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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by exochaft View Post
    At least in a 25man environment, warriors really weren't that bad off in terms of DPS output. To put it nicely, my warrior counter-part could push similar number prior to legendary meta gems in similar gear... my DK tanking counter-part not so much. However, if Primordius is any indication, whenever my warrior co-tank got several stacks of crit buff, his damage output was massive (silly crits with Shield Slam to which Mangle could never compare). Overall, I think it's a good thing for warriors/DKs to get some DPS benefit from their tanking stats, especially DKs. I do think, however, that it could push Guardian tank DPS towards the bottom of the tanking pack unless adjustments are made.

    Again, I'm speaking from a 25man perspective. In lower Vengeance scenarios, such as 10man, Riposte is likely needed for warriors/DKs to be competitive.

    Isn't this a bit anecdotal? i mean, these are individuals in your guild and do not represent the player base ( i know this is not what you said)

    http://www.raidbots.com/dpsbot/Overa...00011111000000

    suggests that warriors and DKs are behind the rest by a good margin, warriors more so than DKs, but still.

    edit: included the correct link.

  2. #22
    Tested it on PTR not long ago as a Protection warrior, having 5125 parry and 4523 dodge ratings, I got exact: 9675 / 2 = 4837 critical strike rating (around 8% additional critical strike chance) for 20 secs.

    Need to also note that it is getting affected by stacking effects such as River's Song, providing higher critical strike, and it does get overriden by the lower basic value, if it happens that any of such effects fade off.

    Meaning, I had 2 stacks of River's Song, giving an additional 3300 dodge rating, and Riposte went up to: (9675 + 3300) / 2 = 6487 critical strike rating (around 11%), but as soon as River's Song effect was over, Riposte got refreshed from another dodge / parry back to 4837 critical strike rating.

    As for Protection warriors, Riposte will be vital for the new Ultimatum, as it will activate only from Shield Slam's critical hits, as well as a new way of getting the Enrage procs.

    On a side note, I noticed, while testing the new warrior tier 16 armor on PTR, that the heal from the 2-set bonus ("You heal for 30% of all damage blocked with a shield and 30% of all damage absorbed by Shield Barrier") is able to crit, which is also a plus to Riposte.

    Speaking in terms of pure damage, I think it will only bring warriors a bit closer on damage to other classes. In my raid group, a druid tank is always higher on dps and damage than me (and he gems and focuses on crit in his gear). Can't say anything for Blood death knights, as we haven't had one in our raid team for a long time.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Museigen View Post
    I do not underestimate players, but this isn't something clever that you can really exploit such as paladins bubbling off tankswap effects to roll with one tank. This is a very, very small amount of crit. It also does NOT snapshot, so you can't game it that way either. It's still early in testing, and may change but as it is it will be nearly unnoticeable. It will not close the gap of tank dps in its current form.

    The only way it might is if warriors/dks starting going 100% gearing for parry/dodge and that would reduce their mitigation so much it would make them much more difficult to keep alive. It's all really simple when you look at it. Druids/monks like agility a whole lot and paladins like haste a whole lot, it's their primary defensive stats AND powerful offensive stats at the same time. By stacking them they gain mitigation while gaining damage, for warriors and DKs it's pretty much mastery or go home, which does not increase our damage output.
    To be precise, Druids and Monks don't stack Agility, but rather Hit/Exp/Critical Strike to allow us to use our active mitigation abilities more frequently. There are alternative Mastery builds for both classes if you're after more effective hit points, but they come with a large penalty to DPS and are generally not used. The issue is that there's no similar TankPS build for Warriors or Death Knights, and that has made them lag behind in DPS.

    If the increased critical chance is really that small, then I have to wonder why they bothered at all. It just makes them look inept to put in this dramatic-looking talent that does nothing.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Tarazet View Post

    If the increased critical chance is really that small, then I have to wonder why they bothered at all. It just makes them look inept to put in this dramatic-looking talent that does nothing.
    my warrior, in full stamina gems ilvl 546 has roughly 29% parry and 11% dodge, unbuffed. this is 20% crit chance increase. This coupled sslam crits procing ultimatum and devastate, revenge and sslam crits procing enrage. i don't know how someone can say this is a miniscule amount. It's a lot, and is alot better than nothing. This will also add the desired secondary dps stat scaling and scaling in general for protection warrior. Which we've lacked through out MoP.

