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  1. #1

    Kill Command vs Arcane shot

    Hi guys, with the recent changes in ptr, is worth it as bm to spam arcane shot only?

  2. #2
    Which one does more damage per focus?

  3. #3
    I thought I read that fully buffed (all raid buffs and target debuffs like sunder and 4% physical) Kill Command was still higher...but in a solo or small group environment arcane shot might be just as good now.

  4. #4
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    I think it's a safe bet Blizzard won't allow AS to replace KC in the priority lists.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Beace View Post
    I think it's a safe bet Blizzard won't allow AS to replace KC in the priority lists.
    Stranger things have happened!

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by clampy View Post
    Stranger things have happened!
    The last time AS was close to replacing KC damage, they buffed KC. I wouldn't object to another KC buff.. lol

  7. #7
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    I honestly don't understand where the 50% dmg/focus buff is coming from. It's not something hunters asked for far as I know, and it's gonna be a huge burst increase. I wouldn't be surprised to see it reverted.

  8. #8
    They should make Serpent Sting proc free Kill Commands

  9. #9
    Assuming 70k RAP, 7k Weapon dps and 50% mastery

    Kill Command: 70000 * .7 * 1.5 *1.5 + 698 = 110948 dmg (2773 dpf)
    5.2 Arcane Shot: (7000 + 70000 * .2) + 2306 = 23306 dmg (1165 dpf)
    5.3 Arcane Shot: (7000 + 70000 * .2) *1.1 + 2306 = 25406 dmg (1270 dpf)
    5.4 Arcane Shot: (7000 + 70000 * .2) *1.1*1.5 + 2306 = 36956 dmg (1232 dpf)

    No, it's not worth skipping Kill Command.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Beace View Post
    I honestly don't understand where the 50% dmg/focus buff is coming from.
    Well focus capping is starting to become a problem mainly with a haste build at the start of the fight under Bloodlust. I'd argue that it's not too big of a problem right now and it's only a minor annoyance under very specific conditions, but next tier we will probably gain a ton more haste compared to now and these things will become a bigger problem as we gear up.

    I've had first hand experience with Combat Rogues in Dragon Soul where after a while energy capping became an issue under effects like Adrenaline Rush. I think they are just trying to prevent situations like back then.
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  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Beace View Post
    I honestly don't understand where the 50% dmg/focus buff is coming from. It's not something hunters asked for far as I know, and it's gonna be a huge burst increase. I wouldn't be surprised to see it reverted.
    Thrill of the hunt is pretty much becoming obsolete (comparatively) because of focus capping. Makes it a lot easier to control focus when it costs 30 and also gives TotT a cost (10 focus) to help with capping during procs.

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-19 at 03:28 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by NoGoal View Post
    No, it's not worth skipping Kill Command.
    Regardless - the damage per focus is unchanged so there's no reason to believe the priority would change either.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by clampy View Post
    Regardless - the damage per focus is unchanged so there's no reason to believe the priority would change either.
    DPF isn't the only after, DPGCD is too.

    Simply put Blizzard will NEVER make Arcane Shot higher Priority then Kill Command. They will always hotfix it so make it work properly.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by NoGoal View Post
    Assuming 70k RAP, 7k Weapon dps and 50% mastery

    Kill Command: 70000 * .7 * 1.5 *1.5 + 698 = 110948 dmg (2773 dpf)
    5.2 Arcane Shot: (7000 + 70000 * .2) + 2306 = 23306 dmg (1165 dpf)
    5.3 Arcane Shot: (7000 + 70000 * .2) *1.1 + 2306 = 25406 dmg (1270 dpf)
    5.4 Arcane Shot: (7000 + 70000 * .2) *1.1*1.5 + 2306 = 36956 dmg (1232 dpf)

    No, it's not worth skipping Kill Command.
    You're clearly calculating something wrong here. My average arcane shot in 5.3 is about 60% of a Kill Command. I could understand the amount of mastery throwing it off a little bit, you're saying it should be a quarter? Actually, my raid buffed non-crit Arcane Shot now is higher than what you project for 5.4.

    Arcane Shot procs cobra strikes which effectively alters it's effective damage, and KC has a slightly higher Crit Chance since it is based off your pet.
    Last edited by Aertea; 2013-06-19 at 06:18 PM.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by NoGoal View Post
    Assuming 70k RAP, 7k Weapon dps and 50% mastery

    Kill Command: 70000 * .7 * 1.5 *1.5 + 698 = 110948 dmg (2773 dpf)
    5.2 Arcane Shot: (7000 + 70000 * .2) + 2306 = 23306 dmg (1165 dpf)
    5.3 Arcane Shot: (7000 + 70000 * .2) *1.1 + 2306 = 25406 dmg (1270 dpf)
    5.4 Arcane Shot: (7000 + 70000 * .2) *1.1*1.5 + 2306 = 36956 dmg (1232 dpf)

    No, it's not worth skipping Kill Command.
    Isn't this the correct formula for 5.4 arcane shot?

