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  1. #1

    Symbiosis QoL buff

    Leveling a character and hitting 87 for most classes is a milestone in feeling the change in power lvl as you progress through the game. Most classes gain amazingly powerful abilities that really define the class from the moment they hit lvl 87 and gain access to their new ability. However, when a druid hits 87 there is no immediate change in the druid play style. I love the idea of symbiosis, it is definitely a word that comes to mind when I think 'Druid' but in its current form it brings to mind the word 'dependent'.

    I would like to see a rework to the way symbiosis works. It is the most lackluster lvl 87 ability of any class yet at the same time the most versatile. The problem is that it is a completely non functioning spell when by yourself and limits pvp comps that Druids can work well in. I would like to see symbiosis reworked to be an ability that grants an additional talent regardless if you have a team mate to cast it on or not.

    Perhaps something along the lines of being able to cast it on self and depending on which specialization you are you would have different choices to choose from. You could even work in a smaller passive buff to those in party/raid similar to the choice you would pick.

    One way this could be done is creating 3 ability options per the 4 specializations Druids can choose. So instead of gaining symbiosis with another player you would gain, for example, symbiosis with the forest as one of the options for resto, increasing max charges on force of nature by X. It would be tough to balance the viability of each of the 3 options for each specialization but would give Druids a huge QoL buff and really make the talent stand out much more similar in the way other class' lvl 87 talents stand out.

    So what do you guys think?

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-21 at 08:59 PM ----------

    Ib4 tldr /10char
    Last edited by Crimsonelement; 2013-06-21 at 09:07 PM.

  2. #2
    It could work as long as you were no longer able to do so after you were grouped with another player.

    I think they already gave us a nice QoL buff when they made it castable in combat and reduced the cast time/CD.

  3. #3
    I think something for the druids QoL with symbiosis is definitely due, and personally I think this could work:

    If the druid is solo he can target any class outside his group and get their ability, just as it works now. The target outside the druid's group would not recieve the druid's equivalent.

    Also if the druid joins a group or raid, he loses the buff and is forced to symbi someone in his group, to prevent druids from bringing ideal symbi's into a raid environment or pvp.

    So a soloing, questing, leveling druid can go hang out in Stormwind for 2 minutes, snag a symbi off someone that looks neat, and go play for the duration of their leveling that night with it up. They log, they lose it, etc.
    Quote Originally Posted by Myobi View Post
    Get real bro, if walkers bite Daryl, they become Daryl's.

  4. #4
    That still doesn't resolve the problem of symbiosis requiring a second player for the ability to work. I feel it should be usable the moment you gain the ability to do so without having to go fund another player, regardless of group setting that is still 'dependent'.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Crimsonelement View Post
    That still doesn't resolve the problem of symbiosis requiring a second player for the ability to work. I feel it should be usable the moment you gain the ability to do so without having to go fund another player, regardless of group setting that is still 'dependent'.
    You may wish to look up the definition of the word 'symbiotic'.
    Quote Originally Posted by Myobi View Post
    Get real bro, if walkers bite Daryl, they become Daryl's.

  6. #6
    Stood in the Fire Paloro's Avatar
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    I like this idea and have been thinking of it for awhile myself. The idea behind it, from my perspective, was that it allowed you to perform a skill previously unavailable to you. If cast on another druid, or yourself, you should be able to take on the effect of a different skill.

    Examples:
    Resto would get something like Starfall on a 1 min cd
    Balance and Feral would get Nature's Swiftness on a 1 min cd (since it was just taken away from us)
    Guardian would get Wild Growth that would proc off of every dodge (the scaling could be from AP if they wanted to include Vengeance with it)

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by furriusmurrius View Post
    You may wish to look up the definition of the word 'symbiotic'.
    I understand what you are attempting to imply by the definition of symbiosis. But I don't think you read my post in its entirety. If you had you might have understood that I would like to see the change from symbiosis with other players to a symbiosis with different aspects of nature. Does that make more sense now?

  8. #8
    I don't know that it needs a buff, honestly. The spells you give/receive are mediocre most of the time anyway for PvE. You can get some really cool PvP skills, but how exactly would Anti-Magic Shell help you kill things in PvE? Not like you die in PvE as a Druid anyway, so the only thing you'd need is a skill to help you kill faster, which Symbiosis doesn't give Boomkins (aside from Mirror Image... Sort of). Feral gets a couple of interesting spells, but none that are particularly useful in leveling either, aside from maybe Feral Spirit.

    It's more of a raiding/grouping/PvP skill based on the abilities you receive from people, so there's no real reason to ever use it without other people around anyway. I know that as far as level 87 talents go it's kind of "meh" but Druids aren't the only class like that. Priests get Void Shift, that requires another person in your group as well and is completely useless for leveling. Warlocks get Demonic Gateway which is also useless outside of raids and PvP, by the time you cast it to go somewhere you could have ran there already, completely useless for leveling or soloing. Yes Symbiosis is bad for leveling and questing alone, but it's insanely good in raids. I really don't think it needs to be changed at all.

