[Holy] Patch 5.4 PTR - Changes Discussion

[Tiberria]

Wrong, on progress, the Healing Rain will not do 75% overhealing. If it does it means we will be using 6 healers instead of 7 or 5 healers instead of 6 and that number will keep going down untill the healers are barely able to keep up with the healing.

About you analysis of logs, thats just terribly wrong. You are seeing low uptime because you are looking at an entire night of atempts which means you are also looking at run backs after you have wiped. Again you can see his riptide only healed 50 times when it should be atleast double. The whole idea of this shaman being bad also means that he probably didnt use Healing Rain on CD and didnt place it perfectly either.

You are 100% wrong on Healing Rain overheal. Healing Rain runs at a higher overheal than our overall overheal. On 25H progression, my typical overheal was 70-75%, and my typical HR overheal was 85%.

Here are some numbers I pulled for HR overheal on our first kills
Ra-Den - Overall overheal - 69%, HR overheal 79%
Lei Shen - Overall overheal - 79%, HR overheal 89%
Consorts - Overall overheal - 65%, HR overheal 78%

Those are progression kills, and every one of them had HR overheal above 75%. Also, when I am looking at my logs, I obviously know to split the log apart by the active time/by the actual attempts and remove the time between wipes. Riptide uptime is not reporting correctly.

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Yea except if you look at top Ra-den/Lei Shen kills they all use the Disc+MW combination.

Its common to use a H Paladin for casual 10 man guilds, if Healing Plate drops they would have to disenchant it. None gives a fuck about casual 10 man guilds though

Lei Shen 10H representation:

Disc - 35%
Pally - 27%
Monk - 15%
Druid - 14%
Shaman - 8%
Holy Priest - 1%

Ra-Den 10H representation:

Disc - 34%
Pally - 27%
Druid - 14%
Shaman - 13%
Monk - 12%
Holy Priest - 1%

It's pretty clear that the Disc/HPally 10 man dominance gets even more prominent the higher the progression.

Infracted for overall role in derailing the thread. ~Fhi

[Deleted]

Yea except if you look at top Ra-den/Lei Shen kills they all use the Disc+MW combination.

Its common to use a H Paladin for casual 10 man guilds, if Healing Plate drops they would have to disenchant it. None gives a fuck about casual 10 man guilds though

That is just rude to insult the majority of wow player base, or do i have to remember you that blizzard doesn't make this game for the sake of 10 guilds competing in the race to world first, they do it for the money those 10man casual guilds players that "none gives a fuck about" bring.

[Tiberria]

We haven't been OP since we lost 4T14, and we've been below average since 5.3. I don't see how your post is relevant. LoD is a smart heal, EF isn't. There is your difference.

Well, if you use the theory that raid cooldowns need to be removed when comparing throughput (to properly reflect damage reduction cooldowns not showing up on meters), Paladins on live are still the 2nd highest healer and only 5% behind Disc.

These are 25H average HPS numbers with the average healing from Tranq type raid cooldowns removed.

Disc Priest 91054
Holy Paladin 86799
Holy Priest 86295
Resto Druid 76843
Mistweaver 76076
Resto Shaman 70750

[Deleted]

It's pretty clear that the Disc/HPally 10 man dominance gets even more prominent the higher the progression.

I said top kills...None gives a fuck about casual 10 man guild X who killed Ra-den last week.

[Cairhiin]

Well, if you use the theory that raid cooldowns need to be removed when comparing throughput (to properly reflect damage reduction cooldowns not showing up on meters), Paladins on live are still the 2nd highest healer and only 5% behind Disc.

These are 25H average HPS numbers with the average healing from Tranq type raid cooldowns removed.

Disc Priest 91054
Holy Paladin 86799
Holy Priest 86295
Resto Druid 76843
Mistweaver 76076
Resto Shaman 70750

Can you please stop with your raid cooldown removing? That's retarded, of course they count when someone Tranquility heals for 7-8 million a pop. What do we Paladins have in comparison? Oh yah Devotion Aura that is useless. Your Shaman propaganda is starting to get really annoying. You should post in the Shaman forums and keep this thread on topic.

[Kyuuseishu]

Just as a reply to your previous post tibbee, you are correct overall HR does have a high overheal %, but when you are actually stacked (which is where its supposed to shine) with the damage being thrown out that % does decrease into the 50% region. That is from your own logs btw, the earliest kill that I could find myself that hadn't expired had a 46% overheal in the final part. But this has gone off topic a tad too far so it's probably time to take it into private mails ^^.

[Tiberria]

Can you please stop with your raid cooldown removing? That's retarded, of course they count when someone Tranquility heals for 7-8 million a pop. What do we Paladins have in comparison? Oh yah Devotion Aura that is useless. Your Shaman propaganda is starting to get really annoying. You should post in the Shaman forums and keep this thread on topic.

