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  1. #1
    Dreadlord
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    Riposte - some early thoughts

    Usually I try to be indifferent to all patchnotes and announced changes until they actually occur. The past has shown, that one can avoid many unpleasant moments doing so. Then (after realising, that neither DD nor Prot Tier 16 Setboni were nerfed) I stumbled over Riposte:

    Protection
    Riposte (New) When you dodge or parry any attack, you gain 50% of your Parry and Dodge as additional Critical Strike for 20 sec. Warrior - Protection Spec.

    Considering, that, additionally to our critical blocks, shieldbash and devestate will be able to enrage us, I think that new ability is pretty sweet. I checked my current stats and I roughly have 32 % avoidance (gearscore 532), which will transfer into 16% crit + 5% basecrit + 5% critbuff - 3% bossmalus = 23% crit or 26% crit against trash/adds. The duration of 20 seconds will quite surely enable us to maintain the buff as long as we keep bashing stuff.
    This has some nice side effects. Recklessness becomes a pseudo-cooldown, granting us 30% crit, pushing us over 50%, thus, flooding us with rage, i.e. mitigation. Furthermore it will push our damage and threat: Devestate is our FILLER and Shieldbash can procc from Sword and Board.

    The big question is what we will gem in 5.4, assuming those abilities won´t be changed. While I´m being really bad at math, I can think of two options. Both favor hit/exp over all, for them being our most certain rage-generators. After that, we will have to decide if we favor crit or mastery. Crit will potentially grant us more rage, thus, more mitigation, while mastery will boost blockchance as well as critical blockchance, with critical blocks also granting us enrage.

    As I mentioned, I´m bad at math, but currently I feel like having roughly every fourth strike a crit is already okay. With gemming one might reach 30% crit or more, but I wonder if that is worth sacrificing mastery to a great extent. Perhaps someone wishes to throw some numbers around?


    Thoughts, anyone?


    Edit: Just wanted to add, that every tank´s taunt ability gets improved. Taunt will grant 200% threat in the following 3 seconds. Will be nice in early stages when you have to out-threat bursting enhancers and mages with mirror images. Oh, Monks don´t get that buff btw. Some lulz was had.
    Edit 2: Deathknights get Riposte as well. Earned, i guess. They have been in a bad spot lately as well.
    Last edited by Valech; 2013-06-20 at 12:39 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by magnuzze View Post
    considering that TG warriors was here since Vanilla, and DK's got into the World of warcraft in WoTLK... you can say that they have been stealing 2-handed from us.
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkfriend View Post
    There is a reason you don't just pull numbers out of your ass and throw them on the forums. People will show you wrong. Ass numbers are useless.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wrien View Post
    I can't believe warriors wine about their defensive capabilities. DK's and warrs are even on heals.

  2. #2
    Pretty exciting new ability!

  3. #3
    Warchief
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    I think it's aimed at making DKs/Warriors in particular have scaling in line with the agility tanks. It should make shorten the gap in tank DPS considerably.

  4. #4
    I wonder if it scales from % or rating. Hopefully %, but I wouldn't be surprised to see rating either.

  5. #5
    Dreadlord
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    Well, currently the wording is "Parry and Dodge" and not "parry- and Dodgerating". The wording is quite similar to the reduced damage wording when Blood DKs use Army: They get their Dodge and Parry as damage reduction while Army channels.
    Quote Originally Posted by magnuzze View Post
    considering that TG warriors was here since Vanilla, and DK's got into the World of warcraft in WoTLK... you can say that they have been stealing 2-handed from us.
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkfriend View Post
    There is a reason you don't just pull numbers out of your ass and throw them on the forums. People will show you wrong. Ass numbers are useless.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wrien View Post
    I can't believe warriors wine about their defensive capabilities. DK's and warrs are even on heals.

  6. #6
    Criiiiiit! \o/
    This and the "crit makes you enrage" are really two steps in the right direction. May still not be perfect, I'll wait for a bit of thoughts and TC, but definitely good news.

  7. #7
    What I'm wondering is if the Enrage effect from crits has an internal cooldown, like the current 3 second ICD for critical block enrages. Seems pointless to stack crit beyond a certain point if so.

  8. #8
    Dreadlord
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    Quote Originally Posted by warbean View Post
    What I'm wondering is if the Enrage effect from crits has an internal cooldown, like the current 3 second ICD for critical block enrages. Seems pointless to stack crit beyond a certain point if so.
    I wasn´t aware of such an internal cooldown. But I guess enrage from.. let´s say, more active abilities don´t have such a cooldown, do they? I mean I´m pretty sure enrage can procc twice from a critical Bloodthirst followed by a critical Colossus Smash. Regarding that, I´d guess critical Devestates could procc multiple enrages in a row, thou that sounds kinda overpowered. If there is no internal cooldown for devestate and shieldbash but for critical blocks, I think crit gains some value over mastery.
    Quote Originally Posted by magnuzze View Post
    considering that TG warriors was here since Vanilla, and DK's got into the World of warcraft in WoTLK... you can say that they have been stealing 2-handed from us.
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkfriend View Post
    There is a reason you don't just pull numbers out of your ass and throw them on the forums. People will show you wrong. Ass numbers are useless.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wrien View Post
    I can't believe warriors wine about their defensive capabilities. DK's and warrs are even on heals.

