Page 6 of 9 FirstFirst ...
4
5
6
7
8
... LastLast
  1. #101
    of course lets not all Forget the Argent-Apothecary Judkins

    "I once worked for the so-called "Banshee-Queen", Sylvanas, as an apothecary. I used to admire her, but something's changed within her. She's not herself anymore.

    I broke my vows with the Forsaken and joined the Crusade. Now, I use my knowledge of alchemy to seek a counter-plague agent. And the Plaguewood is the perfect place to do so."

  2. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by delus View Post
    There is if you count the fact that they outright kill any newly raised undead that don't agree with them. This has been confirmed in the cdev and the person who wrote it also stated "returning to the grave" is through forceful violence. It's all about what you consider free will.
    that's not true. as we've seen in the undead starting zone, you aren't forced to join the forsaken or die. you have the choice of joining the forsaken, not joining them, or die. the forsaken are not slaves. they van leave the forsaken to pursue other goals if they wish. argent apothecary judkins left the forsaken to join the argent crusade. in the first levels, you see exactly how the process works:

    1 - you chose to join the forsaken? awesome
    2 - you chose not to join the forsaken, but you won't fight against us either? such a shame, but no biggie, we understand
    3 - you chose to rebel and fight against the forsaken? DIE MAGGOT!
    Warlorcs of Draenorc made me quit. You can't have my stuff.

  3. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by checking facts View Post
    that's not true. as we've seen in the undead starting zone, you aren't forced to join the forsaken or die. you have the choice of joining the forsaken, not joining them, or die. the forsaken are not slaves. they van leave the forsaken to pursue other goals if they wish. argent apothecary judkins left the forsaken to join the argent crusade. in the first levels, you see exactly how the process works:

    1 - you chose to join the forsaken? awesome
    2 - you chose not to join the forsaken, but you won't fight against us either? such a shame, but no biggie, we understand
    3 - you chose to rebel and fight against the forsaken? DIE MAGGOT!
    That is true. Go read the cdev response. And as for Judkins, we don't know when he left.
    Last edited by delus; 2013-06-21 at 09:43 PM.

  4. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by delus View Post
    That is true. Go read the cdev response. And as for Judkins, we don't know when he left.
    the Cdev response was incomplete. it was working in a binary setup where you can only be alliance or horde, but that setup is oversimplified and just isn't true. many undead leave the forsaken to join neutral organizations, like the argent crusade, the venture co. or even the darkmoon faire lol

    what the Cdev meant was that you can't go back to being their enemy. if you choose alliance (or scourge), they'll send you back to your grave. but if you decide not to be their enemy, they won't force you to fight for them. this same answer from the Cdev you are mentioning also says that "Free will is one of the cornerstones of Forsaken culture". the forsaken adore free will, and if you don't want to chill around in the undercity or join sylvanas' army, they're cool with that.

    http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/5208785474
    Warlorcs of Draenorc made me quit. You can't have my stuff.

  5. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by checking facts View Post
    the Cdev response was incomplete. it was working in a binary setup where you can only be alliance or horde, but that setup is oversimplified and just isn't true. many undead leave the forsaken to join neutral organizations, like the argent crusade, the venture co. or even the darkmoon faire lol

    what the Cdev meant was that you can't go back to being their enemy. if you choose alliance (or scourge), they'll send you back to your grave. but if you decide not to be their enemy, they won't force you to fight for them. this same answer from the Cdev you are mentioning also says that "Free will is one of the cornerstones of Forsaken culture". the forsaken adore free will, and if you don't want to chill around in the undercity or join sylvanas' army, they're cool with that.

    http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/5208785474
    Yes, it is all how you percieve free will. they will kill you if you don't join them. You are free to refuse and you are free to get killed.
    After the effects wear off, if the risen corpse has not been destroyed, they are given the same ultimatum that other Forsaken are offered: join the Dark Lady or return to the grave.
    Last edited by delus; 2013-06-21 at 10:35 PM.

