Difference between elements and Light/Shadow

[JFrombaugh]

I just wanna know something else about Divine Magic from a RP perspective.

Ragnaros and Neptulon are/were sworn enemies as well as servants of the Old Gods, and yet Shamans are able to call upon elementals from both of their domains. There are many elementals in lore that are obviously evil (just look at Mt. Hyjal dailies), and Fire magic would obviously be really painful to your enemies, as well as destructive in general.

Lore also confirms Arcane magic is corrupting and leads to a desire for power, yet many Mages ingame do manage to remain sane. In a way, Mages seem a lot like Shadow Priests to me in the sense that they strive to become powerful themselves rather than calling upon a deity such as the Light. Plus, many of them know Fire and Frost spells, yet no one seems to see that as "opposite" as the Light and the Shadow...

So what's the difference between this and the Light and Shadow? If skilled Shamans can wield all four elements without being consumed by any one, and Mages can wield both Fire and Frost, then why would it be impossible for a Priest to wield the Light and Shadow together? Do elements just not require a certain personality/state of mind for some reason?

[The Madgod]

The elemental spirits that the shaman summon don't appear to have any connection to the elementals and magi are more "sciency" with their magic.

But yes basically the difference is that those types of magic are not based upon one's personality, merely one's negotiating skills and humility and knowledge and technical skill, respectively, while the Light and the Shadow are completely polar opposites in what fuels their potency.

[JFrombaugh]

I thought Arcane Magic worked pretty much the same way as the "force" in Star Wars, as opposed to Divine Magic which requires gaining the favor of divine entities such as the Light or Elune, or in the case of Shamans, elementals. My own personal take was that in order to become a Fire or Frost Mage you needed to have a certain degree of mental affinity and attunement to fire or ice in order to properly manipulate it, based on the beliefs of Medivh and the fact that High Elves and Blood Elves are often Frost and Fire Mages respectively. Thus, as Frost spells are used defensively, Fire spells are powered by (and feed upon) one's passion.

Since Shamans, by contrast, directly commune with the elementals, while Mages simply draw from the planes using Arcane energies, I always assumed that Mages were pretty much the same thing as Shadow Priests, minus, of course, the strict requirement of being "selfish". So I guess I've misunderstood them all this time?

On a somewhat related note, there's been a lot of buzz about Jaina post Theramore, and I haven't done the Thunder Isle/Dalaran quests yet. Would you say Jaina's current personality in Mists strongly "fits" that of a priestess who exclusively uses Shadow magic?

[The Madgod]

No, not really. It's very much like science... technical skill in spellweaving and knowledge on how that functions and what to do are the primary skills one needs. It's inner power, as opposed to divine magic's outer power. Medivh pointed to this... and any preference of spell type noticed in a race doesn't really mean anything significant.

Yeah I'm fairly certain that shadow priests are still divine-based casters, which means they are in fact still pretty different from mages... but they're a very weird kettle of fish.

And Jaina does not really fit the personality of a shadow priest. She's still selfless and does what she does for the good of the citizens of the Alliance, not herself.

[Drithien]

Shadow magic in World of WarCraft is a bit slaughtered lore-wise. The existence of shadow priests is mostly due to the developers aim to have at least one damage dealing specialisation for priests. That coupled with their desire to have a sort of Witch Doctor class in the game, something that didn't mesh well with most of the races except of that of the trolls, gave us shadow priests. So there really isn't much of a rational explanation to be had as far as I can see, mostly excuses to cover-up for a twist that was chosen to be made for gameplay's sake. Shadow priests were meant to be witch doctors, but turned to something more generic, to mesh with the feel of more races than just trolls.

Now, as far as the Light part is concerned, there is nothing concrete. It is hinted that the Light is somehow conscious, for example it chooses who to instill itself into to create paladins in the Order of the Silver Hand. However blood elves managed to wrestle control of it from one of its physical vessels, M'uru. But then again, it turned out M'uru had allowed that to happen, to save the elves and re-ignite the Sunwell. Which may reinforce the theory rather than contradict it; and also explains why people such as the Scarlet Crusade can still wield it; perhaps it has a higher purpose, or just reckless writing. But it's all pretty vague. Which I like, since we don;t need explanations for everything in my opinion, and especially concepts that have something to do with deities. I like it when some mysteries remain secretive

[JFrombaugh]

No, not really. It's very much like science... technical skill in spellweaving and knowledge on how that functions and what to do are the primary skills one needs. It's inner power, as opposed to divine magic's outer power. Medivh pointed to this... and any preference of spell type noticed in a race doesn't really mean anything significant.

