[Holy] Patch 5.4 PTR - Changes Discussion

[mcbubble]

I've given up griping about Disc priests. They haven't even mentioned bringing them in line.
The only reference I recall is when they mentioned that Holy Priest mana regen might be too low, or Disc might be too good.
The fact that they said, "Disc mana regen MIGHT be too good" just shows that they have no clue.

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Im not trying to prove anything but you seem to be over exagerating rapture a tad, but working off some values for my current raid

Priest: PW:S cost is 13725 mana, they have 12000 spirit returning 18000 mana per rapture proc. Assuming they get atleast 8 procs per 2 minutes this is a net gain of 34200 mana per 2 minutes atleast. (this is not including shields cast under meta proc)

Paladin: I currently have 15000 spirit, DP costs nothing to activate, returns 60750 mana per 2 minutes.

It may return a large % of spirit but considering the cost of the shield it isn't massively powerful.

That's only one of their mana return mechanics. Don't forget their absurd Fiend/Mind Bender mana regen mechanic.
*edit* They even buffed Mind Bender to give more mana back...I'm speechless.

[Linnea]

Priest: PW:S cost is 13725 mana, they have 12000 spirit returning 18000 mana per rapture proc. Assuming they get atleast 8 procs per 2 minutes this is a net gain of 34200 mana per 2 minutes atleast. (this is not including shields cast under meta proc)

Sure it's a net gain of 34200 mana per 2 minutes, but ur ignoring the healing that PW:S does. Going by ur numbers, they get 18000 mana every 12 seconds, the cost? PW:S. Sure it costs mana, but its 180k absorb doing 0% overheal. So all in all, its a net gain of 34200 mana per 2 mintes plus a shit ton of healing

Edit: the absorb amount of PW:S is probably wrong btw, not sure how much it usually does.

[Kyuuseishu]

Sure it's a net gain of 34200 mana per 2 minutes, but ur ignoring the healing that PW:S does. Going by ur numbers, they get 18000 mana every 12 seconds, the cost? PW:S. Sure it costs mana, but its 180k absorb doing 0% overheal. So all in all, its a net gain of 34200 mana per 2 mintes plus a shit ton of healing

Of course I'm ignoring the healing I'm looking at it from the rapture point of view, If you start getting into PW:S healing it becomes a whole different conversation from then on, so it's best just to stay away from that subject.

then you should subtract the cost of heals while divine plea is up.

You're just trying to complicate it, even if DP was instant mana return would you try and argue this? the fact you then cast spells after DP has been used?

[Peachpies]

then you should subtract the cost of heals while divine plea is up.

[Tiberria]

Either way I don't care but a 12 sec cd Rapture returning 150% of Spirit and a 2 minutes cd DP returning 405% of Spirit doesn't ever add up.

Comparing Divine Plea to Rapture is also ridiculous. The Priest equivalent to Divine Plea is Shadowfiend/PW:Solace or Mindbender. The equivalent to Rapture is basically mana free Holy Power and Beacon of Light healing (net of the mana cost differences between classes).

[Freia]

Comparing Divine Plea to Rapture is also ridiculous. The Priest equivalent to Divine Plea is Shadowfiend/PW:Solace or Mindbender. The equivalent to Rapture is basically mana free Holy Power and Beacon of Light healing (net of the mana cost differences between classes).

Considering Disc has it way too good when it comes to mana and we have it the worst, I don't really get what you are trying to defend here.

[Pasture]

I don't think mana is the thing we should be debating for 5.4. Mana will largely be ok. It's the other stuff we need to worry about.

[Deleted]

I don't think mana is the thing we should be debating for 5.4. Mana will largely be ok. It's the other stuff we need to worry about.

^ 10charsneeded

[Ceresc]

Paladin: I currently have 15000 spirit, DP costs nothing to activate, returns 60750 mana per 2 minutes.

Im not trying to prove anything but you seem to be over exaggerating Divine Plea a tad, but working off some values for my current raid:

Paladin: I currently have 12000 spirit, DP costs nothing to activate, returns 48600 mana per 2 minutues and is my only means of returning mana.

Rapture is only one of Priests mana return mechanics. Don't forget their absurd Fiend/Mind Bender mana regen mechanic.
*edit* They even buffed Mind Bender to give more mana back...I'm speechless.

Comparing Divine Plea to Rapture is also ridiculous.

If you start getting into PW:S healing it becomes a whole different conversation from then on, so it's best just to stay away from that subject.

**I apparently am not the only one with this view**

[Simca]

The new legendary proc may change this whole debate. If it procs as much as the meta gem procs... http://ptr.wowdb.com/spells/146199-spirit-of-chi-ji.

We may just end up spamming Divine Lights into the tank half of the time - lots of free Holy Power (depending on mana I suppose or we'd put beacon elsewhere), overhealing gives mastery shield from big hits on tank, overhealing splashes onto melee... everyone wins! Of course it'd be even better in fights where multiple tanks are tanking at once due to beacon too.

I don't think mana is the thing we should be debating for 5.4. Mana will largely be ok. It's the other stuff we need to worry about.

Yeah, maybe I'm doing it wrong but I usually have enough mana, even on progression fights. I hit ~5% right when the fight ends, which is how it should be.

Sure, it feels stupid to look at my druid healer's mana bar and he's sitting at 80% at the end of the same fight, but I didn't -run out- so it doesn't matter to me that much.

