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  1. #561
    Scarab Lord Kazomir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    The Alliance is using the rebels in a similar manner, what is your point exactly, that each side tries to screw the other over? Hardly surprising.
    If the alliance tried to screw over the rebels then they would have used them to kill garrosh and THEN speak on their own terms instead of leaving.
    Quote Originally Posted by biolink22 View Post
    rogue "glory hole helm"

  2. #562
    I am Murloc! Fenixdown's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    Sorry but that is just not true.

    You got Dalaran and the Kirin Tor
    The dwarves are united
    Jaina got some of the Thunder kings power
    Kalecgos is part of the Alliance
    Gilneas is almost entirely under Alliance control
    You will raid the horde capital (I know you won't accept this one, but many horde players find that rather humiliating)
    You still have some airships
    etc.
    -Dalaran will continue to be a neutral hub for both factions in the next expansion.
    -Dwarves are united? That's all you got? Horde got the trolls united, so only breaks even at best.
    -Jaina also went batshit crazy. Who cares, we lost a bright spot in our faction's leadership. Would not be surprised at all if she ends up the Alliance version of Sylvanas in the future.
    -Kalecgos is not part of the Alliance. He's just in a flimsy relationship with a human woman and as such is trying to support her. Take away his love affair with Jaina, which doesn't even really make sense in the first place, and you have him just as neutral as the others.
    -Gilneas will STILL be a battleground in the next expansion, which as such shows that it is contested territory and not under anyone's control.
    -You're right, that is still not a victory. I don't care how Horde fanboys feel about it. In a real life situation it wouldn't be considered a victory, either. It's just janitorial work.
    -Oh yay. We have some airships. Hey we should celebrate that our air support wasn't completely obliterated for our janitorial duties. Woo.

    You may want to get to the ect. part. Bec ause I just knocked down your flimsy, pathetic list of what we "got" in all of this.

  3. #563
    I'd like a Senior Vice President, Story and Franchise Development for Blizzard who gets the same boner for Varian Wrynn that he gets for Thrall.

    I'd like the Horde to be forced through a painful storyline that has nothing to do with their faction the same way we (Alliance) had to putz along with Ocra, Oprah or w/e her name was as we "saved" Thrall before, during and after Dragon Soul.

    Lastly, I'd like Gnomeregan to be an active capital city and for Gnomes to be plastered all over the next expansion's Cinematic to the same extent as humans in every WoW cinematic since 2004.

  4. #564
    Bloodsail Admiral KunkkaTheAdmiral's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kazomir View Post
    Does not matter. The point still stands that the Alliance is being used by the horde, like a condom, get in, do the job, get thrown away.
    This is not true, even though Vol'jin wishes to use the alliance, in the end its the alliance who uses the darkspear, the darkspear are the ones who's life are at stake for heading the charge into Orgrimmar. Important: I don't talk about the horde, I talk about darkspear and tauren and probably a few orcs. Its the alliance, bloodelves and forsaken who land at the shore, which is way safer to begin with.

    Vol'jin admitted he needs the alliances help for dethroning Garrosh, for a troll thats the most disgusting behaviour you could imagine, no other troll would ask his enemies for help.

    He degrades himself as a shadowhunter and leader of the Darkspear for the sake of the Horde, he lets the alliance use the darkspear willingly.

    And in the end its heros like Saurfang who lie wounded on the ground and your alliance marches on to Garrosh.

    Besides all that, look at the situation right now in 5.3.

    The rebels are gathering resources to fight and prepare for Garrosh, yes it is true that the alliance send a very small unit to discover what happens in Durotar but there is no mention of many alliance forces in the barrens who fight the Kor'kron.

    There were never many alliance forces involved anyways right now, maybe, but just maybe a tiny number of troops to help the nameless / faceless alliance heros.

    Its again the rebel forces who gather the material to head into Orgrimmar.

    That the rebels are using the alliance might be right in your head, but it sure isn't for the actual events.
    "Why do we fight? To protect home and family, to preserve balance and bring harmony. For my kind the true question is, what is worth fighting for?"

  5. #565
    Scarab Lord Kazomir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KunkkaTheAdmiral View Post
    This is not true, even though Vol'jin wishes to use the alliance, in the end its the alliance who uses the darkspear, the darkspear are the ones who's life are at stake for heading the charge into Orgrimmar. Important: I don't talk about the horde, I talk about darkspear and tauren and probably a few orcs. Its the alliance, bloodelves and forsaken who land at the shore, which is way safer to begin with.

