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  1. #41
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rawhammer View Post
    My comment was in context that the 2 min passive SS would replace our current SS spell if chosen on that tier as per Ganstagore's comment.

    Well if the choice on that tier was to have selfless healer (meh), EF (better but still meh) or to replace SS with the 2 min passive version (situational but likely meh) i know which i'd normally take - EF. Then again i doubt id actually cast EF often if at all as ShotR uptime would still be better use of resources.
    1) That's not the case. (as others pointed and you realized, it's not a replace this with that).

    2) By taking EF you are replacing an ability - Word of Glory - with a shitty version that only does 70% of the healing but has ticks. "Situationally" if your AP is so high that your heal is all overheal, well, go for it, but otherwise you're doing yourself a disfavor over just taking nothing at all in that shitty tier.

    (I understand perhaps it may still be an HPS gain as a tank, but we are "looking past the meters" (remember, ghostcrawler?) and realizing that as a tank, mitigating spike damage is much more important than some mostly overhealing, tank-healer-sniping ticks.)


    Right now in reality, Holy is the only class that's looking at some shitty Hobson's choice where you can take 1 of 2 shit tier talents (that basically amount to taking nothing), or take a 3rd talent that makes your ability "maybe" better, and likely (in many situations) simply a trap.

    New record even better than the old mage 90 talents: I don't think there's a single fucking talent in game right now that actually takes an ability that you currently have and has the potential to make it worse. Glyphs? Perhaps. Talents? None, until now.
    Last edited by nightfalls; 2013-06-20 at 08:59 AM.

  2. #42
    Brewmaster rawhammer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    1) That's not the case.

    2) By taking EF you are replacing an ability - Word of Glory - with a shitty version that only does 70% of the healing but has ticks. "Situationally" if your AP is so high that your heal is all overheal, well, go for it, but otherwise you're doing yourself a disfavor over just taking nothing at all in that shitty tier.
    1) good - was just a thought that it may be.

    2) if 1) was the case, then agree EF would be bad on second read - didnt see the burst heal element get nerfed.

    Still. What choice does Prot have in that tier now apart from the "new" SS ability (is it now called Holy Shield?)
    Keeping it real since 1864.

  3. #43
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rawhammer View Post
    2) if 1) was the case, then agree EF would be bad on second read - didnt see the burst heal element get nerfed.
    Right. The ticks getting nerfed would sorta annoy me but isn't actually that upsetting (assuming they fix our toolkit which isn't looking likely). This actually has me quite pissed and making me wonder if I want to take SOO off or go on my druid or something (most likely, the former).

    I might even start posting on official forums /gag.

  4. #44
    Keyboard Turner Twister's Avatar
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    I am bit of disappointed to see another "buff" to our survivability ( which is A-OK at this moment ). I was hoping to see changes which would increase our singe target DPS. I would like to come closer to those damn Monk/Druids tanks who are pulling 30-40k dps more. ( I am talking about fights where both tanks have equal uptime and similiar values of vengeance )

    My wish is change to SoV so it's dmg is not negligible compared to healing from SoI. Basically, give us a choice if we want to help with damage / or with healing.

  5. #45
    what does Flash Light give with 3 stacks of SH and high amount of Vengeance?

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Doctorant View Post
    Read all the patch notes.

    SS in its current form is going to be baseline for prot. This new SS is just a bonus.
    Yes, I finally saw something official about it. So yes: that IS awesome and I'd recommend to take this as prot. For holy/ret: still maybe. SH got a nice buff for holy. But still you have to use judgement.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by zloitima View Post
    what does Flash Light give with 3 stacks of SH and high amount of Vengeance?
    Dunno about Vengeance, but in pvp im healing my buddy (and sometimes myself) for 100-300k FoL every what, 5 sec?

    I doubt any shield can beat that.

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-20 at 11:42 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Twister View Post
    I am bit of disappointed to see another "buff" to our survivability ( which is A-OK at this moment ).
    Guess you are talking PVE, because in PVP we need def buffs.
    Our single target dmg is alrdy retarded.
    Last edited by wickedbastard; 2013-06-20 at 09:46 AM.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by wickedbastard View Post
    Dunno about Vengeance, but in pvp im healing my buddy (and sometimes myself) for 100-300k FoL every what, 5 sec?

