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  1. #1

    Could Riposte make Druids the weakest tanks in 5.4?

    http://ptr.wowdb.com/spells/145672-riposte#17056-17093

    Both Warriors and DK could (it is still PTR) get a new passive to boost their DPS in 5.4. This would boost their Critical Strike by 50% of the sum of their Dodge + Parry ratings for 20 seconds. Since it lasts 20 seconds, it would, for all intents and purposes, have 100% uptime after the first dodge or parry. I have no problem with the change, since any reason they can give people to play tanks again is a good one, but I'm just wondering where it leaves Druids. We will still have the highest armor ratings and health pools, but also the weakest defensive cooldowns, so-so utility and possibly, in 5.4, the lowest DPS.

  2. #2
    *sigh* yea possibly
    Last edited by Kojo; 2013-06-20 at 10:57 PM.

  3. #3
    DK's have to completely gem away from survivability to get any dps benefit. They are between the other tanks, simply cause their damage stems off of weapon damage, where as pally and monks don't they use attack power. Not sure where druids are at on this, but druids definitely could use some help.

  4. #4
    I am Murloc! Alenarien's Avatar
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    Given that Druids depend heavily on Agility for tanking, I imagine that their crit is already high?
    "Can your blood atone for genocide, orc? Your Horde killed countless innocents with its rampage across Stormwind and Lordaeron. Do you really think you can just sweep all that away and cast aside your guilt so easily? No, your kind will never change, and I will never stop fighting you." - Grand Admiral Proudmoore

  5. #5
    Druids tanks crit is usually very high already, especially if they're going for a rage build, crit is usually their best stat. So 20% crit for a bear would be a little silly. Who knows they could add a similar thing in for all tanks but make it give haste instead. Still very early in PTR.

  6. #6
    This change is because monks, druids, and pallies all stack haste or crit in order to increase their survival. However these also increase their dps.

    Dks and warriors stack mastery which has no benefit. Personally I dont think it makes sense to tie dks and warrior to their lower miigation stat but its at least some compensation.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Alenarien View Post
    Given that Druids depend heavily on Agility for tanking, I imagine that their crit is already high?
    Druids haven't relied on agi at all this expansion. Using an RPS build though a druid would gem crit > haste so our static crit is very high. I sit around 59% crit unbuffed and with a RoR proc I hit 117%.


    @ OP - Its too early into the PTR to be screaming the sky is falling. If anything this spell may help 10mans that could use a lil extra DPS from their tanks. There are many other factors that can help you edge out your co-tanks in terms of DPS.

    Druids have NV every 90 secs + Berzerk & Incarnation or the alternative of HotW for massive dps gains.
    Last edited by Kioga; 2013-06-21 at 12:00 AM.

  8. #8
    At least in a 25man environment, warriors really weren't that bad off in terms of DPS output. To put it nicely, my warrior counter-part could push similar number prior to legendary meta gems in similar gear... my DK tanking counter-part not so much. However, if Primordius is any indication, whenever my warrior co-tank got several stacks of crit buff, his damage output was massive (silly crits with Shield Slam to which Mangle could never compare). Overall, I think it's a good thing for warriors/DKs to get some DPS benefit from their tanking stats, especially DKs. I do think, however, that it could push Guardian tank DPS towards the bottom of the tanking pack unless adjustments are made.

    Again, I'm speaking from a 25man perspective. In lower Vengeance scenarios, such as 10man, Riposte is likely needed for warriors/DKs to be competitive.
    *Since I'm tired of reposting the link:* EH vs TTL and Hybrid Tax

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Tarazet View Post
    http://ptr.wowdb.com/spells/145672-riposte#17056-17093

    Both Warriors and DK could (it is still PTR) get a new passive to boost their DPS in 5.4. This would boost their Critical Strike by 50% of the sum of their Dodge + Parry ratings for 20 seconds. Since it lasts 20 seconds, it would, for all intents and purposes, have 100% uptime after the first dodge or parry. I have no problem with the change, since any reason they can give people to play tanks again is a good one, but I'm just wondering where it leaves Druids. We will still have the highest armor ratings and health pools, but also the weakest defensive cooldowns, so-so utility and possibly, in 5.4, the lowest DPS.
    The crit scales off ratings as opposed to your % of dodge and parry. As a DK I'am looking at a 2% crit buff which won't be noticeable.

