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  1. #101
    The Patient
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    Don't worry in a few patches, dodge/parry and shields are going the way of the dodo
    (or should I say the way of defense and rangedslot)
    Shields no longer required for wall and reflect, some would say it's for dps warriors, I say it's for building consensus.
    When there's no spell left in the game that say "requires a shield" guess what's the next step, you'll have a bunch of players saying "meh who cares, not like they're used for anything, they're just a stat stick, compensate by putting more stats on other slots and get rid of them".

    All hail the era of haste tanks vs crit tanks.

  2. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by Drii View Post
    Don't worry in a few patches, dodge/parry and shields are going the way of the dodo
    (or should I say the way of defense and rangedslot)
    Shields no longer required for wall and reflect, some would say it's for dps warriors, I say it's for building consensus.
    When there's no spell left in the game that say "requires a shield" guess what's the next step, you'll have a bunch of players saying "meh who cares, not like they're used for anything, they're just a stat stick, compensate by putting more stats on other slots and get rid of them".

    All hail the era of haste tanks vs crit tanks.
    This smells bad enough that I believe you pulled it out of your ass. You still need a shield to...I dunno...BLOCK.

  3. #103
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    The current implementation is kinda crap, 50% of ratings isn't much crit at all.

    If any one (but not all) of the following changes are implemented then it should be far more appropriate:

    1. Add the parry you get from strength to the calculation of Riposte
    2. Increase the percentage of ratings used
    3. Change from ratings to avoidance percentages

  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by idefiler6 View Post
    This smells bad enough that I believe you pulled it out of your ass. You still need a shield to...I dunno...BLOCK.
    That was a tongue in cheek comment but since you opted for taking it seriously and make such a fine display of manners

    Let's run with the joke a little... see if we can find you some intelligence or failing that... I dunno... a sense of humor?

    There's 3 classes that can equip shields: Warrior, Paladin, Shaman.
    Of those Shaman has 0 spells that require a shield.
    Paladin has Block (passive), Avenger's Shield, Shield of the Righteous.
    Warrior has Block (passive), Shield Block, Shield Barrier, Shield Slam.
    Yep that's 5 active spells in the whole game coming 5.4.

    Used to be there was something called Shield Bash, something called Shield Wall and something called Spell Reflection.
    For lols this is the 'old' Spell Reflection description: "Raise your shield reflecting the next spell cast on you."
    Since it no longer requires a shield I guess it will become "Raise your chin reflecting the next spell cast on you." or something to that effect.

    This is a game where they have removed your stances, turned your rage into a re-painted focus resource, the stat graveyard (stats removed from the game) is almost as large as the stats remaining.
    All 5 tanking classes value pure offensive stats (hit/exp) and the only hybrid - by design - stat (mastery) higher than pure defensive stats,
    3 of them value 2 more offensive stats (haste and or crit) higher than defensive stats and Blizzard's fix to that is create a conversion of avoidance to offensive stat for the 2 left behind. (an obvious temporary fix if you ever saw one)
    Gear has been on a trajectory of convergence for 2 expansions now with hit/exp/mastery/haste/crit shared among tank/dps role and dodge/parry used as reforge fodder.
    But the idea that they're moving towards homogenizing gear further so that all classes that use the same armor class desire the same stats is so preposterous
    The fact that shields stick out like a sore thumb against that direction (all tank/mdps plate classes sharing off-set pieces, all leather tank/mdps sharing off-set pieces) and spells that require shields are becoming an endangered species is irrelevant in your eyes.
    Shield Wall the most iconic shield using ability in the game no longer requires a shield but will instead "display a shield spell effect if used without one" tells you that "Block" is such an insurmountable hurdle.
    If you can't see the writing on the wall that's not my issue.

    You may note that I said "a few patches" not "tomorrow".

    Anyway that's my last contribution to derailing the thread so peace out and prepare for avoidance disappearing from gear and mastery/haste, mastery/crit tanking in next expansion

  5. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by Drii View Post
    This is a game where they have removed your stances
    Lolwhut?

    Quote Originally Posted by Drii View Post
    The fact that shields stick out like a sore thumb against that direction (all tank/mdps plate classes sharing off-set pieces, all leather tank/mdps sharing off-set pieces) and spells that require shields are becoming an endangered species is irrelevant in your eyes.
    How many spell in the game requires an off-hand? I don't mean a weapon in off-hand but a caster item held in off-hand.
    I can't recall a single one, and afaik it has been the case since wow vanilla. Yet, off-hands are still there.
    Warrior soloing spreadsheet.

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  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by Senen View Post
    Lolwhut?
    You missed the fact that no spell is tied to stance and your actionbars don't page when you switch?

