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  1. #41
    Come on this is not supposed to even be an argument, i fail to see a fight this tier where per example melee dont have 100% uptime on bosses. This entire "tax" is pure nonsence.

  2. #42
    there is hardly any dps spec in the game anymore that gets penalized by moving. have you people been playing another game than me, or why does everybody think that dps on the move is something only hunters have? on top of that, some specs that actually do suck while moving, such as (rune of power) arcane mage, have such ridiculous dps that it doesn't even matter when they do 0 dps during movement phases - they still win in the end.

    additionally, even if cobra shots required you to stand still, it'd hardly make any dps difference whatsoever.

    i'm sad to say that the wotlk survival model with mana, .5 sec auto shot cast time, no aspect of the fox and manual serpent sting refreshing was way more fun than cata/mop ... jumping around and not giving a shit about auto shots or anything really while doing bad dps, great. glad you guys like it.

  3. #43
    I personally love the way we play. More DPS would be nice in standstill, but I like being able to move and fire; I'd be okay with a flat % damage decrease while moving (or increase while standing still, take your pick) but if you take away my ability to Cobra, Aimed, or Barrage while moving, I'll cry.

    Nenia

  4. #44
    In a heartbeat. You really dont need to move that much anyway and with the mobility, you are underpowered during times when you could be standing still and just the same while you are moving. When other classes move, they just do slightly less than the OP damage they normally do.

  5. #45
    I wouldn't give up the movement, but that doesn't change the fact that we still need to be buffed. There should be no trading of movement for damage, we need to just do more damage so we can be competitive.

  6. #46
    High Overlord
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    No, I have a Mage for that. Mobility is part of being a hunter, and I enjoy he way it plays. Anyway, any OP class is pretty much guaranteed a nerfbat to the head in succeeding expansions.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by gulder View Post
    You say 'rewarded for standing still' but that just translates into 'punished for moving' because you don't move unless you need to.

    I didn't like sniper training. I don't think that mobility is a good enough excuse to nerf our dps though, given that said dps is all we bring to a raid. We have no utility.
    But if you move in-between refreshes you don't lose anything. Sniper training was 7(?) seconds which is long enough to move out of what you need to and stop again. It only took a few seconds to refresh/reapply the buff.

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  8. #48
    Why exactly do we need to make a tradeoff when classes like Warlocks are allowed to have mobility and still allowed to crush the meters?

    It's a glaring design double standard between us and Warlocks.

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Amorise View Post
    Why exactly do we need to make a tradeoff when classes like Warlocks are allowed to have mobility and still allowed to crush the meters?

    It's a glaring design double standard between us and Warlocks.
    Haven't you looked at the current PTR changes?

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  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by clampy View Post
    Haven't you looked at the current PTR changes?
    they can still cast their fillers on the move, but their damage and utility crushes us.

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by clampy View Post
    Haven't you looked at the current PTR changes?
    They can still use their filler spells while mobile (the most important thing) and still bring more raid utility and substantially higher DPS.

  12. #52
    The Lightbringer thunderdragon2's Avatar
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    no i wouldnt for 1 simple reason theres no such thing as a patchwerk style boss anymore by that i mean just sit and nuke the crap out of the boss form start to finish. every fight implemented atm requires some movement, movement inst the problem with the hunter class, sadly pvp is

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by thunderdragon2 View Post
    no i wouldnt for 1 simple reason theres no such thing as a patchwerk style boss anymore by that i mean just sit and nuke the crap out of the boss form start to finish. every fight implemented atm requires some movement, movement inst the problem with the hunter class, sadly pvp is
    Maybe I shouldn't have used "Patchwerk" in my title or anywhere in the post itself, because I did not mean a full Patchwerk encounter, but rather the periods of every fight where you can stand still and nuke.

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Danshot View Post
    they can still cast their fillers on the move, but their damage and utility crushes us.
    fillers and what else is left?

    is a pvp nerf not a pve nerf for them, anything else they have can be cast on the move because is all instant cast anyway.

  15. #55
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    It feels like I can do way more DPS standing still than when I have to pay attention to other things like movement, target switching, etc. There's no amount of buffing or fixing Blizzard can do to fix my brain. I'm simply better at my rotation when I'm not doing other things. Maybe it's my keybinds.

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Kibu View Post
    Come on this is not supposed to even be an argument, i fail to see a fight this tier where per example melee dont have 100% uptime on bosses. This entire "tax" is pure nonsence.
    Jin rokh heroic, you don't stack next to the boss. Or at least most groups opt out of doing it in favor of better survivability, losing uptime. also, ranged can maneuver themselves to the pool quicker whereas melee have to stay on the boss and the tanks get in position

    Horridon, Moving between adds is lost uptime, constant aoe under adds prevents uptime

    Council, Moving between bosses and/or keeping up with the guy who rolls is lost uptime

    Tortos, melee have less uptime if they're assigned on shells(which is necessary if you're progressing and have more than 1/2 melee)

    Megaera isn't too bad due to the boss temporarily disappearing between phases, Adds on heroic can be lost uptime if a melee has to help with them.

    ji-kun, slime can make positional requirements taxing on melee, mainly on heroic. Ranged have less travel time between the boss and nests

    Durumu, Slight uptime loss during light phase, Haven't done heroic but i hear there's more adds? Will create more uptime problems.