  9. #9
    The Lightbringer Ermahgerd's Avatar
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    It's kinda sad because there's an item in the game that grants the symbiosis buff for other classes besides druids.

  10. #10
    After looking up the other classes lvl 87 abilities I'm quite perturbed that we have had to settle for symbiosis. Priests are the only other class that I saw, that had a lackluster spell that can only be used in a group.

    I agree, the concept of a spell that requires you to be in a group and then is limited by the players in that group is.... well... crap. Especially if you find yourself in a group with more than 2 druids and they want to target the same player.

    We already have several talents that vary depending on our spec that i would prefer not to make symbiosis more of the same. I think it would work better if you could target any other player regardless of group and last 4 hrs. Why 4 hrs? That is the avg length of a raid. That way i can have a shammy buff in my 10man.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Kioga View Post
    We already have several talents that vary depending on our spec that i would prefer not to make symbiosis more of the same. I think it would work better if you could target any other player regardless of group and last 4 hrs. Why 4 hrs? That is the avg length of a raid. That way i can have a shammy buff in my 10man.
    If they're going to do that then they should just remove the ability, give us a list of skills we can choose from, and allow us to choose any of the skills we want from that list. Would be completely pointless. Besides, why you'd only want one ability is beyond me anyway, switching depending on the fight is the point of that skill.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Rucati View Post
    If they're going to do that then they should just remove the ability, give us a list of skills we can choose from, and allow us to choose any of the skills we want from that list. Would be completely pointless. Besides, why you'd only want one ability is beyond me anyway, switching depending on the fight is the point of that skill.
    I never said I only wanted one ability but it would be nice to have full access to ALL of the abilities and not be limited by the comp of my 10 man or have to be in a group to even use it. Even the priests' lackluster ability isn't hampered by which classes are brought to the raid. We stand alone in that regard. My suggestion may very well not be all that practical since you would need to zone out or Hearth to target a player with your desired buff, if you swapped to something else for a particular fight.

    Being one of only 2 classes that require you to be in a group to use your ability and then have your choices determined by external factors such as raid comp is not the kind of non-homogenization I was hoping for. What the best solution? I'm not sure but I have faith the druid community can come up with something.
    Last edited by Kioga; 2013-06-21 at 10:08 PM.

  13. #13
    Symbiosis is a fun, powerful, and versatile skill in both PvP and PvE. Stop whining.

  14. #14
    It is the most lackluster lvl 87 ability of any class yet at the same time the most versatile.
    Yeah cause at lv 87 all the other class get the good stuff, lets see.

    Monk: teleport
    Paladin: That aoe disoriented thing I used once in 3 months.
    Warlock: Demongate, only reallygood in raids/dungeons.
    Priest: HP change. Our last dispriest killed himself more with this ability than actually saved someone still only usable in a group.

    Dont know about roques/Dks cause I dont play them but only mage and hunters get really strong stuff at lvl 87.

    And Symbiosis is really strong, in PvP aswell as in PVE.
    There are a few dumb tuff some the druid or some classes get but still symbiosis makes some fights a bit easier and eventually help get a kill.

  15. #15
    I would rather have 1 useful ability than a list to chose from with more than half of it feels useless in a given situation. It is just too complicated for what it offers. For example I nearly always want Unending Resolve from warlocks as a balance since I feel like we lack defense as balance. Maybe Anti-magic Shell from DK or Cloak from rogue. But they are defensives aswell. Don't know about other specs but I guess everyone has something lacking and they prefer that type most of the time if possible. Even if I can choose from a list it won't offer that much choices as it seems first. Especially you don't always have the class you want.

    At least they could rename it to Xyz Blessing and made it work like seals, enhancments, stances or pet summons (I mean I want the rolling out button bar that warlock pet summons have). You could use it alone but only one could be active at a time. With a cooldown at switching ofc!
    Batmon and Spidermon, da troll supaheroes.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Sicc View Post
    I would rather have 1 useful ability than a list to chose from with more than half of it feels useless in a given situation. It is just too complicated for what it offers. For example I nearly always want Unending Resolve from warlocks as a balance since I feel like we lack defense as balance. Maybe Anti-magic Shell from DK or Cloak from rogue. But they are defensives aswell. Don't know about other specs but I guess everyone has something lacking and they prefer that type most of the time if possible. Even if I can choose from a list it won't offer that much choices as it seems first. Especially you don't always have the class you want.
    So you think getting a defensiv cooldown like UR AMS cloak or shield from pala it doesnt have anything to offer? AMS has proven to be a DPS gain on some fights, not to mention the stuff the others also get, defensiv cooldown for a rogue, dps cooldown for dpsDks or a CD for tanks. BR for healpala CD for tankpalas.
    Symbiosis is really strong for balance tbh.