  7. #107
    Quote Originally Posted by Drii View Post
    You missed the fact that no spell is tied to stance and your actionbars don't page when you switch?
    This change severely blurred the lines between a good warrior (in pvp) and an average warrior, keybinds aside. Having said that no matter what stancedance / equipshield / shieldreflect or other defensive cd macro I used (Trust me I used them all). There were always times where for some incredibly frustrating reason my shield didn't equip. No move should ever have to work like that, no move should require macro's really. To manual equip 1hander shield and cd is clunky as fuck, particularly in pvp where it can mean the difference between reflecting a cc or reducing incoming damage to survive a burst.

    To sum it up, I agree with your concerns as far as homogenisation and dumbing down of complexity but the stance dancing and equipping a shield to defend yourself needed to be addressed.

    Back on topic, Riposte is still in it's early stages and i believe it is an attempt to make the defensive stats you mentioned more relevant.
    Looking at the state of tanking and recent changes to the way warriors behave without a shield, I can see why you suggest blizz would do away with parry and dodge and perhaps even the use of a shield. A bit over the top (damage limitation perhaps?) but I can understand your concern.
    Last edited by spaceape; 2013-06-24 at 07:01 AM. Reason: on topic contribution.

  8. #108
    I made two PTR chars for today testing one like Suprep (manage to get bit more due to Windsong enchants as it could proc both mastery/crit, hate that haste procs tho) and one purely as it is now with little change like mastery>crit>parry>dodge (with that I only manage 15% crit with DPS meta and Primo trinket compared to almost 40% crit 40(on proc) mastery). Dunno which one would be more beneficial for actual raiding (and I mean here being competitive vs Paladins/Monks to be actually IN the raid or swap them) and how Crit build would end up with damage taken as we lack serious self sustained healing for huge beating.

    If the only real option is to keep going mastery or stamina builds they have to boost that crit to % or it will be same old shit.

  9. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by Drii View Post
    Don't worry in a few patches, dodge/parry and shields are going the way of the dodo
    (or should I say the way of defense and rangedslot)
    Shields no longer required for wall and reflect, some would say it's for dps warriors, I say it's for building consensus.
    When there's no spell left in the game that say "requires a shield" guess what's the next step, you'll have a bunch of players saying "meh who cares, not like they're used for anything, they're just a stat stick, compensate by putting more stats on other slots and get rid of them".

    All hail the era of haste tanks vs crit tanks.
    Jokes aside I don't see shields ever being removed, the sheer amount of armor on it plus the ability to block with them makes them more than worth having.

    Dodge and Parry though are probably going to need either passively grant Crit/Haste (rather than how Riposte currently functions) or Crit/Haste will be converted to Dodge/Parry while in a tanking specialization to make it easier to transition from tanking to dps.

  10. #110
    Quote Originally Posted by spaceape View Post
    This change severely blurred the lines between a good warrior (in pvp) and an average warrior, keybinds aside. Having said that no matter what stancedance / equipshield / shieldreflect or other defensive cd macro I used (Trust me I used them all). There were always times where for some incredibly frustrating reason my shield didn't equip. No move should ever have to work like that, no move should require macro's really. To manual equip 1hander shield and cd is clunky as fuck, particularly in pvp where it can mean the difference between reflecting a cc or reducing incoming damage to survive a burst.

    To sum it up, I agree with your concerns as far as homogenisation and dumbing down of complexity but the stance dancing and equipping a shield to defend yourself needed to be addressed.

    Back on topic, Riposte is still in it's early stages and i believe it is an attempt to make the defensive stats you mentioned more relevant.
    Looking at the state of tanking and recent changes to the way warriors behave without a shield, I can see why you suggest blizz would do away with parry and dodge and perhaps even the use of a shield. A bit over the top (damage limitation perhaps?) but I can understand your concern.
    So your idea of a good warrior is someone who can google a simple 3 line macro to stance dance or equip different items? Good warriors already do that, that's why blizz took it out. It's pointless and tedious.

  11. #111
    would love to see blizz add a talent like rifts combat veteran from the warlord soul allowing warriors to block without a shield.it would be a very nice buff for arms.

  12. #112
    Quote Originally Posted by meathead View Post
    would love to see blizz add a talent like rifts combat veteran from the warlord soul allowing warriors to block without a shield.it would be a very nice buff for arms.
    That works in Rift because they have 4 classes. If you want to block with a 2h, go DK.