    Vol'jin admitted he needs the alliances help for dethroning Garrosh, for a troll thats the most disgusting behaviour you could imagine, no other troll would ask his enemies for help.

    He degrades himself as a shadowhunter and leader of the Darkspear for the sake of the Horde, he lets the alliance use the darkspear willingly.

    And in the end its heros like Saurfang who lie wounded on the ground and your alliance marches on to Garrosh.

    Besides all that, look at the situation right now in 5.3.

    The rebels are gathering resources to fight and prepare for Garrosh, yes it is true that the alliance send a very small unit to discover what happens in Durotar but there is no mention of many alliance forces in the barrens who fight the Kor'kron.

    There were never many alliance forces involved anyways right now, maybe, but just maybe a tiny number of troops to help the nameless / faceless alliance heros.

    Its again the rebel forces who gather the material to head into Orgrimmar.

    That the rebels are using the alliance might be right in your head, but it sure isn't for the actual events.

    The end is that what matters, and by the looks of it, Varian is just like: "We killed Garrosh! Cool, have a new warchief, we are going to stormwind for a party now, cheerios!"

    How did the alliance use the darkspear exactly is beyond me. To Kill a leader that is actually the reason for the horde falling apart and change him with a stable leader that can make the horde even more powerfull and then leave? I, as an alliance player, feel used.
    Quote Originally Posted by biolink22 View Post
    rogue "glory hole helm"

  6. #566
    Bloodsail Admiral KunkkaTheAdmiral's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kazomir View Post
    The end is that what matters, and by the looks of it, Varian is just like: "We killed Garrosh! Cool, have a new warchief, we are going to stormwind for a party now, cheerios!"
    You didn't talk about the end, you talked about what you think is happening right now, which isn't true, that was the whole point I made, that this is not true.

    And yes by the looks of it Varian does that and I don't like it, neither do you, I would like the alliance to position soldiers and forces for an extended period of time in Orgrimmar, I would like to see us lose Ashenvale and retreat from Gilneas and I would most appreciate it if you buttfuck the forsaken on the way out. Does this actually happen in the future? I don't know but if they happen I won't be one of those "fanboys" who will bitch about it.

    And I'm still flabbergasted that some alliance player won't consider raiding Orgrimmar as a win, its a disgrace to see alliance banners in Orgrimmar and orcs will mourn this day for the rest of their fuckin history, seriously.

    You get the ONE chance to dominate the other faction and humiliate them just because of your appearance in OUR capital. I'm sorry but my Horde toons would celebrate the day we march into Stormwind.
    "Why do we fight? To protect home and family, to preserve balance and bring harmony. For my kind the true question is, what is worth fighting for?"

  7. #567
    I am Murloc! Fenixdown's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KunkkaTheAdmiral View Post
    You didn't talk about the end, you talked about what you think is happening right now, which isn't true, that was the whole point I made, that this is not true.

    And yes by the looks of it Varian does that and I don't like it, neither do you, I would like the alliance to position soldiers and forces for an extended period of time in Orgrimmar, I would like to see us lose Ashenvale and retreat from Gilneas and I would most appreciate it if you buttfuck the forsaken on the way out. Does this actually happen in the future? I don't know but if they happen I won't be one of those "fanboys" who will bitch about it.

    And I'm still flabbergasted that some alliance player won't consider raiding Orgrimmar as a win, its a disgrace to see alliance banners in Orgrimmar and orcs will mourn this day for the rest of their fuckin history, seriously.

    You get the ONE chance to dominate the other faction and humiliate them just because of your appearance in OUR capital. I'm sorry but my Horde toons would celebrate the day we march into Stormwind.
    That's because you know the day Blizzhorde lets you do that it's to take over and crush the Alliance once and for all, not to come in and overthrow your sociopathic leader in a janitorial cleanup job that you shouldn't have needed to happen in the first place if your former leader was capable of analyzing better what his Horde really "needed" in their leadership.

  8. #568
    Scarab Lord Kazomir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KunkkaTheAdmiral View Post
    You didn't talk about the end, you talked about what you think is happening right now, which isn't true, that was the whole point I made, that this is not true.

    And yes by the looks of it Varian does that and I don't like it, neither do you, I would like the alliance to position soldiers and forces for an extended period of time in Orgrimmar, I would like to see us lose Ashenvale and retreat from Gilneas and I would most appreciate it if you buttfuck the forsaken on the way out. Does this actually happen in the future? I don't know but if they happen I won't be one of those "fanboys" who will bitch about it.

