[Spoilers] This the raid I've been waiting for.

[Kalcheus]

Just wait! By 7.0 we'll be having 80 boss raids, with every boss riding a dragon and having the Lich King as part of the encounter.

And Saurfang will be awarded as a mount!

[Kelimbror]

*snip*

But that's the thing. She didn't get 'built up' because her character didn't do anything or change in any way. It's not simply being in your face, but having something compelling happen in the first place.

I could care less if Jaina was standing around in every instance we do, it's not going to make me know anything about her other than...oh hey, Jaina's standing here again. That's the equivalent of how she's been portrayed in WoW. Oh look, here she is making blizzards in Hyjal, oh here she is crying about something...idk...and now she's doing stuff with ice.

Then MoP hits. Oh, here's an actual storyline where she grows as a character, has direct impact on the story because of her character, and generally is important. It's really as simple as comparing how they are developing Wrathion to how she has been 'developed'. The TL,DR of our whole debate is that they need to develop more characters like Wrathion and how pretty much everyone has been used in this expansion.

It honestly feels like they replaced their whole writing team or they went back to get their MFA in Short Stories. (in a good way)

Your suggestion about her death and Sylvanas is fine, as it is just a continuation of her story. But regardless of how it has been used in WoW, real death is a permanent end to a character arc. I'm talking about waiting until just now to give a treasured character from long ago some screen time, only to kill them. It would make her feel like token horror movie chick. Oh look, here she is doing something stupid...here's her small epiphany where you realize she could be a real character...here she is getting stabbed in the throat. Yaaay wasted screen time.

You clearly put more stock in the significance of ending potential before it happens, but even in ASoIaF uses a detailed amount of time developing a character before their shocking end. That's what makes it have weight. Arbitrary death as weight happens doesn't make you care as much as it is the literary equivalent of a jump scare. It's just cheesy. (opinions)

[Sesto]

Blizzard has done an amazing job. The bosses this raid are going to be amazing. Golden Lotus and the Klaxxi Paragons. Zaela (might be fighting with her, not sure yet) and her drake. Malkorok, who was built up in the books. Nazgrim, who we have fought beside for 3 expansions now. And of course, what you mentioned, all the NPCs are going to show up.

Much better than the usual random NPCs we fight. Obviously there still is some in this raid, but it is amazing to fight people we have seen before. The Klaxxi is undeniable my favourite part of MoP, and I'm glad they get a proper send off instead of just rotting in Dread Wastes while we go to level 90+ land.

[furriusmurrius]

You clearly put more stock in the significance of ending potential before it happens

I don't. (?) I don't think I do. I've been enjoying our discussion and hope it doesn't evolve into you making assumptions about me and vice versa; I simply think Jaina has had plenty of story behind her over the years, whether or not any of it has been giant cinematic masterpieces with her in the center of them.

I'm also saying theres a fine line between "The Thrall Show" and "Who was that bitch that just died again?" and Jaina's story arc, in my opinion, walks it very elegantly. There hasn't been big moments with her and there hasn't been too few.

I also see Jaina in a very similar way that many Horde players see Nazgrim - yes Nazgrim has been more instrumental in thier questing experience for the last 3 xpacs, and you get to see him rise from grunt to General. But Jaina wasn't always a white haired Horde-hater either, in the infancy of her character she was one of the few humans that appreciated the orcs, daresay even had 'moments' with green Jesus himself. I think her potential has been realized and if Blizzard doesn't kill her soon she risks going into that 'The Thrall Show' level of character oversaturation where people will eventually just go "Ok so I guess Jaina is either going to die at the end of this Xpac or become the new High Queen of the Alliance."

And I guess full circle that brings me back to your statement that I put more stock in the significance of ending potential before it happens and I guess that's always the case; every character that dies in any story, be it Yoda dying a perfectly natural death due to old age or Obi-Wan being cut down in his prime (for a Jedi, anyway) leaves the viewer wondering "What if they hadn't died?" There's ALWAYS potential for a dead character, that in itself is why dealing with a characters death is such an experience in the first place.

[Kelimbror]

And I guess full circle that brings me back to your statement that I put more stock in the significance of ending potential before it happens and I guess that's always the case; every character that dies in any story, be it Yoda dying a perfectly natural death due to old age or Obi-Wan being cut down in his prime (for a Jedi, anyway) leaves the viewer wondering "What if they hadn't died?" There's ALWAYS potential for a dead character, that in itself is why dealing with a characters death is such an experience in the first place.

This is really all I meant. I wasn't making an assumption about you, merely stating our differences in what we like. Not judging you for yours, but saying we clearly see it differently. As evidinced by your last statements, we philosophically disagree with regards to characters. Nothing wrong with it, but we won't find common ground.

As eloquently as we're communicating, it could be a caveman argument of, "Jaina no story, Jaina no die" and "Jaina story, Jaina die".