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  1. #141
    Quote Originally Posted by razorfire View Post
    also back on topic, it MAY be possible she can raise non humans now, blizz isn't beyond retconning things like that into existance and the entire use of just humans is really there to explain why there aren't more undead varieties for players (all undead player-characters look human even though some foraken should logically be from high elves too)
    The Forsaken have members of other races, but those are converted Scourge. Before Cata, it might have made sense to allow PC Forsaken to have been elves except for breaking the connection with doing quests in Lordaeron. Like why would an undead elf give a shit about what's happening in the Lordaeron starting zones?

    Cata+ all the new Forsaken are raised by Val'kyr, so they're human.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    I'm determined to someday make Med'an awesome. (MickyNeilson)

  2. #142
    The Lightbringer Wildberry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    No difference between the two?
    Are you ignoring that the Lich King worked for the Burning Legion?
    Are you ignoring that the Lich King wanted to kill all living?
    Are you ignoring that the Lich King attacked our capitals?

    That's like saying that the USA and North Korea are no different because they both have nukes.
    It's not about what weapons you have, it's about how you use them that makes the difference.
    Are you ignoring that the Lich King was planning on stabbing the Burning Legion in the back since his creation?
    Are you ignoring that Sylvanas has had a drastic personality shift since the death of the Lich King?
    Are you ignoring that Sylvanas is disobeying orders from her superiors to NOT use the plague?

    From the looks of it Sylvanas is becoming exactly what she hated now that the need for vengeance has been fulfilled.
    She's gone from Morally questionable to Morally reprehensible.

    The Nuclear Weapon Comparison is bad, simply because The U.S. isn't conducting itself like NK is.
    Sylvanas is conducting herself like the Lich King is, she's just smart enough to realize she's not in a position of power to take on the whole world yet. Even the Argents, a neutral organization, has an eye on her.
    Quote Originally Posted by ImportantLoreInformation View Post
    Seriously. Can this guy please be banned from the forums?
    Quote Originally Posted by JimPaladin View Post
    Could we just get this fucking clown a ban or something? Pretty please?

  3. #143
    Quote Originally Posted by Wildberry View Post
    Are you ignoring that the Lich King was planning on stabbing the Burning Legion in the back since his creation?
    Are you ignoring that Sylvanas has had a drastic personality shift since the death of the Lich King?
    Are you ignoring that Sylvanas is disobeying orders from her superiors to NOT use the plague?

    From the looks of it Sylvanas is becoming exactly what she hated now that the need for vengeance has been fulfilled.
    She's gone from Morally questionable to Morally reprehensible.

    The Nuclear Weapon Comparison is bad, simply because The U.S. isn't conducting itself like NK is.
    Sylvanas is conducting herself like the Lich King is, she's just smart enough to realize she's not in a position of power to take on the whole world yet. Even the Argents, a neutral organization, has an eye on her.
    Except Sylvanas' only goal is the defense of herself and her kingdom and every person she resurrects has free will.

    Killing people with Blight, soldiers, siege weapons, etc. makes no difference; it's still killing people. It's just that tossing Blight around reduces Forsaken casualties. The only morality violation was during the development of Blight.
    Last edited by Aquamonkey; 2013-06-22 at 05:59 PM.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    I'm determined to someday make Med'an awesome. (MickyNeilson)

  4. #144
    The Lightbringer Wildberry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    Except Sylvanas' only goal is the defense of herself and her kingdom and every person she resurrects has free will.

    Killing people with Blight, soldiers, siege weapons, etc. makes no difference; it's still killing people. It's just that tossing Blight around reduces Forsaken casualties. The only morality violation was during the development of Blight.
    Free will? Look at Koltira.

    Lady Sylvanas Windrunner says: Arthas clearly failed when he created his death knights. You are still weak.
    Lady Sylvanas Windrunner says: Fortunately, I have agents that can help you... erase this weakness. Beneath the Undercity you go.
    Koltira Deathweaver yells: NO!
    Lady Sylvanas Windrunner says: Shh... quiet, death knight. When I'm finished with you, your fear will be gone.
    Lady Sylvanas Windrunner says: You can thank me later.