  13. #113
    Quote Originally Posted by idefiler6 View Post
    That works in Rift because they have 4 classes. If you want to block with a 2h, go DK.
    yeah right-how many classes have nothing to do with it.if anything rift trees are far more complex and more choices then wow every had "atleast now adays".hell there was talk about blizz making arms able to tank or dps.yes gc came right out and said so,dks were kind of a test run to see if they wanted to let arms do the same.remember all 3 dks trees could tank at one point.

    it would not even be that op at all,arms you still have less d- stats then a prot warrior.all it would do really is give arms a nice boost defensively,kinda like adding in a damage reduction on battle stance.

  14. #114
    The Patient
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    Quote Originally Posted by idefiler6 View Post
    This smells bad enough that I believe you pulled it out of your ass. You still need a shield to...I dunno...BLOCK.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    We know you guys like active mitigation. We like it too. We totally agree -- it feels a lot better (and a lot more fun) than passive mitigation.

    However, in the short term, dodge and parry still exist. We want them to serve at least some value to tanks. They don't have to be your best stats, we just want them to feel like they're at least accomplishing something.

    Looking to the future, we want to keep the idea of "tank" stats around, but they may end up playing less of a role than they do today. Between Dodge and Parry, it's entirely possible that we'll cut one or another and embrace the idea of active mitigation even further. Those changes are just way too big for 5.4. We'd have to re-itemize hundreds of items, rebalance boss damage, change class mechanics, and so on.

    So to summarize: we love active mitigation, and we love that you love active mitigation. We want to push harder in that direction, but we can't fit that in for 5.4.
    Hahaha... tapers off to a moody silence
    "in the short term, dodge and parry still exist" guess the lines between joke and reality blur more each day in this game.

  15. #115
    That, is so vague it says nothing. So nothing is happening in 5.4. Thank you, that really provided some great insight into the wild speculation of perhaps one CM or dev (since there's no source and no link to the original, thank you for that too).

  16. #116
    Pandaren Monk
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    Quote Originally Posted by idefiler6 View Post
    That, is so vague it says nothing. So nothing is happening in 5.4. Thank you, that really provided some great insight into the wild speculation of perhaps one CM or dev (since there's no source and no link to the original, thank you for that too).
    Here's the link: http://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/2...ladin-changes/

    Ontopic:

    "Riposte now grants 75% of your Parry and Dodge as additional Critical Strike for 20 sec, up from 50%.Protection Spec."

    still not nearly enough to give us the 30% crit GC tweeted about, right ?

  17. #117
    Quote Originally Posted by Radio View Post
    The current implementation is kinda crap, 50% of ratings isn't much crit at all.

    If any one (but not all) of the following changes are implemented then it should be far more appropriate:

    1. Add the parry you get from strength to the calculation of Riposte
    2. Increase the percentage of ratings used
    3. Change from ratings to avoidance percentages
    its free stats, don't complain! =p

  18. #118
    Quote Originally Posted by santa666 View Post
    "Riposte now grants 75% of your Parry and Dodge as additional Critical Strike for 20 sec, up from 50%.Protection Spec."

    still not nearly enough to give us the 30% crit GC tweeted about, right ?
    I'm wondering the same, any PTR tester that could give some insight?

    Again though, it still states Parry and Dodge, it says NOTHING about rating...... (although I'd imagen if they take actual % it'll be to strong @ 75%)
    Odeanathus is one of those people who get's a job driving the special bus just to make fun of the disabled kids....

  19. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by Odeanathus View Post
    I'm wondering the same, any PTR tester that could give some insight?

    Again though, it still states Parry and Dodge, it says NOTHING about rating...... (although I'd imagen if they take actual % it'll be to strong @ 75%)
    Just logged in to PTR. Changed to avoidance heavy reforge using hit/exp ->parry->dodge->mastery for:
    12.71% dodge (night elf)
    30.80% parry.

    I got riposte of: 7409 crit rating or ~19% crit total.
    This was in 541 gear and unenchanted/missing gem in new tier items.

    With reforging mastery as live:
    11.73% dodge
    26.46% parry

    Got riposte of: 4640 or 14.61% crit.

    Still sucks
    Last edited by santa666; 2013-07-10 at 07:57 AM.

  20. #120
    Ye, those numbers won't do it, so we'd be @ ~20% crit with normal reforging.... and 25% crit raidbuffed...

    Honestly that's pretty close to the 30% number they're aiming for though... but let's say they go 75% actual stats instead of ratings....

    That gives you 32%+ from your first reforge (that's without the 5% base and 5% raidbuffs..)

    Normal reforging; 28%+ without the 10%. All in all that would put us well over the 30% crit they're aiming for...

    The question is if ghost means 30% crit at the start of the tier, or decked out.... Decked out we'd get pretty close with reposite beeing 75% tbh.
    Odeanathus is one of those people who get's a job driving the special bus just to make fun of the disabled kids....

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