    also, keep in mind, this will be 5.4, everyone will have access to new tier of gear and the dodge + parry amounts will increase even further. That said, i don't really see gemming for dodge/parry to be beneficial. Sure enough you'll gain maybe another 5% crit, at the cost of mitigation and hp.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by aGit View Post
    my warrior, in full stamina gems ilvl 546 has roughly 29% parry and 11% dodge, unbuffed. this is 20% crit chance increase. This coupled sslam crits procing ultimatum and devastate, revenge and sslam crits procing enrage. i don't know how someone can say this is a miniscule amount. It's a lot, and is alot better than nothing. This will also add the desired secondary dps stat scaling and scaling in general for protection warrior. Which we've lacked through out MoP.

    also, keep in mind, this will be 5.4, everyone will have access to new tier of gear and the dodge + parry amounts will increase even further. That said, i don't really see gemming for dodge/parry to be beneficial. Sure enough you'll gain maybe another 5% crit, at the cost of mitigation and hp.
    Except Riposte is not taking your dodge + parry % but the rating on your character sheet. If your dodge and parry rating are a combined 10 000 then you gain 5 000 critical strike rating out of it. It is not that strong as people make it to be, it's a DPS increase but not by a large amount (which it would be if it took the dodge + parry % which is easily 20% for most geared warriors)

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by aGit View Post
    my warrior, in full stamina gems ilvl 546 has roughly 29% parry and 11% dodge, unbuffed. this is 20% crit chance increase. .
    It's not based off your dodge and parry % it's based off the rating and the strg to parry conversion is not being calculated in at this time as strng adds to parry % but not parry rating.

    It is a very minor buff atm and would mostprobably need to go off of the % instead of the rating to see any significan't gains to bring us up to the other tanks that double dip off crit and get a dps boost and mitigation boost!

  7. #27
    oh, didn't know that.

    does crit have DRs? how much crit would 7800 of parry rating and 5400 of dodge rating convert to then?

  8. #28
    According to Raidbots.com Guardian Druids at currently not 8% higher in DPS. We are actually just barely over DKs and Warrs and not enough to say we aren't groups with them. And that is with us Gemming and Reforging to Hit/Exp/Crit.... If we go the Mastery route we are probably the bottom of the pile. So if they do not give us something as we currently are we will be at the bottom of the pile again.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by aGit View Post
    Isn't this a bit anecdotal? i mean, these are individuals in your guild and do not represent the player base ( i know this is not what you said)

    http://www.raidbots.com/dpsbot/Overa...00011111000000

    suggests that warriors and DKs are behind the rest by a good margin, warriors more so than DKs, but still.

    edit: included the correct link.
    I'd take Raidbots info with a grain of salt, especially with the tank DPS spread. Part of the reason why monks/paladins are parsing so much higher than everyone else is their ability to soak insane levels of damage comfortably a la solo-tanking or taking extra damage on purpose (hence why Vengeance cap is getting lowered to discourage such practices). This is exaggerated if you look at the Top 100, which is nowhere near representing the entire spread of tanks. If anything, if you look at the individual fights and know what each tanking class is capable of doing in terms of executing the encounters, it shows that druids, warriors, and DK's are pretty close to each other when these classes cannot cheese mechanics (which class does more damage actual varies from fight to fight). Paladins and monks are much more able to solo-tank and eat high damage attacks comfortably, which is why they're generally above the rest of the tanks for every encounter.

    Also, I do not think Riposte will stay at it's current power if it will use ratings instead of percentages (unless they buff damage output elsewhere, if it's meant to be for DPS purposes). It's a step in the right direction, to say the least, and my prot warrior and blood DK alts are happy for it. However, if Blizz really is going to overhaul tanking with respect to avoidance like they've been hinting (something this major would be next expansion at the earliest, if it happens at all), it's just a temporary fix.
    *Since I'm tired of reposting the link:* EH vs TTL and Hybrid Tax

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Tricksterjim View Post
    According to Raidbots.com Guardian Druids at currently not 8% higher in DPS. We are actually just barely over DKs and Warrs and not enough to say we aren't groups with them. And that is with us Gemming and Reforging to Hit/Exp/Crit.... If we go the Mastery route we are probably the bottom of the pile. So if they do not give us something as we currently are we will be at the bottom of the pile again.
    When you say these things you need to provide a link as supporting evidence.

    25h is horribly skewed in later encounters because there are so few Guardians actually doing them. In earlier encounters Guardians perform very well compared to DKs and Warriors. A lot of this information is also heavily skewed by single-tanking fights that were intended to be two-tanked, and/or abusing Vengeance. Neither of those will be a thing in 5.4.