  10. #10
    I think you're severely overstating exactly how much Crit Rating (the key word here is rating) will be gained.

    You still have to divide that by 600 for actual Crit %. It's not as big as you think it is.

  11. #11
    Pretty sure its rating aswell but i looked it just says critical strike and tbh it would be alot better. No matter what i dont believe that this will change anything in the ranking order right now. Warriors and DK favour hit and expertise than mastery, i doubt any tank will go for more parry or dodge to gain a very small dps inrease.

    And lets not forget they nerfed dmg on palas too, plus druids gain alot with 5.4 meleehit crit cap, armor cap, I really dont think this minor dps buff to warriors and DKs will change anything, i cant believe anyone will change their tank setup cause DKs and Warriors do the same dmg as the other three tankign classes. Even if they pull ahead i dont believe this change will put them so far ahead that druids high damage output would look bad.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Viromand View Post
    Pretty sure its rating aswell but i looked it just says critical strike and tbh it would be alot better. No matter what i dont believe that this will change anything in the ranking order right now. Warriors and DK favour hit and expertise than mastery, i doubt any tank will go for more parry or dodge to gain a very small dps inrease.
    That's probably because nothing says rating anymore.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Tarazet View Post
    http://ptr.wowdb.com/spells/145672-riposte#17056-17093

    Both Warriors and DK could (it is still PTR) get a new passive to boost their DPS in 5.4. This would boost their Critical Strike by 50% of the sum of their Dodge + Parry ratings for 20 seconds. Since it lasts 20 seconds, it would, for all intents and purposes, have 100% uptime after the first dodge or parry. I have no problem with the change, since any reason they can give people to play tanks again is a good one, but I'm just wondering where it leaves Druids. We will still have the highest armor ratings and health pools, but also the weakest defensive cooldowns, so-so utility and possibly, in 5.4, the lowest DPS.
    While I understand your worry, allow me to be your death knight angel. Currently it scales off of parry/dodge RATING not the flat percent vaule, and I don't think any DK worth his salt stacks parry/dodge anymore. On my mastery > hit/exp 520ilvl blood this winds up being some...3 maybe 4% crit buff tops. Any buff is nice, but don't worry its not enough to throw anything out of balance.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Museigen View Post
    While I understand your worry, allow me to be your death knight angel. Currently it scales off of parry/dodge RATING not the flat percent vaule, and I don't think any DK worth his salt stacks parry/dodge anymore. On my mastery > hit/exp 520ilvl blood this winds up being some...3 maybe 4% crit buff tops. Any buff is nice, but don't worry its not enough to throw anything out of balance.
    Don't underestimate players' capacity to adapt. More DPS = shorter fights = less damage taken, so min-maxers might see this in a different way than you do.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Tarazet View Post
    Don't underestimate players' capacity to adapt. More DPS = shorter fights = less damage taken, so min-maxers might see this in a different way than you do.
    The amoutn of less dmg taken cause the tank has 3-4% more crit (i would guess it beeing 10% next tier) and so full of RNG. There are more ways to gain dps as a tank than a minor crit buff. Warriors now scale better with crit in terms of dps.

    It doesnt solve the problem that monks druids and pala take crit/haste to get higher survivability and higher AM uptimes. No Warrior or DK would gem/reforge to dodge or parry to gain more crit.