  9. #9
    Moderator eddytheone's Avatar
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    Means that I will have a permanent 21% extra crit at the very least, very nice and exactly the change I was looking for and also serves to increase the value of Dodge and Parry because lets face it, they were pretty laughable up until now
    For your stat weights also means that you can effectively take 50% of any Dodge or Parry value on an item as crit and gear thusly, also has the added benefit of steamrollering over the vengeance caps (not that I think you will reach them anyway) resulting in a MUCH higher DPS output for both DK's and Prot warriors

  10. #10
    Scarab Lord Valarius's Avatar
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    I see this (and the DK one) as a move towards "DPS" playstyle for 2 specs that were flagging. Obviously they can't remove dodge and parry from gear yet, it would be too disruptive. What they're obviously doing for now is giving Warr/DK access to (and a reason to want) some DPS stats to bridge the gap since the other 3 tanks are all now using DPS gear.

    I fully expect next expansion will see Dodge/Parry gear removed in favour of a model where plate is streamlined and Warrior/DK tanks join Paladins in using DPS gear. Parry will still exist, maybe through a higher conversion rate on Strength or something. It just makes more sense and feels far better IMO to make gear provide a real, noticeable difference in the way you play your character as it gears up. I could never go back to 0% haste on my Paladin now.
    Last edited by Valarius; 2013-06-20 at 03:12 AM.

  11. #11
    Stood in the Fire Xenlol's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mirishka View Post
    Pretty exciting new ability!
    Passive ability

  12. #12
    hmm, this makes me think dodge/parry may beat out mastery in SoO.
    certainly what i'll be trying.
    Damosapien - DPS(whatever spec is better in that teir)/prot Warrior http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...apien/advanced
    Damodrood - Resto/feral(hybrid) Druid http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...drood/advanced
    Damoo - Blood/frost Death knight http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...r/Damoo/simple

  13. #13
    excellent buff. i hope it will bring us near the other tanks in terms of dps.

  14. #14
    Well...regarding dps we are currently missing 30%-40% to the monk. The crit change is ~ a 20% dps boost. Additionally we should now sit at 100% enrage. So that should boost us even more. At least on par with all the other tanks -monk.

    I really like that change. We needed it badly. Hopefully it cannot be exploited for unwanted results.
    Last edited by zorker; 2013-06-20 at 07:55 AM.
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  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Damosapien View Post
    hmm, this makes me think dodge/parry may beat out mastery in SoO.
    certainly what i'll be trying.
    Honestly, this change simply means what has been said by... I think Espada a number of times, Hit > Exp > Mastery to soft cap > Dodge/Parry to increase Surv & Crit. Instead of just reforging to crit to increase personal DPS it not becomes a double edges blade which I like. The little mitigation machine in me didn't like the idea of reforging Crit and now I have a strong feeling I wont have to!

    Atleast not untill some other cap/platue is reached which I doubt 5.4 gear would even be sufficient for.
    Odeanathus is one of those people who get's a job driving the special bus just to make fun of the disabled kids....

  16. #16
    Dreadlord
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valarius View Post
    I see this (and the DK one) as a move towards "DPS" playstyle for 2 specs that were flagging. Obviously they can't remove dodge and parry from gear yet, it would be too disruptive. What they're obviously doing for now is giving Warr/DK access to (and a reason to want) some DPS stats to bridge the gap since the other 3 tanks are all now using DPS gear.

    I fully expect next expansion will see Dodge/Parry gear removed in favour of a model where plate is streamlined and Warrior/DK tanks join Paladins in using DPS gear. Parry will still exist, maybe through a higher conversion rate on Strength or something. It just makes more sense and feels far better IMO to make gear provide a real, noticeable difference in the way you play your character as it gears up. I could never go back to 0% haste on my Paladin now.
    I think it will be vise versa. Tanks currently using only dps gear will be redesigned to profit from passiv abilities such as Riposte.
    Quote Originally Posted by magnuzze View Post
    considering that TG warriors was here since Vanilla, and DK's got into the World of warcraft in WoTLK... you can say that they have been stealing 2-handed from us.
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkfriend View Post
    There is a reason you don't just pull numbers out of your ass and throw them on the forums. People will show you wrong. Ass numbers are useless.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wrien View Post
    I can't believe warriors wine about their defensive capabilities. DK's and warrs are even on heals.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Odeanathus View Post
    Honestly, this change simply means what has been said by... I think Espada a number of times, Hit > Exp > Mastery to soft cap > Dodge/Parry to increase Surv & Crit. Instead of just reforging to crit to increase personal DPS it not becomes a double edges blade which I like. The little mitigation machine in me didn't like the idea of reforging Crit and now I have a strong feeling I wont have to!

    Atleast not untill some other cap/platue is reached which I doubt 5.4 gear would even be sufficient for.
    what is mastery soft cap ? how many?

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Alonzo33 View Post
    what is mastery soft cap ? how many?
    Exact number I do not know, 22000~ i believe, which is going to be obtanable in 5.4 it's potentially reachable with BiS TFHC gear in current content, i'm a long way off though I have to admit ^^
    Odeanathus is one of those people who get's a job driving the special bus just to make fun of the disabled kids....

  19. #19
    rofl ridiculous with my dk when i do dungeons and raids in dps gear i usually pull up to 100-110k dps single target, if riposte applies to this too, tank dps is going to be ridiculous

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Jartim00 View Post
    rofl ridiculous with my dk when i do dungeons and raids in dps gear i usually pull up to 100-110k dps single target, if riposte applies to this too, tank dps is going to be ridiculous
    Healers say thanks when you go running hc bosses in full dps gear :P. I think the intention is that tanks should not need to wear dps gear... and I don't think your dk has a lot of dps gear with dodge/parry on it? Otherwise I think it would qualify as tank gear

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