    Primordius, dpsing slimes and switching between the slimes and the boss to smoothen buff transitions is easier for ranged, can create downtime for melee.

    Dark animus, Haven't done heroic but more ranged can greatly speed up the first phase, once a melee drops their anima to 20% or so, they can't do anything but wait for the tank to get himself sorted. ranged can assist on other golems.

    Iron Qon, first phase stacking, and all the elemental spear lines cause a great deal of positional requirements, Because our group is unfortunately melee heavy, as a ret paladin i have one of our druids give me symbiosis for wrath, because i almost always get cut off from my stacking group in the first phase due to fire lines, and i'd rather not put extra weight on the healers nor do i want to burn my bubble. Ranged can maneuver between them without losing uptime

    Twin consorts, I can't really think of any off the top of my head, When does her fire charge thing, melee lose some uptime otherwise i don't think its that bad.

    Lei-Shen, Also doesn't seem that bad, certain things cause problems though, like having an overcharge mid ranged, You can't outrange it while still being in range of the boss and getting under it will likely reduce boss uptime. last phase with the wind and thunderstruck and various other things can create problems for melee when they're at the same time.


    It's all little things, true. But as it stands currently it's kind of a one way street, We don't get anything to outweigh the problems we have as melee, I see a lot of groups only taking one melee or whatever they need for buffs because it's easier
    Last edited by thek3mp; 2013-06-22 at 03:36 AM. Reason: A line break

  17. #57
    Herald of the Titans SL1200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thek3mp View Post
    Jin rokh heroic, you don't stack next to the boss. Or at least most groups opt out of doing it in favor of better survivability, losing uptime. also, ranged can maneuver themselves to the pool quicker whereas melee have to stay on the boss and the tanks get in position

    Horridon, Moving between adds is lost uptime, constant aoe under adds prevents uptime

    Council, Moving between bosses and/or keeping up with the guy who rolls is lost uptime

    Tortos, melee have less uptime if they're assigned on shells(which is necessary if you're progressing and have more than 1/2 melee)

    Megaera isn't too bad due to the boss temporarily disappearing between phases, Adds on heroic can be lost uptime if a melee has to help with them.

    ji-kun, slime can make positional requirements taxing on melee, mainly on heroic. Ranged have less travel time between the boss and nests

    Durumu, Slight uptime loss during light phase, Haven't done heroic but i hear there's more adds? Will create more uptime problems.

    Primordius, dpsing slimes and switching between the slimes and the boss to smoothen buff transitions is easier for ranged, can create downtime for melee.

    Dark animus, Haven't done heroic but more ranged can greatly speed up the first phase, once a melee drops their anima to 20% or so, they can't do anything but wait for the tank to get himself sorted. ranged can assist on other golems.

    Iron Qon, first phase stacking, and all the elemental spear lines cause a great deal of positional requirements, Because our group is unfortunately melee heavy, as a ret paladin i have one of our druids give me symbiosis for wrath, because i almost always get cut off from my stacking group in the first phase due to fire lines, and i'd rather not put extra weight on the healers nor do i want to burn my bubble. Ranged can maneuver between them without losing uptime

    Twin consorts, I can't really think of any off the top of my head, When does her fire charge thing, melee lose some uptime otherwise i don't think its that bad.

    Lei-Shen, Also doesn't seem that bad, certain things cause problems though, like having an overcharge mid ranged, You can't outrange it while still being in range of the boss and getting under it will likely reduce boss uptime. last phase with the wind and thunderstruck and various other things can create problems for melee when they're at the same time.


    It's all little things, true. But as it stands currently it's kind of a one way street, We don't get anything to outweigh the problems we have as melee, I see a lot of groups only taking one melee or whatever they need for buffs because it's easier
    In my raid the melee always gets told just to stay on the boss, so i'm not sure what your point is.

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by thek3mp View Post
    Jin rokh heroic, you don't stack next to the boss. Or at least most groups opt out of doing it in favor of better survivability, losing uptime. also, ranged can maneuver themselves to the pool quicker whereas melee have to stay on the boss and the tanks get in position
    What? Of course you stack on the boss. Just watch your Ionization timer and run out in time. Done right, our melee max range to be out and still dpsing. As for moving into pools, while Tank 1 is flying through the air, Tank 2 should be moving the boss towards the new pool. Both melee and ranged should be hitting the boss during this movement.

    Horridon, Moving between adds is lost uptime, constant aoe under adds prevents uptime
    Moving between...? Have a tank out there gathering everything up, enjoy cleaving it down. Move if crap is under your feet. Unless you're using cast time abilities (only one I can think of for melee is warrior Slam, if that's even still a thing), downtime shouldn't be worth mentioning. Heck, unless I'm very much mistaken, you don't even deal with Direhorn Spirit adds until all ranged have them.