Then, the issue is that Devo Aura is not strong enough relative to the other cooldowns. I've already said it should be buffed to 12 seconds or 40%. However, you're comparing apples with oranges if you are looking at throughput for one class that includes their raid CD and another class that excludes their raid CD.

Maybe what they need to do to make people happy is just remove Devo Aura and Barrier and replace them with Tranq type abilities so that every class can be the same.

[nightfalls]

We haven't been OP since we lost 4T14, and we've been below average since 5.3. I don't see how your post is relevant. LoD is a smart heal, EF isn't. There is your difference.

Right, that's a secondary problem. Honestly the rotation feels like shit, you could increase SH bonus to 100% per stack and LoD by 100% and it would still feel like shit. Of course it would do quite a lot of healing though.

[Deleted]

Can you please stop with your raid cooldown removing? That's retarded, of course they count when someone Tranquility heals for 7-8 million a pop. What do we Paladins have in comparison? Oh yah Devotion Aura that is useless. Your Shaman propaganda is starting to get really annoying. You should post in the Shaman forums and keep this thread on topic.

Seems like everyone has forgot about Dark Animus, Devotion Aura was the best raidcd in the entire game to survive the Interrupting Jolt. You can't use barrier since everyone is so spread out. And let me remind you that the majority off the fights in SoO is spread encounters where you can't use Barrier as effective as Devotion Aura.

On farm where you have enough HP to survive certain abilities without a damage reduction CD then it's obvious that raidhealing CDs will do more. But on progress where you actually need to reduce damage else you're dead then Devotion Aura is actually insane, I remember us progressing on Dark Animus and we regreted that we didn't have any ret pala.

[Deleted]

Seems like everyone has forgot about Dark Animus, Devotion Aura was the best raidcd in the entire game to survive the Interrupting Jolt. You can't use barrier since everyone is so spread out. And let me remind you that the majority off the fights in SoO is spread encounters where you can't use Barrier as effective as Devotion Aura.

On farm where you have enough HP to survive certain abilities without a damage reduction CD then it's obvious that raidhealing CDs will do more. But on progress where you actually need to reduce damage else you're dead then Devotion Aura is actually insane, I remember us progressing on Dark Animus and we regreted that we didn't have any ret pala.

We did but we didn't use him because their damage was dog. We also didn't use more dps warriors for raid cd because their dmg was dog.

[nightfalls]

On Devo Aura: Malkorok's another double whammy.

[Deleted]

We did but we didn't use him because their damage was dog. We also didn't use more dps warriors for raid cd because their dmg was dog.

No, we didn't use him because he was a far inferior player.

[Tiberria]

Just as a reply to your previous post tibbee, you are correct overall HR does have a high overheal %, but when you are actually stacked (which is where its supposed to shine) with the damage being thrown out that % does decrease into the 50% region. That is from your own logs btw, the earliest kill that I could find myself that hadn't expired had a 46% overheal in the final part. But this has gone off topic a tad too far so it's probably time to take it into private mails ^^.

You are actually stacked for the entirety of Ra-Den and the raid is actually taking a fairly decent amount of damage (400-500k damage taken per second in P1 of Ra-Den). Shaman should be shining in P1 of that fight - it's moderate to high damage with the raid stacked in a pile, but are not because of absorbs, other classes having higher burst, etc. There is not a fight this entire tier where HR overheal was below 75% on progression. That means that those LFR logs that show Shaman dominating with 50% HR overheal are skewed, because that overheal will be closer to 75% in a competent raid on 25H progression (let alone farm). When the overheal goes from 50% to 75%, the healing done by HR actually drops by more than half, because not only is it less total healing, the targets will be at a higher HP%, so our mastery gains are reduced too.

TLDR, it is 100% predictable that the amount that Healing Rain heals for on those PTR LFR logs people are getting bent out of shape over will actually be about 40% of that amount in actual 25H progression.

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On Devo Aura: Malkorok's another double whammy.

So, what you probably need is Devo Aura buffed to 40% and changed to affect all damage. PW: Barrier would probably have to be buffed to 60% to compensate for the fact that it has a small radius.

If they did that, the DR cooldowns would be close to mathematically on par with the average amount the Tranq like cooldowns heal for, and you could correctly compare throughput across classes by just removing the healing done by Tranq, DH, HTT and Revival.

[Fhi]

This is not what we wanted to see.

There have been multiple warnings given in thread about derailing the thread by hidden agendas and posting about classes that aren't holy paladins. We love the discussions that have been going on here. Unfortunately, some folks have chosen to ignore those warnings repeatedly, and the last few pages have been filled with nothing but bickering.

Regretfully, quite a few infractions have been handed out. A new thread has been created here. Please remember to report posts that are off-topic, and do not engage in off-topic back and forths. Trust the mod team to clean up those posts quickly so that healthy, useful discussion can continue.