    And I'm still flabbergasted that some alliance player won't consider raiding Orgrimmar as a win, its a disgrace to see alliance banners in Orgrimmar and orcs will mourn this day for the rest of their fuckin history, seriously.

    You get the ONE chance to dominate the other faction and humiliate them just because of your appearance in OUR capital. I'm sorry but my Horde toons would celebrate the day we march into Stormwind.

    Sure, imagine you invade Stormwind to de-throne some leader who is actually a VERY BAD LEADER and will ruin the Alliance otherwise, and replace him with good ol'Varian, who by the way asked you to do it, and who then goes and makes the alliance even stronger.

    Sure, We raid Orgrimmar, cool, but I don't feel powerfull because of it. We raid it because we are allowed to do so. And after we do our job, we will apparently be on our way, like nothing happened at all, just like condoms. I dont feel like Fist pumping (sorry i know you hate that word, but WE WERE PROMISED FIST PUMPING DAMN IT!!)
    Quote Originally Posted by biolink22 View Post
    rogue "glory hole helm"

  9. #569
    Whoops, posted in the wrong thread.

    Theramore had it coming.

    That said, Alliance narrative is severely lacking. Whereas the Horde is full of tension, characters with (oftentimes conflicting) goals- the alliance is like a diorama of reactive cutouts.

    OP asked the right question, but answered it wrong. "What does the Alliance want?", this is the question Blizz needs to think upon and answer clearly in the lore.

    To answer the question, we need to look at what the alliance is. The Horde makes this easy; they are a military alliegeance of disparate, desperate, rebuilt, and new players in Azeroth (not unlike the Axis, of history); they are heavy handed, and want to fight for a place in a world that doesn't want them. But where does that put the Alliance? They are The Establishment, the Allies to the Horde's Axis, the coalition of established, secure and prosperous holders of land and power, threatened by the radical and violent Horde upstarts.

    Somewhere along the line, the alliance became more about morality than practicality. Actually, as the establishment the luxury of civil morality and superiority is theirs to claim and feel good about, but second ranked to the wealth and power that affords them this luxury. Just like the Colonial Empires of the Allied Nations, the Alliance needs to demonise and crack down on the Horde with as much or more feverishness that the Horde rails against traditional power to 'get their own'.

    Playing the Alliance should fill you with the satisfaction of 'being the law'; the long strong arm of established power, coming down hard with a centuries-old advantage against the dangerous radicals of the Horde. They can afford to be merciless, because these extremists by necessity have placed themselves outside of the realm of (Alliance skewed) traditional law and order. They need to be put down.

    The Alliance needs to be the bully. The rich kid with all the cards, but also the well being and stability of the land at heart (because they are perched atop this current social superstructure). The Alliance needs to be indisputably stronger than the Horde, if the Horde would but meet the 1-to-1 in open battle. At the moment Blizzard seems to be portraying them as a curious mix of 'underdog' and 'establishment'.

    TL;DR The Alliance needs to be more Lawful than it is Good. Horde wants a bigger piece of the pie, the Alliance needs to indisputably own the pie, and smack hands that snatch at it.

  10. #570
    Bloodsail Admiral KunkkaTheAdmiral's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fenixdown View Post
    That's because you know the day Blizzhorde lets you do that it's to take over and crush the Alliance once and for all, not to come in and overthrow your sociopathic leader in a janitorial cleanup job that you shouldn't have needed to happen in the first place if your former leader was capable of analyzing better what his Horde really "needed" in their leadership.
    You can degrade it as "janitorial work" as much and long as you want, that doesn't make it true, you show you are better than the Horde once and for all.
    Thats the whole point, if Varian really shows mercy with the Horde in that moment you might hate him for that, but still he shows that he is better than Garrosh or Thrall or the Horde itself.

    Of course you won't accept that, because you like the war and would prefer it if the soldiers burn the city and slaughter the hordes people, you won't even waste a thought about what you just did, the same thing the old horde did when they invaded stormwind the first time, behave like bloodthirsty mongrels, thats what they did. If you want your precious alliance to do the same, I pity the alliance for having a member like you.

    I always thought the alliance was about unity and standing against odds together, not about slaughtering everyone for the sake of blood and war.
    "Why do we fight? To protect home and family, to preserve balance and bring harmony. For my kind the true question is, what is worth fighting for?"