    Oh and the last line of Quest completion Dialogue
    "wouldn't plan on seeing Koltira anytime soon. Now that I have him... you can rest assured that any bonds he may have had with that Alliance scum will be thoroughly broken."

    The entirety of the WPL Questline shows why exactly Sylvanas is becoming so despicable.

    The Blight however has been forbidden since the Wrathgate, Sylvanas' continuation of it is bad enough.
    Quote Originally Posted by ImportantLoreInformation View Post
    Seriously. Can this guy please be banned from the forums?
    Quote Originally Posted by JimPaladin View Post
    Could we just get this fucking clown a ban or something? Pretty please?

  5. #145
    Quote Originally Posted by Wildberry View Post
    Free will? Look at Koltira.

    Lady Sylvanas Windrunner says: Arthas clearly failed when he created his death knights. You are still weak.
    Lady Sylvanas Windrunner says: Fortunately, I have agents that can help you... erase this weakness. Beneath the Undercity you go.
    Koltira Deathweaver yells: NO!
    Lady Sylvanas Windrunner says: Shh... quiet, death knight. When I'm finished with you, your fear will be gone.
    Lady Sylvanas Windrunner says: You can thank me later.

    Oh and the last line of Quest completion Dialogue
    "wouldn't plan on seeing Koltira anytime soon. Now that I have him... you can rest assured that any bonds he may have had with that Alliance scum will be thoroughly broken."

    The entirety of the WPL Questline shows why exactly Sylvanas is becoming so despicable.

    The Blight however has been forbidden since the Wrathgate, Sylvanas' continuation of it is bad enough.
    Koltira is a special case because he is a traitor after pledging to sylvanus (doesn't matter if it was for his friend) and sylvanuses method (and all forsaken methods) aren't stationary. You are getting your own personal views mixed up with forsaken cultural ones and that isn't a valid explanation.

  6. #146
    I am Murloc! Scummer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by announced View Post
    i find the alliance more evil. heres why. the forsaken previously owned the areas of Lorderon.. and now since they died they are no longer allowed on their own property. normally this would be ok in real life. some1 dies and their estate is willed over. however, in wow the forsaken can be res'd back.. therefore they should still be allowed to live there. so... when people try and take their homes back, thats messed up.
    There is an irony in the fact the Alliance are there to stop the Forsaken invading the home of one of their nations.

    I don't buy your argument of "The Alliance are evil for defending themselves against Forsaken aggression".

  7. #147
    Quote Originally Posted by Wildberry View Post
    Free will? Look at Koltira.

    Lady Sylvanas Windrunner says: Arthas clearly failed when he created his death knights. You are still weak.
    Lady Sylvanas Windrunner says: Fortunately, I have agents that can help you... erase this weakness. Beneath the Undercity you go.
    Koltira Deathweaver yells: NO!
    Lady Sylvanas Windrunner says: Shh... quiet, death knight. When I'm finished with you, your fear will be gone.
    Lady Sylvanas Windrunner says: You can thank me later.

    Oh and the last line of Quest completion Dialogue
    "wouldn't plan on seeing Koltira anytime soon. Now that I have him... you can rest assured that any bonds he may have had with that Alliance scum will be thoroughly broken."

    The entirety of the WPL Questline shows why exactly Sylvanas is becoming so despicable.

    The Blight however has been forbidden since the Wrathgate, Sylvanas' continuation of it is bad enough.
    Yes, the same tired old example of 1 man who committed treason and was punished. Nothing about the dialogue explicitly states she rewired his brain and removed free will. She could have just tortured him.