    Symbiosis ist so strong cause its not jsut 1 static ability, it gives you 2 and you can choose which one you want if you have that class in your raid.

    Its one of the strongest utility spells ingame, and the best non pure dps spell gained at lvl 87.

    I never thought giving it to a Mage would help me in any way. but due to the mage having HT we got our kill on leishen. casue we had a bad comp at that time and with that strat the boss was way easier than with the other ones we came up with.

    symbiosis should stay as it is, cause its really strong for all specs and most of the encounters.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Rucati View Post
    If they're going to do that then they should just remove the ability, give us a list of skills we can choose from, and allow us to choose any of the skills we want from that list. Would be completely pointless. Besides, why you'd only want one ability is beyond me anyway, switching depending on the fight is the point of that skill.
    Switching every fight is cool but pointless if the majority of your choices are useless. I feel like the ability works when I run Resto, as I switch between Cleanse, LG, SWG & the different damage reduction cooldowns depending on the fight. Sure some aren't great (Lock, Warr, Rogue) but the others feel useful and like they actually make a difference for me during the fight.

    But... when I'm running my Guardian mainspec, always Elusive Brew (we don't have a DK) or LS/Consecration if it's farm content. I rather miss the fact that as a tank all the utility abilities they choose are nigh on useless, and in forcing the choice between utility and damage reduction... utility will generally lose. I rather wish ALL the Guardian damage reduction choices were removed and we were given more exciting utility/damage options - Deathgrip from DK (would kill for this), Some form of AoE taunt from Warr (eg, Challenging Roar back) or possibly Shockwave for an AoE stun (would be good for trash/adds/C-modes), maybe some form of location swap (think Matter Swap on Animus) from Locks, an extra dot on crit/auto attack on a poison theme from Rogues. Also got the possibility of movement utilities like Roll, Disengage, Blink, Shadowstep etc. Priest I struggle to think of something interesting but PvEwise ugh @ Fearward.

    As it stands I'd say over half of the Guardian choices are basically worthless or down right bad, and I'd love to see them re-evaluated to some abilities that more people would want to use. Unlike Resto even the 'good' options are lacking any fun factor or even observable results.

    As Resto I would say I'm happy with it; as a tank I'd certainly be happy to see it reworked into something more engaging. If they fixed it so it could be used while solo & with whatever classes were in your group then that would be a huge bonus, but without a rework for Guardian it'd still be 'meh unnoticeable damage reduction' or 'yay a barely noticeable amount of damage' (or my all time favourite of 'lets give the Mage/Lock a lolheal'). I strongly feel nothing it currently offers for a tank is game or fight changing enough to even notice, presumably because they didn't want to go through any effort to balance some more interesting or useful options.

    Not sure about the OP's idea as it feels rather like a talent that gives you a choice of 4 glyphs, rather than an ability in itself... but hey, it probably couldn't be more dull than the current Symbiosis choices for Guardian.

  18. #18
    Field Marshal
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    I agree with Kaiarra - as Guardian or Balance, it's generally the same shortlist of 2-3 classes' abilities that you're seeking in a raid environment, the others generally don't offer much. It's a shame some of them are so nerfed that they can't be used - for instance, when we were progressing on heroic Horridon, our Monk tank would Grapple Weapon on the War-God when he came down, so I thought to myself "Cool, I'll take GW as well and help to chain disarm him". Nope, Druid GW doesn't disarm him, so I was left scratching my head thinking "I don't get the damage buff a Monk gets AND I can't disarm anything worth disarming. Why would I want this?". Symbiosis - especially for Balance - is either hoping for the right class to be there so you can nab a defensive c/d or giving it to whichever tank class will benefit most.

    Look at the list of things Feral and Resto get - that's how it should be for all specs. Blizzard has flat-out invented some spells to swap with Symbiosis (e.g. Wild Mushroom: Plague) so if they honestly can't think of some better alternatives for Balance / Guardian - MAKE SOME UP!

  19. #19
    My problem with Symbiosis is that the target player can right-klik and remove the buff.
    I dont think they should be given that option.
    Its our spell not theirs, if they dont want it, they re free no to use it, but i want what i get from em.

    I used to use an add on announcing via say or wisper the symbiosis to my target, but i ve quit using it cause when i did, many removed it
    Last edited by dgiras; 2013-06-23 at 02:39 PM.
    Die by the sword

  20. #20
    I dont know why all thign its so bad i mean balance druids get so cool stuff.

    balance: AMS, MD, hammer of justice, masss dispel, cloak, UR, and intervene(you can argue about this but intervene and AMS provide a dps increase on some fights)

    Resto: WL teleport, cleanse, a couple of def cd, ice block, and the one from shamans where you can cast while running.

    Cat: redirect, soulswap, shattering, few def cd.

    guardian: feint, boneshied, consecration, elusive brew, frost trap.


    And those are only the ones you gain not to mention what the other class gains.

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