  6. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by delus View Post
    Yes, it is all how you percieve free will. they will kill you if you don't join them. You are free to refuse and you are free to get killed.
    After the effects wear off, if the risen corpse has not been destroyed, they are given the same ultimatum that other Forsaken are offered: join the Dark Lady or return to the grave.
    ok. explain why the hundreds of undead that work for the venture co. aren't dead.

    after that, explain why the forsaken did nothing to kill lilian voss after she refused to join them. all they said was "what a shame, she didn't wanna join us ". that's far from an ultimatum. plain and simply, Cdev put that answer on a binary situation, where you are either alliance or horde. you can choose to be neither.

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-21 at 10:43 PM ----------

    in fact, here's some in-game quest text about this exact situation:

    http://www.wowpedia.org/Quest:The_Wakening

    You've done well, <class>. As you can see, not all of us have resigned to our fates. I'm glad to see that you're at least willing to work.

    Valred will be a valuable asset to the Forsaken. As for the other two... there is not much we can do. We cannot force them to join us.
    Warlorcs of Draenorc made me quit. You can't have my stuff.

  7. #107
    Quote Originally Posted by checking facts View Post
    ok. explain why the hundreds of undead that work for the venture co. aren't dead.

    after that, explain why the forsaken did nothing to kill lilian voss after she refused to join them. all they said was "what a shame, she didn't wanna join us ". that's far from an ultimatum. plain and simply, Cdev put that answer on a binary situation, where you are either alliance or horde. you can choose to be neither.

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-21 at 10:43 PM ----------

    in fact, here's some in-game quest text about this exact situation:

    http://www.wowpedia.org/Quest:The_Wakening
    Because all of those undead were from the previous generation. After raising undead herself she quickly begins to refine her methods. Hence the cdev binary answer.

  8. #108
    Titan Kangodo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    The Netherlands
    Posts
    13,006
    Quote Originally Posted by Wildberry View Post
    No, it's not following that train of thought at all, it's based off the fact that there is pretty much no difference between Sylvanas and the Lich King and hasn't been for a while, Garrosh was right about that, try reading sometime before you accuse someone of not basing their opinions off from facts. (For the record what "Fact" was there that would place Sylvanas as "Chaotic Good" as you said?)
    No difference between the two?
    Are you ignoring that the Lich King worked for the Burning Legion?
    Are you ignoring that the Lich King wanted to kill all living?
    Are you ignoring that the Lich King attacked our capitals?

    That's like saying that the USA and North Korea are no different because they both have nukes.
    It's not about what weapons you have, it's about how you use them that makes the difference.

  9. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by delus View Post
    Because all of those undead were from the previous generation. After raising undead herself she quickly begins to refine her methods. Hence the cdev binary answer.
    no. those quests are about new generation forsaken, raised by sylvanas' val'kyr.
    Warlorcs of Draenorc made me quit. You can't have my stuff.

  10. #110
    Brewmaster ghostblade's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    The edge of dark space!
    Posts
    1,326
    Quote Originally Posted by Callei View Post
    She forced his people into a war they could barely field the numbers for while they're still culturally reeling from the events at the Sunwell, held the Ghostlands hostage to get her way, made it clear that any leftover feelings of friendship were gone and that she only sees him as another tool to use. Things between them are bad enough that when she tried to get him to back her at a summit in Orgrimmar, Lor'themar indirectly supported Garrosh just to spite her.

    Also, it looks like he, Baine, and Vol'jin are the faces of the revolution. Sylvanas can't risk getting the Horde rebels out for her blood because she's pissed off at Lor'themar for mouthing off at her in the middle of a siege when he's apparently her superior in the rebellion's power structure (such as it is). All that would do would get her killed, get the Forsaken put down on the Horde's list after Orgimmar is secured, and give the Alliance an immediate upper hand in the Eastern Kingdoms front.