[Keiyra]

Im not trying to prove anything but you seem to be over exaggerating Divine Plea a tad, but working off some values for my current raid:

Paladin: I currently have 12000 spirit, DP costs nothing to activate, returns 48600 mana per 2 minutues and is my only means of returning mana.

Rapture is only one of Priests mana return mechanics. Don't forget their absurd Fiend/Mind Bender mana regen mechanic.
*edit* They even buffed Mind Bender to give more mana back...I'm speechless.

Comparing Divine Plea to Rapture is also ridiculous.

If you start getting into PW:S healing it becomes a whole different conversation from then on, so it's best just to stay away from that subject.

**I apparently am not the only one with this view**

You are comparing different classes with different kits. Looking at rapture vs plea and then saying well they have mindbender/fiend, also ignore that paladins have mana free heals (from holy power) - not everything is going to work out evenly if you try to compare abilities in isolation like that.

Rapture mana gains are under cut by the cost of the PW shield, in an analogous way that the mana gains from free healing from Holy power is undercut by the the mana cost of the HP generators.

If you had to make a comparison, you should be comparing Divine Plea to Mindbinder/Shadowfiend, since those abilities are more similar mechanically. (press button, get back mana)

Just stop trying to make direct ability comparisons, look at your own kit, and form a coherent argument about whether or not mana regen is sufficient for the classes kit. (personally i think disc's regen is a bit high and holy pally's is too low - but bitching that X sucks, cause other classes Y is better will get you no where with blizz)

[Freia]

Honestly I don't think mana is ok until all the classes can function equally at the similar spirit levels. As long as paladins have to stack more spirit (and lose out on more throughput stats) than the other healers, then no mana isn't fine imo.

[Deleted]

Either way I don't care but a 12 sec cd Rapture returning 150% of Spirit and a 2 minutes cd DP returning 405% of Spirit doesn't ever add up.

Net gain is not 150% of Spirit because shield costs mana (it alos does healing but anyway).

[Peachpies]

Net gain is not 150% of Spirit because shield costs mana (it alos does healing but anyway).

WHY DOES THAT MATTER???? look at top disc priest parses. it is used alot more than just than just every 12 seconds because it is a good ability not just for the mana return. you can also look at the amount of mana a palidin would have to use to do that same amount of healing per mana regained.

[Tiberria]

This is probably soon going to be a moot point, because the most recent build has the following note

Innervate now excludes short-duration Spirit bonuses.

If they are taking short term Spirit bonuses off Innervate, they will also take it off Divine Plea. It would never make any sense in the first place. If Paladin regen is too low, buff their regen or reduce their spell costs. Balancing it around synching it up with a trinket proc from a trinket that not everyone will have is terrible class design.

[Keiyra]

they already removed it from plea in the latest datamines:

Causes the Paladin to regenerate mana equal to 135% of Spirit(excluding short-duration Spirit bonuses) every 3 sec for 9 sec. Total mana gained will never be less than 12% of caster's maximum mana.

[Gilthresa]

Honestly I don't think mana is ok until all the classes can function equally at the similar spirit levels. As long as paladins have to stack more spirit (and lose out on more throughput stats) than the other healers, then no mana isn't fine imo.

Mana is fine, please just stop

[Taygete]

I don't see how judgment giving 1 charge of HP would fix our problems, I don't know if you did any PTR testing but so far we get wrecked by every other class. On ptr EF has lost ~25% of it's raw healing compared to live(and lost much more of it's effective healing because the loss was IH) and LoD is much weaker compared to what other classes bring to the table in terms of aoe healing. Also you need to remember that Judgment is a gcd so it needs to do alot more than generate 1 HP for it to be worth taking over EF.

I don't think the 1 HP would "fix" anything, but I do think it would make SH more attractive, but only because this is on top of the reduced mana cost and DL/flash buff... which is a much more attractive idea since they seem to want to make the single target style of healing more competitive with EF/aoe healing spam. Yeah it's a gcd, but it's not like this would be the first time holy paladins would be casting judgment... only previously it was to keep up JotP and then on cd to keep our mana up. I would welcome a reason to judge again, I was bummed when it was no longer necessary. In fact, part of the reason I enjoy prism so much is because it sortof fills that gap where I would have been judging previously, lol. Old habits die hard. Anyway, It would be nice to have options rather than mandatory talents. With the change to haste and HS, and the buff to plea to support running with a haste build... honestly, I'm all for it. It would give us two very different but both effective playstyles to choose from, so whatever we enjoy more or whatever our raid comp needs, we have more than one valid approach to healing. In theory. What remains to be seen is how well they balance everything with regard to other healers.

As for the PTR, of course we've been getting wrecked so far... They've been saying since the EF nerf that buffs were incoming to compensate. Knowing that much, I don't know what else you would expect. There is obviously still a lot of testing/balancing to be done here.

[Kyuuseishu]

WHY DOES THAT MATTER???? look at top disc priest parses. it is used alot more than just than just every 12 seconds because it is a good ability not just for the mana return. you can also look at the amount of mana a palidin would have to use to do that same amount of healing per mana regained.

This isn't debate about PW:S, if you want that, the priest forums are that way -->

[Freia]

Mana is fine, please just stop

If we have concerns we are going to voice them. You just stop. You have your opinion and I have mine.