don't want to have to do the same for others..." hate to break it to ya Greg, but you already did.

[Tiberria]

GC is just so out of touch with his own game its unreal. He thinks the increase to healing rain is fine because shamans needs to be superior healers when stacked up... I mean really?

The HR buff is 100% needed for Resto Shaman. They should probably consider nerfing or removing Healing Rain from DPS shaman specs. Also, that level of healing is only going to happen on a Ra-Den type fight, of which there are none (from the fights we have seen so far) in SoO.

[Freia]

Still you can't treat Chi Burst as Prayer of Healing since all you need to do for PoH to be effective is pressing a button on a frame. Chi Burst needs you to be behind 6 players when AoE damages occurs. SCK's ticks heals 10k~ each, needless to say you need a full effective duration of SCK for it to be worth using, it's not that every tick of SCK top peoples up.

You are aware Prayer of Healing heals 5 people, requires them to be grouped, within 30 yards of each other and has a2.5 second cast time? Not even close to comparable really.

The HR buff is 100% needed for Resto Shaman. They should probably consider nerfing or removing Healing Rain from DPS shaman specs. Also, that level of healing is only going to happen on a Ra-Den type fight, of which there are none (from the fights we have seen so far) in SoO.

It really wasn't. And there is no way you will convince anyone in this forum so I wouldn't even try. Forcing niches is stupid and shouldn't be happening. I think your spread healing should have gotten buffed but not increasing the cap on HRain unless they were ready to do so with everyone else's heals.

[nightfalls]

You are aware Prayer of Healing heals 5 people, requires them to be grouped, within 30 yards of each other and has a2.5 second cast time? Not even close to comparable really.

This guy is on ignore soon also, derailing the thread. I was going to respond but meh, this isn't fucking monk forums.

Honestly I'm running out of ideas at this point, probably going to be shit until next expansion. Again it's not the numbers, it's the mechanics right now. Right now we're the only healer without a 25m scaling mechanic (or 2, or 3), and we have the clunkiest spread and stacked healing there is, except maybe shamans being spread (which is alleviated with baseline HTT and a new HST talent ON TOP of it).

[Tiberria]

So Priests are at 30% basically, hence we're not most populated. Perhaps it's a bit fallacious to lump all priests together, but for the most part priests do swap between specs (not all and some will do so only grudgingly, but that's a small % overall). So this whole "most populous healing class" is sort of skewed not that it's an important thing at all to begin with. We are not being "stacked" the same way paladin tanks are.

Agree they should never have increased target caps to begin with, because they let the fucking cat out of the bag with this one. All specs have now had target caps increased in heals, with shamans having a non-cooldown target cap increased, except paladins.

And yet "we don't want to have to do the same for others..." hate to break it to ya Greg, but you already did.

The argument is going to be that, in theory, 2/3 of Priests are healers, so it is expected that there are twice as many Priest healers as that of any other class, and because they switch between the two specs based on what is best, you actually have to divide the total of Holy + Disc by 2 to compare their representation with say Paladins and Shaman. If you do that, Priest representation is below average. Granted, it's a fallacy to say that there are more than twice as many people that want to play Priest healers as Resto Shaman/Druids/Holy Paladins, but that is the logic probably.

Also, Disc Priests have not had a target cap increase on any ability.

[Arayaa]

Holy paladins have -always- been one of the most, if not the most played healer. It isn't because we are OP. It is because we are the most played class. Ret is a subpar raid spec so most are funneled into either prot or holy and because you can only bring 1-2 tanks to a raid it is usually holy. The holy spec player numbers has gotten to where it is now because we've never been forced to reroll, we've always been viable. Using a spec representation argument should have resulted in nurfs pretty much every patch for the last few expansions. I just went back and looked at heroic Firelands class sampling - even when holy paladins were performing relatively poorly we were still the most played healer.

Basically here is how I see it. At the moment on the PTR we aren't bringing enough healing, especially in 25m. We won't be bringing very good utility or burst healing, our raid cooldowns are quite poor and our healing rotation consists of no damage. About the only unique mechanics we have left are Hand of Protection and Hand of Purity, but somehow I doubt they will play a heavy role this tier, considering what happened in ToT...

[Deleted]

It really wasn't. And there is no way you will convince anyone in this forum so I wouldn't even try. Forcing niches is stupid and shouldn't be happening. I think your spread healing should have gotten buffed but not increasing the cap on HRain unless they were ready to do so with everyone else's heals.

Don't think it's really fair to comment in depths on 'what buffs other classes need' if we don't understand the class intricately. It annoys us when others do it to us without understanding our underlying issues.

I do agree there shouldn't be one DR rule for one class, and one for everybody else.