  11. #571
    Over 9000! Combatbulter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fenixdown View Post
    Dalaran will continue to be a neutral hub for both factions in the next expansion.
    Doesn't matter lorewise it is.

    Dwarves are united? That's all you got? Horde got the trolls united, so only breaks even at best.
    Spiteful aren't you, after several centuries of civil war that is one major step.

    Jaina also went batshit crazy. Who cares, we lost a bright spot in our faction's leadership. Would not be surprised at all if she ends up the Alliance version of Sylvanas in the future.
    Jaina became more ruthless true, her brinigng political turmoil isn't a bad thing lorewise, absolutely no conflinct within a faction is horrible.

    Kalecgos is not part of the Alliance. He's just in a flimsy relationship with a human woman and as such is trying to support her. Take away his love affair with Jaina, which doesn't even really make sense in the first place, and you have him just as neutral as the others.
    He is a member of the Kirin Tor now, which makes him a member of the Alliance.

    -
    Gilneas will STILL be a battleground in the next expansion, which as such shows that it is contested territory and not under anyone's control.
    Warsong gulch is still a battleground, av is still a battleground, what is your point that it is still ingame? Does not matter from a lore perspective.


    You're right, that is still not a victory. I don't care how Horde fanboys feel about it. In a real life situation it wouldn't be considered a victory, either. It's just janitorial work.
    It is still an assault on Og lorewise.

    Oh yay. We have some airships. Hey we should celebrate that our air support wasn't completely obliterated for our janitorial duties. Woo.
    Oh jay the horde has to raid their own capital city and kill orcs en masse, wooohooo. See that is not a good argument you get across rather whiney

    You may want to get to the ect. part. Bec ause I just knocked down your flimsy, pathetic list of what we "got" in all of this.
    If you were a rational person I might have but you aren't
    He who sees his own doom can better avoid its path. He who sees the doom of others can deliver it.

  12. #572
    Quote Originally Posted by KunkkaTheAdmiral View Post
    Thats the whole point, if Varian really shows mercy with the Horde in that moment you might hate him for that, but still he shows that he is better than Garrosh or Thrall or the Horde itself.

    ...

    I always thought the alliance was about unity and standing against odds together, not about slaughtering everyone for the sake of blood and war.
    I couldn't disagree with this sentiment more. The Alliance likes to feel good about those things, because it has those things, becayse it can afford to, because it is 'the extablishment' of Azerothian order. It's easy to be moral and civilised when you're wealthy, stable, and have owned all the land for ages. That's the point though. The Alliance nations didn't get to be the powerbrokers of Azeroth by singing kumbaya- they won wars, crushed enemies and made tough decisions to bring order (their order) to the land.

    The Alliance needs to flex more. Yes they are 'good', but they are also 'lawful'; they need a little mor eof that last half.

  13. #573
    Scarab Lord Grubjuice's Avatar
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    i was always confused at why the Alliance allowed Garithos to be such a Dick to the Highelves/Bloodelves, and why no one in the Alliance had any sympathy for the foresaken who had regained free will and were all former members of the Alliance.

    They basically threw away two entirely good races and gave them to the horde.

  14. #574
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    The Aspects also attend Malfurion's wedding. They even blessed Teldrassil while there.
    That's true, the Aspects totally attended Malfurion's wedding that we got to experience with an in-game cutscene.

  15. #575
    Bloodsail Admiral KunkkaTheAdmiral's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by composemail View Post
    I couldn't disagree with this sentiment more. The Alliance likes to feel good about those things, because it has those things, becayse it can afford to, because it is 'the extablishment' of Azerothian order. It's easy to be moral and civilised when you're wealthy, stable, and have owned all the land for ages. That's the point though. The Alliance nations didn't get to be the powerbrokers of Azeroth by singing kumbaya- they won wars, crushed enemies and made tough decisions to bring order (their order) to the land.

    The Alliance needs to flex more. Yes they are 'good', but they are also 'lawful'; they need a little mor eof that last half.
    What in the world could be more "flexing" than marching through the enemy capital and leave with showing mercy, saying "The alliance does not need to kill and burn everything, we are better than you could ever be."

    If it really plays out like that, which by the way no one of us knows right now, you couldn't humiliate and flex more in the face of an orc who worships honor more than anything.
    "Why do we fight? To protect home and family, to preserve balance and bring harmony. For my kind the true question is, what is worth fighting for?"