    I doubt any shield can beat that.

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-20 at 11:42 AM ----------


    Guess you are talking PVE, because in PVP we need def buffs.
    Our single target dmg is alrdy retarded.
    5 seconds... what? I think you mean ~15, and that is IF it crits.

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by CaptUntsAhts View Post
    5 seconds... what? I think you mean ~15, and that is IF it crits.
    Myeah i was a tad off It always feels pretty quick tho.
    And it seems to crit a lot for me.

  10. #50
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Homsel View Post
    Yes, I finally saw something official about it. So yes: that IS awesome and I'd recommend to take this as prot. For holy/ret: still maybe. SH got a nice buff for holy. But still you have to use judgement.
    That's not a buff, you're far better off just casting heals instead of judging. "Maybe" a talent like that could be usable in PvP, even then it requires you to judge instead of just healing.

  11. #51
    The Patient Cronosmash's Avatar
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    About Ret PVP:

    So I'm going just for numbers here. This may be broken logic (and show me where) but stay with me.

    With Selfless Healer we get to heal self for about 40-50k (or 80-100k Crit) and others for 80-90k (or 160-180k Crit) WITHOUT AW and big buffs, every about 20 secs (rounding up from 15 secs).

    So let's say with we self heal for 60k (with baked buffs, AW and Crit - so it's rounded way low) and selfless heal for 120k (again, I did a lot of 230k selfless heals).

    So we get about 3 of those 60/120k heals every minute. Making it 180/360k heals per minute and 360/720k heals on 2 mins.

    So let's WAAAAAAAAAAY ROUND DOWN (not sure of the english expression but you get the idea).

    We can heal self for 300k and others for 600k every 2 mins with selfless healers with the cost of a GCD and judging on a OK basis.

    ---

    With this new/old SS we get an absorv of 30% of our life (120k) every 2 mins IF we get to low life.

    Upside is that there is no judge/GCD involved but we get to go down to 30%.

    ---

    In short we can choose:

    -> A "Judge and GCD" on demand heal for 300k on self or 600k on others (that usualy is about 500 self and 1000 selfless) with a 15 secs liquid reliable (numbers for 2 mins).

    Or

    -> A "Being Focused" automatic absorv for 120k (fixed) with a 2 mins solid reliable.

    What seems to be the better choice?

    ---

    Therefore I think the new/old SS should have a 30 secs CD. So the numbers get to 480k absorv with a 30 secs solid passive (numbers on 2 mins).

    Or SS should have a 120% life absorv with the 2 mins CD - so the numbers get even also.

    This SS makes a little better for survivability than SH, but not nearly as good to off heals.

    To me these numbers are really clear. The SS must be arround 4 times stronger to be worth using. Being increasing the absorv or decreasing the CD.

    ---

    To people who gonna say something about this becoming OP remember Touch of Karma is BASELINE, absorv 100% of life damage taken and REFLECT it back (the MOST RETRIBUTION spell in the game), and Sacrifical Pact that creates a absorv for even more than 400k on demand with a 2 min CD.

    I could go on, but I'm sure you agree with me already.

    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...14367?page=1#0
    "I notice my rating actually boosts when I remember to have fun. Playing competitively while also enjoying yourself and focussing on having good games instead of getting rating is way more important.
    After 2.2k the fun devolves into a twisted realm suffering and despair and you will quit pvp from extreme traumatic stress and you will probably xfer to Moon Guard and join some Belf rp guild and become a prostitute in Silvermoon."by Clukclukbewm

  12. #52
    Moderator Nobleshield's Avatar
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    Just a bit confused about this. So Prot gets the current version of SS still, BUT we can choose to take the SS talent which turns it from an on-demand absorb that we keep refreshed to a passive similar but weaker to the old AD that only activates < 30% health? That sounds like a talent Prot would NEVER take, so they changed it from a talent we MUST take to giving us that talent baseline and changing it into a talent we'll NEVER take?

    Or is the SS talent a separate ability entirely to the SS prot ability? So if we take that we get an on-demand absorb, PLUS a big absorb at low health?
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  13. #53
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Prot: You get Holy Shield (the old "sacred shield") as baseline.

    You then have a choice between 3 Level 45 talents, none of which replace Holy Shield.