  16. #16
    Just off the top of my head, you could use Phase Fingers, the on-use Darkmoon Stam trinket, and a Dodge elixir to gain a large amount of Dodge rating and, as a result, a large amount of Crit rating when you get the proc. But I have no idea if it would carry the snapshot, or refresh it with the current Dodge/Parry rating every time you dodged or parried. But at the very least, a DK could load up a high Crit rating, apply their diseases, and keep refreshing them with Scarlet Fever via Blood Boil.
    Last edited by Tarazet; 2013-06-21 at 01:47 PM.

  17. #17
    You could also just use a trinket like Shadopan Str trinket or the jikun/horridon one to gain extra dps and survivability. or use the str flasks which would result in a higher dps gain than the dodge one.

    For example the best geared DK tank currently has an ilvl of 551 and he has ~6k dodge and ~6k parry. So 12k total now it will give him 6k crit rating = 10% crit.

    The darkmoon card trinket gives you 8800 dodge and giving you 4400 crit rating=7.3%crit for that time. So overall you would gain about 1.3%crit using the darkmoon card trinket.

    The one thing where I can see riposte beeing really strong if they change it to haste for DKs and keep crit for Warrior. DKs get faster runes and warriors get the proc from shield slam more often.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Viromand View Post
    You could also just use a trinket like Shadopan Str trinket or the jikun/horridon one to gain extra dps and survivability. or use the str flasks which would result in a higher dps gain than the dodge one.

    For example the best geared DK tank currently has an ilvl of 551 and he has ~6k dodge and ~6k parry. So 12k total now it will give him 6k crit rating = 10% crit.

    The darkmoon card trinket gives you 8800 dodge and giving you 4400 crit rating=7.3%crit for that time. So overall you would gain about 1.3%crit using the darkmoon card trinket.

    The one thing where I can see riposte beeing really strong if they change it to haste for DKs and keep crit for Warrior. DKs get faster runes and warriors get the proc from shield slam more often.
    In the event that Riposte snapshots, and you just need to keep refreshing it by dodging/parrying attacks, then you could /cancelaura the Elixir of Mirrors and put on your strength flask for the rest of the fight. But even if it doesn't, your optimal crit rate on diseases would be maintained for the entire encounter just by refreshing them with Blood Boil before they fall off, something like the Festerblight mechanic.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by exochaft View Post
    At least in a 25man environment, warriors really weren't that bad off in terms of DPS output.
    Warriors are 20% lower tank dps across the board regardless of how you look at it, we're 50% behind monks.
    This change is not any where NEAR enough of a buff, its a bandaid and we'll still be 18-30% behind paladin/monks.
    Its even a shitty bandaid, 10-15% more crit is laughable... Warriors are not close to happy yet...
    In warrior testing it doesnt snapshot shit, dynamically updates making it even more horrible.

    I dont need to be OP but i'd like to see them go with their dps mantra of 5-10% is acceptable...fine.
    Make me 5% worse than a current monk and i can live with no OP selfheals/raidheals. :P
    Last edited by santa666; 2013-06-21 at 03:01 PM.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Tarazet View Post
    Don't underestimate players' capacity to adapt. More DPS = shorter fights = less damage taken, so min-maxers might see this in a different way than you do.
    I do not underestimate players, but this isn't something clever that you can really exploit such as paladins bubbling off tankswap effects to roll with one tank. This is a very, very small amount of crit. It also does NOT snapshot, so you can't game it that way either. It's still early in testing, and may change but as it is it will be nearly unnoticeable. It will not close the gap of tank dps in its current form.

    The only way it might is if warriors/dks starting going 100% gearing for parry/dodge and that would reduce their mitigation so much it would make them much more difficult to keep alive. It's all really simple when you look at it. Druids/monks like agility a whole lot and paladins like haste a whole lot, it's their primary defensive stats AND powerful offensive stats at the same time. By stacking them they gain mitigation while gaining damage, for warriors and DKs it's pretty much mastery or go home, which does not increase our damage output.

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