Yeah I'm fairly certain that shadow priests are still divine-based casters, which means they are in fact still pretty different from mages... but they're a very weird kettle of fish.

So a Mage's fire is more analogous to, say, a magician conjuring a fireball in his hands through use of a gimmick, than it is to Darth Vader using Force Choke?

Weird. I've been assuming all this time that Arcane Magic was just as psychological as Divine, just brought about through internal willpower rather than by forming a pact and becoming a faithful conduit.

In case you don't remember, I am the same person who asked if it would be okay for my own Priest to be specced into both Disc/Holy and Shadow in a lore sense. This whole misunderstanding was another reason why I thought it wouldn't be that big a stretch - I figured that it was no more contradictory than a Shaman calling on Fire or Water elementals as the situation arises. In my defense, I know there ARE other universes where fire and ice/water are treated as being just as polar as light and dark.

[The Madgod]

I did not remember that, though I do now.

Well... I wouldn't say it's like the force... but it's similar. What I meant when I said it's like science is that you're the one who has the knowledge of the spell and how to create it. It's not like a magician's trick, but it's also not like the force, which does have a sort of consciousness.

Basically magi create fire by focusing aspects of fire that one can find in their surroundings into a single point, calling it into being. At least that's what Medivh said. There's no real external force that you're a proxy for. It's still a deeply mental thing but there's a large difference between manipulating mana and creating a fireball and requesting that you be allowed to wield the Spirit of Fire's power and create a fireball. That's basically the difference between arcane and divine magic: that as an arcane caster you're the primary source of the knowledge and power of the spell (as far as casting it is concerned) while a divine caster's simply, as you put it, a conduit for another being's power.

Now, as far as the Light part is concerned, there is nothing concrete. It is hinted that the Light is somehow conscious, for example it chooses who to instill itself into to create paladins in the Order of the Silver Hand. However blood elves managed to wrestle control of it from one of its physical vessels, M'uru. But then again, it turned out M'uru had allowed that to happen, to save the elves and re-ignite the Sunwell. Which may reinforce the theory rather than contradict it; and also explains why people such as the Scarlet Crusade can still wield it; perhaps it has a higher purpose, or just reckless writing. But it's all pretty vague. Which I like, since we don;t need explanations for everything in my opinion, and especially concepts that have something to do with deities. I like it when some mysteries remain secretive

It's been pretty clear that it's not that the Light is directly conscious in the way you're saying... it certainly doesn't seem to have a motive, at the very least... but here's basically how it works: If you believe your cause is just and is selfless, you can wield the Light. If you lose faith in yourself, your cause, or the Light, or if you're growing more selfish, it becomes harder and harder to channel the Light. The Light is Lawful Neutral.

[jutsfortehlulz]

Elemental magic is more about manipulating the energy AROUND the wielder. In the air there's already what it takes to create a frost bolt, there's nothing you add, you just bend nature at your advantage to create and shape the object you desire, but that's all.

Light/Shadow is more about the INNER self of the wielder. You have to draw power from the inside, and the more faith and willpower you've got, the more powerful your "holy power" will be. And what's the "shadow power", if not the power to influence the inner self of you opponent? Mind blast, Mind control, Psychic Scream, all spells based on weakening your enemy's mind, instilling doubt, causing fear etc.

In case you don't remember, I am the same person who asked if it would be okay for my own Priest to be specced into both Disc/Holy and Shadow in a lore sense. This whole misunderstanding was another reason why I thought it wouldn't be that big a stretch - I figured that it was no more contradictory than a Shaman calling on Fire or Water elementals as the situation arises. In my defense, I know there ARE other universes where fire and ice/water are treated as being just as polar as light and dark.

Light and Shadows are just the two faces of the coin. If you've got faith, you've got both the power to help and heal the others, and to instill fear and dominate minds. When Disc/Holy specced, you not only actually do damage as Holy, but you even keep some key Shadow attacks and spells. It's not like one thing excludes the other, it's just about which use you want to make of your power.