  14. #54
    The Patient Cronosmash's Avatar
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    Arothand, exactly.
    "I notice my rating actually boosts when I remember to have fun. Playing competitively while also enjoying yourself and focussing on having good games instead of getting rating is way more important.
    After 2.2k the fun devolves into a twisted realm suffering and despair and you will quit pvp from extreme traumatic stress and you will probably xfer to Moon Guard and join some Belf rp guild and become a prostitute in Silvermoon."by Clukclukbewm

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Twister View Post
    I am bit of disappointed to see another "buff" to our survivability ( which is A-OK at this moment ). I was hoping to see changes which would increase our singe target DPS. I would like to come closer to those damn Monk/Druids tanks who are pulling 30-40k dps more. ( I am talking about fights where both tanks have equal uptime and similiar values of vengeance )

    My wish is change to SoV so it's dmg is not negligible compared to healing from SoI. Basically, give us a choice if we want to help with damage / or with healing.
    Remember that Prot paladin pve isn't the only aspect to Paladins in this game. Ret Paladin's are one worst specs in terms of personal survivability for PvP. This change helps that a lot. (needs a 1min cd though)
    Last edited by nyc81991; 2013-06-20 at 12:44 PM.

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by nyc81991 View Post
    Remember that Prot paladin pve isn't the only aspect to Paladins in this game. Ret Paladin's are one worst specs in terms of personal survivability for PvP. This change helps that a lot. (needs a 1min cd though)
    Even then you still want to take SH over SS, with 1min cd. IMO

  17. #57
    Pandaren Monk Freia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nyc81991 View Post
    Remember that Prot paladin pve isn't the only aspect to Paladins in this game. Ret Paladin's are one worst specs in terms of personal survivability for PvP. This change helps that a lot. (needs a 1min cd though)
    No it doesn't. You lose Selfless Healer to take it and selfless healer is a big reason you bring a ret to arena.

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Freia View Post
    No it doesn't. You lose Selfless Healer to take it and selfless healer is a big reason you bring a ret to arena.
    Yeah, the new Sacred Shield is incredibly underwhelming. The 2 min cooldown is extremely long, making it a crappier version of our old sacred shield or angelic bulwark. This ability is nowhere near as strong as selfless healer and will need major buffs to be even remotely viable in PvP. A lower internal cooldown and a secondary effect (such as the healing received bonus of old sacred shield), are very much needed in order for this talent to be taken seriously by any PvPer. Another option is to have it affect multiple people like Holy's version via Beacon of Light.

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Freia View Post
    No it doesn't. You lose Selfless Healer to take it and selfless healer is a big reason you bring a ret to arena.
    It is a trade off. If you are going to be trained the whole time than Sacred Shield might be better (with a 1min cd). I kind of wish that they made this version of Sacred Shield Baseline for Ret though.

  20. #60
    Ghostcrawler's rational for giving Sacred Shield to Prot was because they never took anything else. And this is exactly why the new talent system is so flawed. Ret takes SH, Holy takes EF, and Prot takes SS. If your going to make one talent baseline for one spec, why not give it to the rest of us? I actually think giving Sacred Shield baseline for every Spec would be the right move. That means Ret doesn't need to choose between SH or the new SS, Prot will remain as it is, and the nerf to EF might not have hit Holy too hard if they also had the ability to cast SS.

    It just makes so much more sense. This is what paladins need. The devs prove time and time again that they don't know how to do anything for Paladins. I thought the general consensus is that Ret's are amazing at off-heals, and that's what they do better than anyone else. If you take that away from them, then what do we have? We would literally become a 2-minute class through and through. We've got 2 minutes on burst, and 2 minutes on our defensive CD's. In between that, we will have nothing else. No off-heals, and weak damage. I think choice is good, but with these new talent trees, there are some obvious choices that are far better for certain Specs in almost all cases, specifically SH for Ret. Ret will not sacrifice SH because the personal/group benefit is much higher than taking a 2min Sacred Shield for strictly personal survivability.

    Ret's personal survivability is something that should be given to them as a baseline passive/talent. It should not be given to us a choice. Obviously no one at Blizz plays a paladin.

    Watching the dev's play around with Paladins is hilarious. They always seem to find a new way to never give us what we need.
    Last edited by cletis1234; 2013-06-20 at 04:05 PM.

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