    Every other instance shows that Forsaken have free will. "Free will is one of the cornerstones of Forsaken culture." People are even free to leave the Forsaken without consequence. Plus all the people who left the Forsaken for other factions. Leaving the Forsaken is fine, helping the Alliance is not.
    Last edited by Aquamonkey; 2013-06-22 at 06:41 PM.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    I'm determined to someday make Med'an awesome. (MickyNeilson)

  8. #148
    The Lightbringer Wildberry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zito View Post
    Koltira is a special case because he is a traitor after pledging to sylvanus (doesn't matter if it was for his friend) and sylvanuses method (and all forsaken methods) aren't stationary. You are getting your own personal views mixed up with forsaken cultural ones and that isn't a valid explanation.
    You execute traitors, you don't strip them of emotions. You can plug your ears all you want and claim your "Hot Edgy Elf Zombie Chick" is in the right, but ever since Cataclysm we've seen that she's becoming more and more like what she vowed to destroy years back.
    Quote Originally Posted by ImportantLoreInformation View Post
    Seriously. Can this guy please be banned from the forums?
    Quote Originally Posted by JimPaladin View Post
    Could we just get this fucking clown a ban or something? Pretty please?

  9. #149
    Not wanting his people to be turned into undead, since they were kindof ravaged by it before, is pretty damned fair. Sylvanas is the ass for doing it against his will, and he is still the ruler of his people, which she's infringing upon, and her helping him in the pas does not validate her shamelessly using his people as she sees fit, and that includes the dead.

  10. #150
    Quote Originally Posted by Scummer View Post
    There is an irony in the fact the Alliance are there to stop the Forsaken invading the home of one of their nations.

    I don't buy your argument of "The Alliance are evil for defending themselves against Forsaken aggression".
    In the case of Gilneas, sort of. They were under orders/threat from Garrosh. It's not really Forsaken aggression since they are acting on behalf of the Horde. It's Horde aggression.

    For the Lordaeron areas:
    From the Forsaken PoV, they are defending their right to exist and their kingdom from human and Alliance invaders.
    From the Lordaeron survivors' PoV, they are defending/reclaiming their lands from rampant undead (Scourge and Forsaken are the same to them).
    From the Alliance PoV, they are reclaiming Lordaeron for the Alliance. They can differentiate between Scourge and Forsaken, but they want to wipe out the Forsaken just as much, it's just that the Horde makes it risky.
    Last edited by Aquamonkey; 2013-06-22 at 06:37 PM.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    I'm determined to someday make Med'an awesome. (MickyNeilson)

  11. #151
    Brewmaster Skayth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wildberry View Post
    You execute traitors, you don't strip them of emotions. You can plug your ears all you want and claim your "Hot Edgy Elf Zombie Chick" is in the right, but ever since Cataclysm we've seen that she's becoming more and more like what she vowed to destroy years back.
    That crazy undead elf chick is all that stands between alliance and their purging. Of course she has to be sinister and devious in order to keep her people alive. She cannot have one of her generals giving his friend, a chance to "win" thanks to emotions. That battle went on far to long and cost more deaths to the forsakened. I am for coexistance, but when alliance thinks its right to purge an entire race from the plane of existence I call that genocide. All that crazy undead chick has is to kill and kill in order for her people to survive. She even raises the dead of her enemies and give them a chance to live yet again, AND THEY DONT NEED to be apart of the forsakened. They can go right back to alliance (though they might purge them) or they can even join the ranks of the Argent Crusade. She gives her enemies another chance at life. She gives her allys another chance at life.

    The reason she doesnt just simply kill Koltira is because he is also apart of the Knights of the Ebon Blade, and they have an alliance with the Argent Crusade. Two peoples breathing down her neck. So what do you do when your general has bromance for the enemy? You cant execute him.You know he is a very powerful subordinate. You know you can bend his will... eventually. So you send him back to basic training. She doesnt have any sort of mind control, unless she uses her charm spell and then she simply has another infactuated fanboy, because they took the quest out where she raised dumber undead, so that is uncanon now.