  16. #576
    Quote Originally Posted by Grubjuice View Post
    i was always confused at why the Alliance allowed Garithos to be such a Dick to the Highelves/Bloodelves, and why no one in the Alliance had any sympathy for the foresaken who had regained free will and were all former members of the Alliance.

    They basically threw away two entirely good races and gave them to the horde.
    The key to understanding both of those is understanding the difference between the Alliance of Lordaeron, and the Alliance of Stormwind. The 'Alliance' of WCII and WCIII was the Alliance of Lordaeron. It was destroyed by the scourge. The majority of it now exists as Forsaken and Blood Elf.

    The Alliance of Stormwind was founded later, never included Lordaeron or the Elves of Quel'thalas, and has mainly new members.

  17. #577
    Quote Originally Posted by Grubjuice View Post
    i was always confused at why the Alliance allowed Garithos to be such a Dick to the Highelves/Bloodelves, and why no one in the Alliance had any sympathy for the foresaken who had regained free will and were all former members of the Alliance.

    They basically threw away two entirely good races and gave them to the horde.
    Easily explained. Garithos was isolated from the 'Alliance' - which didn't even really exist at that point. The human nations of the northern Eastern Kingdoms were all but destroyed by the Scourge, Stormwind was still rebuilding, the High Elves were scattered to the wind with the Blood Elves busy rebuilding for the most part. There wasn't really an Alliance in the north anymore, merely a few Warlords claiming to have its authority.

    As for the Forsaken, they are too much like the Scourge and were busy attacking everyone around them. So that explains that.

  18. #578
    Quote Originally Posted by KunkkaTheAdmiral View Post
    What in the world could be more "flexing" than marching through the enemy capital and leave with showing mercy, saying "The alliance does not need to kill and burn everything, we are better than you could ever be."

    If it really plays out like that, which by the way no one of us knows right now, you couldn't humiliate and flex more in the face of an orc who worships honor more than anything.
    The core of it is that none of us does know. However, when the Horde raid rolls through and kills Garrosh, somehow, I don't think they are going to be presented with the "Alliance has defeated Garrosh and will now withdraw with honor" scenario.

  19. #579
    Quote Originally Posted by KunkkaTheAdmiral View Post
    You didn't talk about the end, you talked about what you think is happening right now, which isn't true, that was the whole point I made, that this is not true.

    And yes by the looks of it Varian does that and I don't like it, neither do you, I would like the alliance to position soldiers and forces for an extended period of time in Orgrimmar, I would like to see us lose Ashenvale and retreat from Gilneas and I would most appreciate it if you buttfuck the forsaken on the way out. Does this actually happen in the future? I don't know but if they happen I won't be one of those "fanboys" who will bitch about it.

    And I'm still flabbergasted that some alliance player won't consider raiding Orgrimmar as a win, its a disgrace to see alliance banners in Orgrimmar and orcs will mourn this day for the rest of their fuckin history, seriously.

    You get the ONE chance to dominate the other faction and humiliate them just because of your appearance in OUR capital. I'm sorry but my Horde toons would celebrate the day we march into Stormwind.
    Alliance conquers nothing in Org. Horde is using the Alliance as a tool to help get rid of a super-powered tyrant in a fortress he has command over.

  20. #580
    Quote Originally Posted by KunkkaTheAdmiral View Post
    What in the world could be more "flexing" than marching through the enemy capital and leave with showing mercy, saying "The alliance does not need to kill and burn everything, we are better than you could ever be."

    If it really plays out like that, which by the way no one of us knows right now, you couldn't humiliate and flex more in the face of an orc who worships honor more than anything.
    Well what some of you seem not to understand:

    There is a wide range of possibilities between "Leaving as the good guy" and "bruning everything down"


    So there is nothing less mercyfull and good and noble when you leave the city undestroyed but place guards ther eto keep an eye on the defeated, garrosh loyal orcs, so they don't start bitching again as soon as the alliance left.

    Just like after WWII when the Allied left soldiers in Germany to maintain stability.



    Burning everything down is not the Alliances way, but leaving without doing anything or make sure that the horde will not rise again to bomb down anothe ralliance town (theramore anyone?) is also not very logical.

    Varian allowing a new "War"Chief to be crowned is nothing bad but if I were Varian I would make damn sure that someone gets onto the throne I can trust and who will act in my interests. Also I would leave my 7th lLegion there to keep an eye on what the horde will do next.

    Sorry english is not my first language it is frustrating to not be able to express detailed what I mean.

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