We ran double holy paladin yesterday and while I cant really find the flaw in your wall of numbers I can safely say that there is something wrong with it. I was running a mastery build while the other holy paladin, Xern, was running pure haste (less spirit than me). The rotation we both used is HS HR HR LOD SS and while haste was very very close it was not better than mastery and it will be even worse in a 25 man setting and on a longer fight (Thok was like a 4-5min fight).
Actually nvm, you asume no overhealing, on Thok IH did between 5-10% overhealing while the healing spells did between 35% (holy prism) and 60% (holy radiance).
Last edited by mmocaa84e3d5fa; 2013-07-20 at 11:33 AM.
First boss was useless so no point mentioning that, but for the second boss we ran 2 paladins + 1 shaman. Didn't have much time to test as the boss was very easy, I only tried the build which I considered the best: SH, full mastery, minimum spirit, J->hr->HS->LoD. In 550 gear I would have 23k mastery(with might), 12k spirit(more of this needs to be reforged to haste as i was full mana almost all the time). The other paladin went for SS, obviously it was the first time we were playing those builds so there could of been mistakes, but SH just destroyed SS in term of HPS and mana efficiency. Think he was at 20% mana when I was at 80% so in my mind SS is not competitive in it's current form, at least not on a fight where we can be stacked full time like Thok the Bloodthirsty.
Now due to the fact that we were 3 healing a fight that seems designed for 2 healers the hps was not that high, I did 130k(61% overhealing) not including guardian because for some reason the healing done by it does not show up on skada and I forgot to log and see if WoL displays it properly.
I didn't get to test the haste SH build because it was late but I just don't see any way it would be better than mastery SH.
Also we are still far behind compared to our live version, I need to see the 25 man testing first but I think it's safe to assume that we still need a slight buff, ofc with the priest and MW nerfs we might be competitive but that remains to be seen after more testing.
130k hps sounds too good to be true, unless you were staying in phase 1 for ages? Guardian would have done fuck all to your healing, 1 HR will make it go away atm. I do find it interesting that you say you could compete with a J->hr->HS->LoD rotation, if that is the case we might be better off going full mastery + haste and be like monks and have 5000 spirit.
Both tests seem to be heavily based on a HR rotation. It would be interesting to see the results on spread fights that SoO supposedly has in abundance.
On stacked fights mastery is, of course, still going to be very strong. We can still roll shields with HR and Daybreak and it's probably still the best way we have of 'sniping' heals for hps purposes. Spread fights should be a different matter. We used EF to roll shields there and with this gone rolling mastery will be near impossible on a spread fight, weakening mastery in its own right without even thinking about haste. In these kind of fights the extra ticks afford by haste to EF / SS may well win out.
In short, on fights we can stack I think the 5.3 style of overhealing for shields will still win out. Those spread fights will be a more interesting test of haste versus mastery.
Last edited by Pasture; 2013-07-20 at 12:33 PM.
Most groups were staying in p1 for a long time, but staying in p1 a long time makes instant casts (or super fast casts) extremely effective. After 7~ stacks a Priest can no longer use Atonement, or PoH, a Shaman can no longer use their heals apart from RT: in this scenario a Druid, Paladin and Monk are going to shine with the playstyle Kolori was using. I don't think the style would work very well on 'non' stack up fights. Especially those which have "range targetted" mechanics which drop Paladins stacking in melee for HR healing.
We did about 6-7 stacks each P1, only time I deviated from the rotation was when I had cd's up and at the end cause I was full mana so could just spam 3xHR->LoD. The healing breakdown for me was IH 24.89M(50%), LoD 8.27M(16.6%), HR 5.25M(10.06%), HP 4.31M(8.7%), HS 3.06M(6.2%), BoL 2.33M(4.7%), Daybreak 1.17M(2.3%), SoI 212k(0.4%), GoAK 170k(0.3%), DL 65k(0.1%).
@ Floopa
Yes it does remain to be seen if it's competitive on fights where you are spread out, on 25 it should be because we can HR the melee, on 10 man it might be problematic. It will also be quite good on movement fights because you ony need to cast 1HR with 1 stack of SH every 5 seconds, all the other casts are instant.
Last edited by mmoccc83223a73; 2013-07-20 at 12:58 PM.
Yeah, it sounds like a very viable way of playing the spec: only thing I wonder is if with a Disc Priest present (and a Druid) if you'll be doing too much OHing due to the absorption shields + Rejuv (w/ Genesis). Not to mention the glory which will be Healing Rain in 25 man.
Assuming no over heal (Aladaya pointed out LoD>EF due to overheal/not smart heal, of which I agree) EF is still our top through put rotation AFTER the nerf. Both SH and SS usage without any over heal "sim" below EF still.
So we have still been nerfed and I feel as though it is smoke and mirrors with them making SS and SH interesting but not more powerful than what they already nerfed. So as I see it we are still nerfed overall (other than Gaurdian buff).
As for mana:
Divine plea live grats 36k mana per 2min. PTR I am getting 60k mana with 15k spirit. So the difference is 24k mana per 2min over Live. That is 1000mp5 so depending on what SoI is worth that is our regen change.
EF is nothing right now. EF's sole viability was granted by the stacking shield effect. Without it its a WoG and a 12k hot every 3 secs for 30sec. Its not even about LoD beating EF, EF doesn't work without stacking mastery. I
SoI is worth much much more then what DP on PTR currently returns to us, if you're able to melee. Its not that big of an issue with SH(as u do a judgment for 3k mana instead of a HR for 21.6k) but its a massive issue with SS or EF.
So I just did LFR on PTR, I forgot to log most of it but I logged Norushen with 2 stacks of determination, shamans are just fucking rediculous but I honestly think we are in a pretty good spot now. I was using Selfless healer with 5600 spirit, 39% mastery fully buffed (no trinket), all my spirit was reforged into haste which I believe was at arround 25%. I went oom consistently at the 6min mark but I think a bit smarter/better play will last you till 8min into a fight (arcane torrent and DP ready at 6:30).
Last edited by mmocaa84e3d5fa; 2013-07-20 at 03:20 PM.
When you ran SH, what were your fillers?
I would assume, HR -> Judge -> HS -> Holy Light -> Holy Light -> judge -> HS -> Holy Light -> Holy Light -> judge - HR
That's the only way I could get a 3 stack...
You dont need to always get 3 Stacks. I went 1-2 stacks during Testing yesterday and it felt much better. But just went with live gear(full mastery) and obv had no mana issues. You can definatly go down with spirit with SFH.
You dont go for the 3 stacks, you go Judge -> HS -> HR -> LoD or HS -> Judge -> HR -> LoD doesnt really matter either way. When ever you get DP procs you can fill them in instead of HR which will increase the amount of selfless healer stacks.
Why would u go 3 stack SH, makes no sense.
@Pacer. You got heavily outhealed by a resto shaman in an LFR(forced 496 i think?) encounter that barely doing any dmg(though you did 3 heal). How is that "pretty good"? Just wait for HC 25 testing, you might be shocked how bad it is.
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Btw, am I the only that feels that some of the new glyphs are borderline silly? I'm mostly looking at the monk Expel Harm on others on the druids Efflorescence and on the Paladin HoS glyph.
HoS having its penalty is way outdated sure(but you add a 100% mandatory glyph for progression), + Monks getting more hps(out of expel harm) is surely not intended? Same for druids, why would you add more HPS to dominant already classes.
Last edited by mmoc5ef3a4fb0f; 2013-07-20 at 04:45 PM.