    Council, Moving between bosses and/or keeping up with the guy who rolls is lost uptime
    Save Kazra for last when the entire raid can stack, which more or less stops his rolls. Otherwise, start with stacking sand and frost, cleave away. Move to priest quickly, cleave her and Twisted Spirit. If there's significant uptime loss, your tanks may be poorly positioning.

    Tortos, melee have less uptime if they're assigned on shells(which is necessary if you're progressing and have more than 1/2 melee)
    Melee just tunnel vision the boss here on one of the feet, cleaving if turtles or bats get near. Only way I can see having melee kick shells is in 10 man if you somehow have no ranged (dead or something else).

    Megaera isn't too bad due to the boss temporarily disappearing between phases, Adds on heroic can be lost uptime if a melee has to help with them.
    Stay on the head until it dies, while a designated temp tank (ie, monk in tank stance, cat in bear form, etc) gathers adds in the meantime. AoE down the adds as you stack up for Rampage.

    ji-kun, slime can make positional requirements taxing on melee, mainly on heroic. Ranged have less travel time between the boss and nests
    Fliers are supposed to catch slime midair for buffs.

    Durumu, Slight uptime loss during light phase, Haven't done heroic but i hear there's more adds? Will create more uptime problems.
    Ranged lose time due to target swaps onto adds. Other than that, melee can run in max melee range and hit Dur while adds aren't exposed. The extras in heroic can easily be cleaved as they attach to players.

    Primordius, dpsing slimes and switching between the slimes and the boss to smoothen buff transitions is easier for ranged, can create downtime for melee.
    Multidotters should be constantly killing slimes so there's a supply of red pools for melee to dart out and retransform.

    Dark animus, Haven't done heroic but more ranged can greatly speed up the first phase, once a melee drops their anima to 20% or so, they can't do anything but wait for the tank to get himself sorted. ranged can assist on other golems.
    Heroic Animus is like dominoes, and you can't topple yours early. Ranged can assist, sure, but can't overdo it or risk ripping threat. Melee adds die first into the Massives, and melee proceeds to stab boss in the arse for the majority of the fight. The only movement then is sidestepping Fonts.

    Iron Qon, first phase stacking, and all the elemental spear lines cause a great deal of positional requirements, Because our group is unfortunately melee heavy, as a ret paladin i have one of our druids give me symbiosis for wrath, because i almost always get cut off from my stacking group in the first phase due to fire lines, and i'd rather not put extra weight on the healers nor do i want to burn my bubble. Ranged can maneuver between them without losing uptime
    Frankly, this sounds like a personal issue. Stacking melee allows soaking Unleashed Flame while ranged serve as spear targets.

    Twin consorts, I can't really think of any off the top of my head, When does her fire charge thing, melee lose some uptime otherwise i don't think its that bad.
    Her charge can be dealt with somewhat via raid positioning, but don't feel too bad, it often takes her beyond max range for us as well.

    Lei-Shen, Also doesn't seem that bad, certain things cause problems though, like having an overcharge mid ranged, You can't outrange it while still being in range of the boss and getting under it will likely reduce boss uptime. last phase with the wind and thunderstruck and various other things can create problems for melee when they're at the same time.
    Not sure what you mean on overcharge. Melee simply stack if it's on them, and if they're being hit by one from range, tell them to get to max range.

    Wind is annoying period, but being able to shove us is the big new mechanic this expansion, so they have to play with it.


    It's all little things, true. But as it stands currently it's kind of a one way street, We don't get anything to outweigh the problems we have as melee, I see a lot of groups only taking one melee or whatever they need for buffs because it's easier
    I'm assuming you mean 10 man with this, but there's a lot of things that can be done to make melee's job easier.

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-22 at 12:02 AM ----------

    More on topic, the only thing that prevented us from 100% mobility was Steady/Cobra (Aimed if MM). Speaking PVE perspective, you previously simply pooled focus in anticipation of moving and fired instants on the run. Granted, Cata's 9 focus per Steady was too little, but careful management was possible. The main argument in favor of Steady on the move though was that focus starvation was possible and being prevented from regenerating our resource was to punishing in both PVE and PVP.

    With MoP's increased focus per Steady, I'd argue no fight has had enough extended running to make Steady on the move strictly needed (especially since real kiting has gone the way of the dodo), if only because it would be far too punishing on casters with cast-time main nukes. That said, I'd also like to see Sniper Training return, as it would reward intelligent movement which was one of the hallmarks of a good hunter throughout BC and Ulduar.

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Amorise View Post
    They can still use their filler spells while mobile (the most important thing) and still bring more raid utility and substantially higher DPS.
    A pretty contradictory statement imo. Isn't that a trade off that hunters don't have? Not being able to cast everything while mobile.

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  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by clampy View Post
    A pretty contradictory statement imo. Isn't that a trade off that hunters don't have? Not being able to cast everything while mobile.
    They still do more damage + have raid utility.
    Even on movement heavy fights.

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