    Warriors are extremely consistently on the bottom in 10h no matter what measure you use, and no matter what encounter you look at.

    Edit: Exo beat me.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Tricksterjim View Post
    According to Raidbots.com Guardian Druids at currently not 8% higher in DPS. We are actually just barely over DKs and Warrs and not enough to say we aren't groups with them. And that is with us Gemming and Reforging to Hit/Exp/Crit.... If we go the Mastery route we are probably the bottom of the pile. So if they do not give us something as we currently are we will be at the bottom of the pile again.
    Alot of top100 Dks run haste or did something(like exo and arielle siad) to get that high dps.

    All tanks favor hit and expertise btw its not only Palas druid and monks.

    There is currently no reason to drop the crit gemming for mastery, the reason we gem for crit is cause its better than to gem mastery, no tank class gems for dps right now the only reason they gem haste/crit is cause you take less dmg and heal more.

    Top100 is closer together but DKs best way to gem is mastery right now cause its so strong with their AM. And both warrior and DK lag alot of dmg when gemming that way.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Tarazet View Post
    Don't underestimate players' capacity to adapt. More DPS = shorter fights = less damage taken, so min-maxers might see this in a different way than you do.
    If they want more dps they would just gear for crit/haste, not dodge/parry for half the amount. If they want survivalability they gem stam/mastery. Nobody in their right mind would ever go for the middle way with half dmg, half mitigation, especially when both of them rely on RNG.

    In its current form it's not going to affect gearing at all.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Arielle View Post
    When you say these things you need to provide a link as supporting evidence.

    25h is horribly skewed in later encounters because there are so few Guardians actually doing them. In earlier encounters Guardians perform very well compared to DKs and Warriors. A lot of this information is also heavily skewed by single-tanking fights that were intended to be two-tanked, and/or abusing Vengeance. Neither of those will be a thing in 5.4.

    Warriors are extremely consistently on the bottom in 10h no matter what measure you use, and no matter what encounter you look at.

    Edit: Exo beat me.
    When you say these things you need to have read all posts otherwise you will miss the link that was posted right before my comment andc seem like a troll.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Tricksterjim View Post
    When you say these things you need to have read all posts otherwise you will miss the link that was posted right before my comment andc seem like a troll.
    If by "posted right before" you mean 6 posts prior half way up the page then yeah.... But you don't reference that post or its poster, you only reference Raidbots.com. If you are going off someone else post, its helpful to the rest of us if you "quote" them or or give some clear reference to their post instead of assuming we will know which one you mean.

    Its been said before but there are quite a few ways to skew a tanks dps in your favor if you are that worried your raid will sit you. We also cannot tell how relatively close each class is until Blizz addresses the cheezing done by monks and pallys. But right now Riposte doesn't look very threatening
    Last edited by Kioga; 2013-06-22 at 12:46 AM.

  15. #35
    As a blood DK, in my current gear Riposte would give a massive 900 crit rating. So no, against DKs at least, nothing will change.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Maelstrom51 View Post
    As a blood DK, in my current gear Riposte would give a massive 900 crit rating. So no, against DKs at least, nothing will change.
    what item lvl do you have i mean that 1800 in dodge and parry rating that very low

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Viromand View Post
    what item lvl do you have i mean that 1800 in dodge and parry rating that very low
    Blood DKs don't care about dodge/parry. Haste provides as much survivability and more dps.

    Also, I'm currently sitting at 528 ilvl.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Maelstrom51 View Post
    Blood DKs don't care about dodge/parry. Haste provides as much survivability and more dps.

    Also, I'm currently sitting at 528 ilvl.
    No class really cares about dodge/parry as it is. You must have been incredibly lucky with your itemization o.O

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Maelstrom51 View Post
    Blood DKs don't care about dodge/parry. Haste provides as much survivability and more dps.

    Also, I'm currently sitting at 528 ilvl.
    but having 1800 combined dodge and parry means you're already equipping quite alot of dps gear. i have over 13k parry + dodge rating when i've reforged everything away i can, this is with pure tanking gear and no dps gear at all.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by aGit View Post
    but having 1800 combined dodge and parry means you're already equipping quite alot of dps gear. i have over 13k parry + dodge rating when i've reforged everything away i can, this is with pure tanking gear and no dps gear at all.
    If you only have master plus hit/haste/exp gear and only sets with dodge and parry its not even that hard.

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