    Using your example of a 7k dps weapon, assuming 3.0 speed, that's 21000 average weapon damage. Using your 70k attack power that's 70000/14 * 2.8 (normalized speed) = 14000 damage from attack power.

    21000 + 14000 * 1.5 + 2306 = 60287 damage / 30 focus = 2009 dpf.

    Your kill command seems about right but let's not forget boss armor reduction. 32% after sunder armor. Let's say that puts kill command to roughly 75.5k. That would make it 1887 dpf, less than arcane shot. Let's also take into account physical (4%) and magical (5%) vulnerability. That gives arcane shot a 1% boost.

    I'm not an expert on WoW math but I think that's generally close. Someone correct me if wrong.

    So yes, Arcane Shot is going to be very close. Of course during bestial wrath it will be 20% higher making it a no brainer. Pets also have a higher crit chance. But outside of full raid buffs (and when BW is not active) you can probably just mash on arcane shot for the same damage (but more GCD so there's another potential factor).

    TLDR: Kill command still higher in raid setting, though not by very much at all. Outside of fully raid buffed (when bestial wrath is not up) it's basically a wash.
    Last edited by bendak; 2013-06-19 at 10:39 PM.

  15. #15
    Using Bendak's numbers it would be 60287 actually. You weren't including the 10% hotfix buff (I believe it was confirmed AS on the ptr is 165%).

  16. #16
    I'm going to use numbers from my logs without BW.

    Kill Command ~90k hits, ~180k crits
    Arcane Shot ~50k hits, ~100k crits

    Now applying the 50% buff to arcane shot, that puts it at 75k hits and 150k crits. Arcane shot still uses the same DPF, so I don't see a reason to compare the two if kill command was better even with the inferior DPF. I predict we will still use kill command. Even though it might not be big of a gain as it used to be.

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  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Aertea View Post
    Using Bendak's numbers it would be 60287 actually. You weren't including the 10% hotfix buff (I believe it was confirmed AS on the ptr is 165%).
    Correct, ptr lists it at 165%.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by bendak View Post
    Isn't this the correct formula for 5.4 arcane shot?
    You are right, I forgot the 3s speed of the weapon and armor (32.09% after sunder).

    5.4 AS is 165% weapon dmg as far as I know so it should actually pull ahead dpf wise (outside of BW).


    Quote Originally Posted by Tehstool View Post
    Arcane shot still uses the same DPF, so I don't see a reason to compare the two if kill command was better even with the inferior DPF.
    Except when you count GCD. Even if both had the exact same DPF, a 20 focus AS take 2gcd for 1 KC. Now with 5.4 change, it's 3 AS for 2 KC.
    Last edited by Nogz; 2013-06-19 at 09:17 PM.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by NoGoal View Post
    You are right, I forgot the 3s speed of the weapon and armor (32.09% after sunder).

    5.4 AS is 165% weapon dmg as far as I know so it should actually pull ahead dpf wise (outside of BW).


    Except when you count GCD. Even if both had the exact same DPF, a 20 focus AS take 2gcd for 1 KC. Now with 5.4 change, it's 3 AS for 2 KC.
    the diference isnt that large, idk why you adding a 50% mastery there. right now no one is stacking mastery and 100% sure no one is getting close to 50% mastery there.

    try something aroung 30% and your numbers will show that AS is really close. GCD wise you are right, cant fit that many gcds in order to make it worthwhile but the difrence in dps will be min.

    right now without buffs not using KC ever is a 2.3% dps loss for me in FD. full raid Buffed is around 5-7% less dps.

    dosnt make any sense at all. the gap should be way higher than just 5% less damage for someone that just get to spam AS. also take into account that you could even spec TOTH and even ignore cobras as well since AS is way more damage than CS and it will allow you to gain more GCDs.

    Edit: im ilvl 536 and i have 7389 mastery wich equals to 40% mastery, not in BIS wich will reduce way more that, it was fully buffed since you only gain around 10% with mastery buff.
    Last edited by Perrito; 2013-06-19 at 10:25 PM.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by NoGoal View Post
    Except when you count GCD. Even if both had the exact same DPF, a 20 focus AS take 2gcd for 1 KC. Now with 5.4 change, it's 3 AS for 2 KC.
    I think you missed my point. I was saying comparing the DPF isn't going to give us the answer. We need look at it more in depth.

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