[JFrombaugh]

Elemental magic is more about manipulating the energy AROUND the wielder. In the air there's already what it takes to create a frost bolt, there's nothing you add, you just bend nature at your advantage to create and shape the object you desire, but that's all.

This is why I asked, "Can I count my fire hands magician trick as a Fire spell?" Because it seems to me that's not much different to what Mages are doing.

That was kind of a joke, by the way.

But seriously, I assumed up until now that Mages did in fact have control over fire and/or ice in an "elemental" sense and going by what I interpreted Medivh's sayings about focusing them, I assumed he meant that in order to control, for instance, fire, without consorting with elementals as Shamans do, the Mage needs to channel it using passion, or anger, or whatever mental state is required for the given spell, in order to summon and use it effectively.

Light/Shadow is more about the INNER self of the wielder. You have to draw power from the inside, and the more faith and willpower you've got, the more powerful your "holy power" will be. And what's the "shadow power", if not the power to influence the inner self of you opponent? Mind blast, Mind control, Psychic Scream, all spells based on weakening your enemy's mind, instilling doubt, causing fear etc.

This is how the Force works, hence why I brought it up for comparison. However, unlike Divine Magic in WoW, your power does not come from the Force "agreeing" to do your bidding per se. But wielding it DOES require a certain personality and state of mind, more or less (passion and hatred for Dark Side, meditation for Light).

I have seen Shadow Priests compared to Sith Lords before...

[The Madgod]

Light and Shadows are just the two faces of the coin. If you've got faith, you've got both the power to help and heal the others, and to instill fear and dominate minds. When Disc/Holy specced, you not only actually do damage as Holy, but you even keep some key Shadow attacks and spells. It's not like one thing excludes the other, it's just about which use you want to make of your power.

A coin is an okay analogy, but it's not the entire picture. The more you wield shadow magic, the more you want to wield shadow magic. It's a corrupting force. As well, they are in fact exclusionary as they're powered by two opposing personalities. Shadow is the Light's polar opposite and if the Light is powered by selflessness then Shadow, by its nature, must be powered by selfishness. So really, the analogy is best demonstrated as a coin with one side for some reason being heavier than the other.

Only one side of that coin's going to be facing up once you flip it. If you do manage to get it on it side though, in balance, it takes an incredible feat to keep it balanced.

[jutsfortehlulz]

This is why I asked, "Can I count my fire hands magician trick as a Fire spell?" Because it seems to me that's not much different to what Mages are doing.

Haha well I suppose so, but on a serious note the answer would be no, since you can't create fire out of nothing (or to be more precise, out of atoms and particles around you).

I absolutely agree with your interpretation of Medivh's words. The Shamans have got a primal, instinctive bond with elements, and they basically "summon" them naturally. Mages instead definitely need to be into a precise mental state to cast a spell, let's say they need to be into a calm state of mind to cast Evocation (a spell indeed interrupted by damage/interferences, that requires the caster to stay still and focused), or to be angry to have enough power to cast a Fire Blast.
But, at the end of the day, all they do is manipulating particles, and focusing the energy around them. Even the Arcane Magic, that someone before described as a psychic force just like Holy Power, for me is just the ability to convey and focus energy.

This is how the Force works, hence why I brought it up for comparison. However, unlike Divine Magic in WoW, your power does not come from the Force "agreeing" to do your bidding per se.

I don't know if Divine Power actually "agrees" to do your bidding... In my opinion in the World of Warcraft there's no true evidence of the existence of "Divine Power" of some sort, and there couldn't be otherwise. I'm trying to explain my idea about it. You know, speaking of religion, if you actually NEED to see proofs to believe in something, than you don't have faith, so you can't be considered a true believer. The strength of a priest is indeed in his faith, in his determination to keep believing in something even if there won't be never proofs of any sort about it. This is what makes the difference between an atheist and a believer. So, in my opinion, every single spell a Priest or a Paladin has in his arsenal, come directly from his inner self, rather than from some Divine Power or whatever. "Holy Power" is just the manifestation of the caster's faith, of his inner will and strength, with no "intervention from above", like could happen, for example, with a Balance Druid, who just "calls down" the sun, the moon and the stars to converge their power into a spell.
A Moonkin is calling help from something that actually EXISTS (being it the moon or the nature around him), a Priest NEVER saw any manifestation or incarnation of this Divine Power, is all in his head and in his heart, and all about belief.

As well, they are in fact exclusionary as they're powered by two opposing personalities. Shadow is the Light's polar opposite and if the Light is powered by selflessness then Shadow, by its nature, must be powered by selfishness. So really, the analogy is best demonstrated as a coin with one side for some reason being heavier than the other.

I may agree with everything here, I just have a little perplexity. If Light is powered by selflessness, then why you can use it to hurt others? Let's say, Penance or any of the spells that heal your allies and damage your foes... isn't this a GREAT example of selfishness?
Plus... a Holy Priest can fully Mind Control an individual with no restrictions neither penalties, just like a Shadow one.

[JFrombaugh]

I may agree with everything here, I just have a little perplexity. If Light is powered by selflessness, then why you can use it to hurt others? Let's say, Penance or any of the spells that heal your allies and damage your foes... isn't this a GREAT example of selfishness?
Plus... a Holy Priest can fully Mind Control an individual with no restrictions neither penalties, just like a Shadow one.

One thing I have been meaning to ask regarding how "corrupting" Shadow really is...in Jade Forest Anduin Wrynn is seen using Psychic Scream (or something similar) on a pack of hozen to get away from them, and shortly afterward he mind controls the dwarf guy. Both of those spells are typically seen as Shadow, seeing as how they affect the mind.

So was Anduin wielding the Shadow when he did this? If yes, then I would think a lot of people are wrong in saying that the Shadow is just as evil/corrupting as the Dark Side of the Force. If no, then it must be that many of the Priest abilities the game classifies as "Shadow" are actually simply psychic attacks that do not draw upon either force, and which the Priest can use through their insight into the mind in general.

Of course, ideally, a Light-side Priest would not seek to win combat by killing their enemies. Rather, against mortal foes they probably would likely prefer to negotiate and if forced into a fight, would try to use their psychic powers to capture or force a surrender, as Auduin did. Against undead or demons, on the other hand, the Light is much more powerful lore-wise and that's where Disc priests show their true power.

EDIT:

The more you wield shadow magic, the more you want to wield shadow magic. It's a corrupting force.

According to WoWWiki, this happens with Arcane magic as well.

[The Madgod]

I may agree with everything here, I just have a little perplexity. If Light is powered by selflessness, then why you can use it to hurt others? Let's say, Penance or any of the spells that heal your allies and damage your foes... isn't this a GREAT example of selfishness?

They don't hurt these people out of a desire to benefit themselves. They do it for the benefit of the group or for a cause bigger than themselves.

Plus... a Holy Priest can fully Mind Control an individual with no restrictions neither penalties, just like a Shadow one.

Gameplay mechanics =/= lore mechanics. Holy and Disc priests have the ability to use other abilities because they're a hybrid and because people would complain that Shadow got the really good CC abilities while Holy and Disc don't.

One thing I have been meaning to ask regarding how "corrupting" Shadow really is...in Jade Forest Anduin Wrynn is seen using Psychic Scream (or something similar) on a pack of hozen to get away from them, and shortly afterward he mind controls the dwarf guy. Both of those spells are typically seen as Shadow, seeing as how they affect the mind.

Eh, he's a major lore character and very gifted by the Light. He's a bad example and probably one of the few who can manage to find that balance. Corruption doesn't happen immediately. It takes time. Doing one-offs won't be that serious for someone as talented and gifted by the light as Anduin.

[jutsfortehlulz]

then it must be that many of the Priest abilities the game classifies as "Shadow" are actually simply psychic attacks that do not draw upon either force, and which the Priest can use through their insight into the mind in general.

Actually, controlling and influencing another man's mind would be WAY worse, morally wise, than "simply" hurting him with a damaging spell (you know, you do that with Holy Power as well, so nothing special really). So for me spells like Psychic Scream or Mind Control are THE TRUE ESSENCE of Shadow, where this kind of force takes the most "evil" and depraved of its forms, hence, these spells should be the first ones to corrupt the wielder's mind, even faster than, let's say, a "simple" Mind Blast.

They don't hurt these people out of a desire to benefit themselves. They do it for the benefit of the group or for a cause bigger than themselves.

But then this puts the concept of "good" in a pretty relative state. Without counting that a Holy Priest damaging a Holy Priest from the opposite faction would be nonsense... you harm an individual who pursue and believe in your same principles? Your holy spells shouldn't even harm that guy, from a logical point of view.

Gameplay mechanics =/= lore mechanics. Holy and Disc priests have the ability to use other abilities because they're a hybrid and because people would complain that Shadow got the really good CC abilities while Holy and Disc don't.

I don't know... Blizzard could have given Holy Priests a light-based counterpart of those CC spells. To me it's more about knowledge and self awareness. To understand and use at your advantage Light, you HAVE to know Shadow as well. You cannot understand a face of the coin without a full understanding of the other one (you have to know evil extremely well to exorcise it). So for me it's just about choice. You choose to use Shadow to control other people mind, just like Anduin did (like JFrombaugh remembered), because you actually have a full knowledge of the "dark side", even if you're a "holy guy".

According to WoWWiki, this happens with Arcane magic as well.

Well, unlike Fire and Frost, Arcane isn't based on Elements already existing in nature, it's more about altering time and space and manipulating pure energy, so it's obviously a less "legitimate" form of magic, hence more corrupting.

[The Madgod]

But then this puts the concept of "good" in a pretty relative state. Without counting that a Holy Priest damaging a Holy Priest from the opposite faction would be nonsense... you harm an individual who pursue and believe in your same principles? Your holy spells shouldn't even harm that guy, from a logical point of view.

If the Scarlet Crusade can wield the Light then it's obvious that the concept of morality means nothing as far as casting with the Light is concerned.

I don't know... Blizzard could have given Holy Priests a light-based counterpart of those CC spells. To me it's more about knowledge and self awareness. To understand and use at your advantage Light, you HAVE to know Shadow as well. You cannot understand a face of the coin without a full understanding of the other one (you have to know evil extremely well to exorcise it). So for me it's just about choice. You choose to use Shadow to control other people mind, just like Anduin did (like JFrombaugh remembered), because you actually have a full knowledge of the "dark side", even if you're a "holy guy".

Well that's not how it's treated in lore. It's treated as taboo; verboten. The only thing taught about it in the Church of the Holy Light at the very least is "It's bad, don't use it."

It's not something you learn as a priest unless you go into some very dark circles to find this knowledge, knowing full well that it could result in your expulsion from the church.

Like... if you go to its wowpedia page, that fact and the whole spiel about corruption and the like are the only things from an official Blizzard source which has not been dubbed non-canon.

[Deleted]

Basically magi create fire by focusing aspects of fire that one can find in their surroundings into a single point, calling it into being.

Using arcane to cage it, according to Tides of War.

It seems that a mage either somehow transports pure elemental fire from the Firelands using arcane magic (unlikely, though I suspect casters such as Twin Empires troll elementalists did exactly that) or 'enslaves' the local aspect of Fire, caging a tiny bit of it and then controlling the 'cage' all the way to its target, whereupon the flames are released. Thrall notes that the Spirit is tormented during this ordeal.

You dirty dirty magi. We've got our eyes on you, me and my shammy mates. *Glares*

[Rathnor The Flesher]

Didn't Blizz make it that the magic of the light comes soley from the Naaru or something? At least it's not midichlorians...

[Mormolyce]

Shadow magic corrupts? Well that would be weird really. Shadow barely has any existence in the lore, it was mostly invented because Priests needed a DPS spec.

Lore also confirms Arcane magic is corrupting and leads to a desire for power, yet many Mages ingame do manage to remain sane.

Frankly the corruption of arcane magic is a problematic lore snarl now. Warcraft lore used to have only one kind of magic ("arcane") and they followed the traditional swords & sorcery trope of magic being a corruptive thing. Then Warcraft III rewrote a lot of the lore and now it's fel magic that's the real problem, the fact that arcane magic has a similar problem is just odd. And magic has now proliferated in the Warcraft universe to the point that you wonder how arcane magic can be corruptive if so many lore characters have no problem using it. And Azeroth isn't crawling with corrupt mages either. Warlocks, yes, mages not so much.

[Deleted]

Didn't Blizz make it that the magic of the light comes soley from the Naaru or something? At least it's not midichlorians...

No... the naaru are something like powerful Light elementals who can take control of the Light when it's wielded in their presence, but then again so could the Elemental Lords with their respective elements.

They're individuals representing the Light's physical form, not the Light's source.

[Lynneiah]

Aren't there, like, three or four different kinds of Shadow, too?