  12. #152
    I am Murloc! Scummer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    For the other Lordaeron areas:
    From the Forsaken PoV, they are defending their right to exist and their kingdom from human and Alliance invaders.
    From the Lordaeron survivors' PoV, they are defending/reclaiming their lands from rampant undead (Scourge and Forsaken are the same to them).
    From the Alliance PoV, they are reclaiming Lordaeron for the Alliance. They can differentiate between Scourge and Forsaken, but they want to wipe out the Forsaken just as much, but the Horde makes it risky.
    The simple fact with Lordaeron is that both factions have people who lived there who want it back. Both with slam the other for their own reasons and then butt heads. Shame how people have a habit of disagreeing on it .
    In the end unless Calia Menethil decides to show her face both factions will claim it for themselves.

    I don't know where you're getting the idea that the Alliance wants to wipe them out though.

  13. #153
    Quote Originally Posted by Kathranis View Post
    Not quite slaves. They're given options, at least so far as we've seen. That may change after her death in Gilneas, but the only hint that she was compelling the risen to serve her and only her was a single bit of quest dialogue in WPL, which was removed before the quest went live.
    Yeah, that is probably the reason why the cdev states they just kill those who don't join.

  14. #154
    Quote Originally Posted by Argyn View Post
    They won't kill off Sylvanas that quickly. She'll become a villain in the end though, with the new forsaken, use of the plague and torture of Koltira they're setting her up that way. Just wait and see, next expansion we'll be introduced to a new character who'll eventually become her replacement. Or an existing character who she raises after death.

    We already have the new leader of the Forsaken jumping around...

    Lillian Voss anyone?

  15. #155
    Scarab Lord Arrashi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leonheart327 View Post
    We already have the new leader of the Forsaken jumping around...

    Lillian Voss anyone?
    Isnt she dead ? For like second time now ? Or should i go back to scholomance and introduce her to miss. armored feet ?

  16. #156
    Quote Originally Posted by Scummer View Post
    The simple fact with Lordaeron is that both factions have people who lived there who want it back. Both with slam the other for their own reasons and then butt heads. Shame how people have a habit of disagreeing on it .
    In the end unless Calia Menethil decides to show her face both factions will claim it for themselves.

    I don't know where you're getting the idea that the Alliance wants to wipe them out though.
    Sylvanas' short story has the Wrynn invading Undercity in the future where Sylvanas never returns from ICC. Even without Sylvanas' recent actions and the Forsaken army being destroyed during Garrosh's suicidal order at Gilneas, the Alliance wipes out the Forsaken.

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-22 at 12:15 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by delus View Post
    Yeah, that is probably the reason why the cdev states they just kill those who don't join.
    Except the game shows otherwise on multiple occasions.
    Last edited by Aquamonkey; 2013-06-22 at 07:19 PM.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    I'm determined to someday make Med'an awesome. (MickyNeilson)

  17. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darmalus View Post
    Horde needs a Do/Do Not Resurrect Me As A Forsaken thing on our dog tags.
    I think it would conveniently go missing. "DNR? There was no DNR on that corpse!"
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  18. #158
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    Except the game shows otherwise on multiple occasions.
    You mean the occasions previous to her getting shot in the face? Yeah... whatever dude.

  19. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leonheart327 View Post
    We already have the new leader of the Forsaken jumping around...

    Lillian Voss anyone?
    Shes a play on the Magic: The gathering Liliana Vess. I do wish she was a more important character, but through the Scarlet Monastery quests and Scholomance quests You see she has no allegiances, and that, like Vess, she is in it for herself. SM for far more powerful weapons. Scholo to destroy necromancy, yet she tells you to leave her, so she can run off into the shadows again. What they have her doing is not Forsaken, rather, she hates everyone and only in it for herself. Shes in it for vengence. But Lillian can become a central role if they really work the story in her favor, but as she is now, the way she is written, she cannot become the Queen of Undercity.

  20. #160
    Quote Originally Posted by delus View Post
    You mean the occasions previous to her getting shot in the face? Yeah... whatever dude.
    And what does Sylvanas dying and getting res'ed again have to do with anything?
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    I'm determined to someday make Med'an awesome. (MickyNeilson)

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