    Sylvanas is a hateful, spite-driven jerk, but she hasn't been written with that level of stupidity for a long time now.
    so the current rebellion power structure is Lorewise: vol'jin & the player as leader ( reason, you two started the Rebellion with the Blood oath)- Baine & lor'themar - Sylvanas - rebellion commanders - rest of the troops.

  11. #111
    Quote Originally Posted by checking facts View Post
    no. those quests are about new generation forsaken, raised by sylvanas' val'kyr.
    Those quests are and if you would have followed the story all the way through into WPL you would understand that her methodology has changed since the very beginning.

  12. #112
    Quote Originally Posted by delus View Post
    Those quests are and if you would have followed the story all the way through into WPL you would understand that her methodology has changed since the very beginning.
    I did follow those quests. nothing changed. she raises people, they are kinda nuts, she sends them to kill alliance. afterwards when they calm down, they can make the choice, that exists.

    also: I'm a pre and post-cata loremaster. you name a quest and odds are that I've already done it (and I always read quest text).
    Warlorcs of Draenorc made me quit. You can't have my stuff.

  13. #113
    Quote Originally Posted by checking facts View Post
    I did follow those quests. nothing changed. she raises people, they are kinda nuts, she sends them to kill alliance. afterwards when they calm down, they can make the choice, that exists.

    also: I'm a pre and post-cata loremaster. you name a quest and odds are that I've already done it (and I always read quest text).
    Good for you! Anyways, cdev pretty much explained it. You are either with them or against them. You join up or you are returned to the grave. Free will and all.

  14. #114
    Quote Originally Posted by delus View Post
    Good for you! Anyways, cdev pretty much explained it. You are either with them or against them. You join up or you are returned to the grave. Free will and all.
    You can cover your ears and stamp your feet all you want, you're still wrong. It's directly contradicted in the game. What's so hard to understand that the cdev's answer was incomplete?
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    I'm determined to someday make Med'an awesome. (MickyNeilson)
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    ´So.. sorry to bring this up but..you know that .."thing" (Med'an).. is that "thing" cannon still?
    ...as much have some have wished otherwise, yes. (Loreology)

  15. #115
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    You can cover your ears and stamp your feet all you want, you're still wrong. It's directly contradicted in the game. What's so hard to understand that the cdev's answer was incomplete?
    Funny you say that. Looks to me like you are wrong declaring the answer that cdev gave is invalid. But hey, they are only the people who make the game.

  16. #116
    Quote Originally Posted by delus View Post
    Funny you say that. Looks to me like you are wrong declaring the answer that cdev gave is invalid. But hey, they are only the people who make the game.
    And when they actually went and made the game, what happened? Oh, right, turns out people can choose not to join the Forsaken.

    I didn't say it was invalid. I said it was incomplete.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    I'm determined to someday make Med'an awesome. (MickyNeilson)
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    ´So.. sorry to bring this up but..you know that .."thing" (Med'an).. is that "thing" cannon still?
    ...as much have some have wished otherwise, yes. (Loreology)

  17. #117
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    And when they actually went and made the game, what happened? Oh, right, turns out people can choose not to join the Forsaken.
    This was the explanation they gave after making cata.

  18. #118
    Quote Originally Posted by delus View Post
    This was the explanation they gave after making cata.
    So I guess that one line counts as a retcon of the game quests and all the Forsaken members that left for other factions.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    I'm determined to someday make Med'an awesome. (MickyNeilson)
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    ´So.. sorry to bring this up but..you know that .."thing" (Med'an).. is that "thing" cannon still?
    ...as much have some have wished otherwise, yes. (Loreology)

  19. #119
    Quote Originally Posted by delus View Post
    Funny you say that. Looks to me like you are wrong declaring the answer that cdev gave is invalid. But hey, they are only the people who make the game.
    the true answer to this statement is: "isn't falstad dead?"

    the devs can make mistakes, forget about things and talk shit like everybody. because of that, what the game says takes priority over what they say on forums.
    Warlorcs of Draenorc made me quit. You can't have my stuff.

  20. #120
    You two are beyond hope.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •