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  1. #1

    Why Does WoW Not Have A -Range Debuff?

    In the MMO City of Heroes there was a debuff that reduced the range of the afflicted target's abilities (aka: -Range) by X # of yards for Y # of seconds. I think Ret & Prot could really benefit from a unique gap closer that isn't a sprint. It also would make for some very interesting play in PvP.

    Example ability (not saying these are balanced or feasible, just examples of the mechanic):

    Code:
    Paladin:
    
    Near-at-Hand
    Magic -Instant
    60 sec cooldown
    3 Holy Power
    40 yard range
    
    The Paladin flashes the target with pure holy light, lowering the target's maximum range on 
    all abilities to by 50% for 6 seconds.
    Last edited by Heywoods; 2013-12-10 at 09:48 PM.

  2. #2
    Pit Lord FuxieDK's Avatar
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    A range-debuff will potentially force casters (and hunters) into melee range..

    If people wated to be in melee range, they would not roll a caster..

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by FuxieDK View Post
    A range-debuff will potentially force casters (and hunters) into melee range..
    Yes..That is the one of the possible purposes it could serve. It wouldn't be a debuff if it didn't provide some negative impact on the afflicted player.

    Quote Originally Posted by FuxieDK View Post
    If people wated to be in melee range, they would not roll a caster..
    I don't think you comprehended what my post is discussing or you are just trolling me.

  4. #4
    I am Murloc! Airwaves's Avatar
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    They already do... after 40 yards there is 100% debuff.
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  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by FuxieDK View Post
    A range-debuff will potentially force casters (and hunters) into melee range..

    If people wated to be in melee range, they would not roll a caster..
    And if wanted to be permarooted I would have roll a tree. Thats the point of debuffs.

  6. #6
    Pit Lord FuxieDK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Airwaves View Post
    They already do... after 40 yards there is 100% debuff.
    Several spells still suffer from 30 yards range.. :-(

  7. #7
    Why do you want to force a RANGED classs/spec to stand in MELEE? Also there are bosses who use abilities on ranged only and it requires you to be spread around so going into melee and getting hit by that ability might wipe your raid. They'll have to completely change the boss fights. It's gonna be a DPS loss overall.
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  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Heywoods View Post
    I don't think you comprehended what my post is discussing or you are just trolling me.

    Perhaps you just didn't understand his point.

    A range debuff would force casters to stay in near melee to avoid having the negative impact. The problem stems from having a class change their playstyle to work around one debuff mechanic. However, if this is simply meant as a CC to lock casters from attacking for X seconds, then a simple Silence spell works better since it's clear on what the function is and how to counter it; it's just a matter of time.

    I don't feel this adds to any compelling gameplay, rather it forces unnecessary work on the afflicted caster. If it's easily removed or on short duration, then it's nothing more than a minor CC ability. Ultimately it doesn't offer any real gameplay changes and would be more of a frustrating mechanic than a beneficial game-changer.

  9. #9
    Would it be unthinkable to have something like a sweet spot for ranged classes? The spot could depend on the class. What I mean is that perhaps 15-25 yards you do maximum damage. If it's too close or too far you suffer smaller penalties. Maybe this sweet spot would depend on the classes, what kind of spells/weapons they use (could apply to certain spells/abilities and not a class as a whole) and their mechanics in some way or another.

    Would this encourage more things such as positioning which has always been less relevant for ranged classes than for melee (who always need to stay within melee ranged of their target)?

    Just throwing it out there. For all I know it might just be a complete shit idea, but it's fun to speculate. The question is what benefits this would bring other than the positioning thing (if that even is a benefit), and would it be worth the potential negatives, both in terms of class balance and gameplay.

  10. #10
    something tells me he just wants this because he can't close down ranged players in PVP.

    but really to be able to force ranged into melee you would need to up the survivability of all ranged classes, as the only real defence ranged have is to play keep away, you take that away by forcing ranged into melee they may as well not be there as they will die stupidly fast or you just get a stale mate as the caster just plays keep away but can't actually hit you. either way casters would be useless.


    @moog while a optimal range may work, there is no way to tell when you are in it, it's the same problem hunters had with fights where they needed to stay close, all you could do was trial and error, where for melee it is simple, you stand right next to the boss and that is your range, so a optimal range would just make it too complex and annoying for ranged unless every boss had the caster range marked round it.
    Last edited by Belimawr; 2013-06-21 at 06:15 AM.

  11. #11
    Only if ranged get another spell that reduces your melee range to 1 yard.
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  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Thimagryn View Post
    Perhaps you just didn't understand his point.
    Maybe, but I don't think that is the case. This hypothetical ability wouldn't reduce a caster to melee only. I mentioned in my post that the -range debuff didn't reduce a casters range to melee. An example in WoW would be ay 40 yards to 20 yards. The efficacy of the -Range debuff & how it was applied depended on the class in City of Heroes & I think the same would apply in WoW.

    Sorry if there was some confusion surrounding what this is.

  13. #13
    Ranged characters in CoH all had quick and easy ways to get far away REALLY fast. None of the ranged in WoW have anything close to super jump or fly. So there's no need for a -range debuff in WoW since ranged classes are balanced to not be able to escape from melee nearly as easily as CoH ranged classes could.

  14. #14
    Epic! Radio's Avatar
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    Just about everyone in this thread is completely misunderstanding the OP.

    He's talking about a potential class ability like this:

    Code:
    Monk:
    
    Foggy Brew
    60 sec cooldown
    30 energy (5% mana)
    40 yard range
    
    The monk douses the target in a Foggy Brew, lowering the target's maximum range on 
    all abilities to 10 yards for 6 seconds. Abilities with a range of less than 10 yards are 
    not affected.

    This would have mostly PVP applications, a form of long cooldown CC where the target is forced to use heals/ranged attacks up close for the duration. It could also be used as an effective temporary silence that doesn't completely lock someone out. It could also be used in PVE as a caster mob dragging spell.

    Another variation could be:

    Code:
    Warrior:
    
    Off-Balance
    (passive)
    
    The force of the warrior's special attacks cause the target to be off-balance for 
    5 seconds, while your target is off-balance, their maximum range on all abilities is 
    reduced to 30 yards. Abilities with a range of less than 30 yards are not affected.

    This would mostly have PVP applications and simply force ranged casters to sit within 30 yards to attack the warrior assuming that they've taken a melee special from the warrior within the last 5 seconds.
    Last edited by Radio; 2013-06-21 at 06:22 AM.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Ruffles View Post
    Why do you want to force a RANGED classs/spec to stand in MELEE? Also there are bosses who use abilities on ranged only and it requires you to be spread around so going into melee and getting hit by that ability might wipe your raid. They'll have to completely change the boss fights. It's gonna be a DPS loss overall.
    Are you implying that if a player had a -range ability it would have an effect on a boss? In the history of WoW, bosses have largely been immune to all forms of CC. Why would this be any different?

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-20 at 11:24 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Radio View Post
    Just about everyone in this thread is completely misunderstanding the OP.
    Thanks Radio. I was hoping my writing skills hadn't deteriorated so much since college that no one on these boards could understand the point I was trying to convey. I should have added an example ability like you did. Definitely clears things up. And I agree it has the most obvious applications to PvP, but I would argue with content like scenarios added to WoW, where the intention was to have the PvE players reach into their toolkit more it would find uses there as well.

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-20 at 11:30 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mogglez View Post
    Would it be unthinkable to have something like a sweet spot for ranged classes? The spot could depend on the class. What I mean is that perhaps 15-25 yards you do maximum damage. If it's too close or too far you suffer smaller penalties. Maybe this sweet spot would depend on the classes, what kind of spells/weapons they use (could apply to certain spells/abilities and not a class as a whole) and their mechanics in some way or another.

    Would this encourage more things such as positioning which has always been less relevant for ranged classes than for melee (who always need to stay within melee ranged of their target)?

    Just throwing it out there. For all I know it might just be a complete shit idea, but it's fun to speculate. The question is what benefits this would bring other than the positioning thing (if that even is a benefit), and would it be worth the potential negatives, both in terms of class balance and gameplay.
    I don't think this is a shit idea at all. It is a really cool twist on the -range idea. It reminds me of the rogues ability, Evasion, except it reduces damage of incoming attacks, instead of dodging them, plus with a little twist of it's efficacy based on the distance from the target. Really cool

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-20 at 11:40 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by SamR View Post
    Ranged characters in CoH all had quick and easy ways to get far away REALLY fast. None of the ranged in WoW have anything close to super jump or fly. So there's no need for a -range debuff in WoW since ranged classes are balanced to not be able to escape from melee nearly as easily as CoH ranged classes could.
    I totally agree that the games operated under very different settings. No cast times, faster movement speed, Z-axis, etc. Differences aside, I still believe there is a place for an ability like this in WoW. Like most CC's/debuffs in the game, this would have a cooldown, diminishing returns, and players would have counters (immunity spells or trinkets.).

    If you think about it this -range debuff would work a lot like smoke bomb. It forces a player to sacrifice their distance from their target (friend or foe) and enter the smoke to be able to continue using their abilities on said friend or foe. This is a fun discussion. Let's keep this going.
    Last edited by Heywoods; 2013-06-21 at 06:24 AM.

  16. #16
    You are forgetting a very important difference between WoW and CoH that makes an ability like that viable in one, but not in the other.
    - In WoW, all ranged abilities are fixed at a specific range. All warlocks have the exact same range on all their spells as all other warlocks. All mages have the same range on all their spells as all other mages.
    - In City of Heroes, due to the way their character customization system worked, you could modify your abilities to extend beyond the base range.

    Having a "range" debuff in CoH made sense, since it was entirely possible to run into characters who "geared" specificly for extra range on their ranged abilites so they could act as snipers or super long range controllers / buffers / debuffers etc.

    Pretty much all debuffs exist to counter a buff. In WoW, a "-range" debuff doesn't really make sense, since there is no "buff" that this "debuff" would be countering.

    Now, if ranged suddenly got a new stat that granted them extra range, there might be something to talk about.

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------

    Personally, I kind of like the Mooglezs idea of a "ranged sweet spot" where damage is maximised. EvE has something similar, where every weapon has a "best effective range". Get too far out of best range and you start to lose damage or accuracy on your shots. Get in too close and you also lose accuracy (might not translate well in WoW, since EvE penalties for being too close revolve around the idea that your ships are constantly in motion).

    Biggest problem I could see with that, however, is that it would require blizzard to impliment some kind of effective range-finder / indicator to WoW, which could easily be hijacked to make bossmods even more broken.

  17. #17
    Epic! Radio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Surfd View Post
    You are forgetting a very important difference between WoW and CoH that makes an ability like that viable in one, but not in the other.
    - In WoW, all ranged abilities are fixed at a specific range. All warlocks have the exact same range on all their spells as all other warlocks. All mages have the same range on all their spells as all other mages.
    - In City of Heroes, due to the way their character customization system worked, you could modify your abilities to extend beyond the base range.

    Having a "range" debuff in CoH made sense, since it was entirely possible to run into characters who "geared" specificly for extra range on their ranged abilites so they could act as snipers or super long range controllers / buffers / debuffers etc.

    Pretty much all debuffs exist to counter a buff. In WoW, a "-range" debuff doesn't really make sense, since there is no "buff" that this "debuff" would be countering.

    Now, if ranged suddenly got a new stat that granted them extra range, there might be something to talk about.
    While not a buff, there used to be ways to increase your range:

    http://www.wowwiki.com/Hawk_Eye

  18. #18
    Smoke Bomb comes to mind.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Radio View Post
    While not a buff, there used to be ways to increase your range:

    http://www.wowwiki.com/Hawk_Eye
    True, but I am not sure that example would really count, because while it did allow you to increase your range, it was also in the days of the old "not really mandatory but might as well be mandatory and you would be a moron if you didnt take it" talent trees when evrybody took those talents anyway (because there was usually nothing else worth spending them on).

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Heywoods View Post
    Maybe, but I don't think that is the case. This hypothetical ability wouldn't reduce a caster to melee only. I mentioned in my post that the -range debuff didn't reduce a casters range to melee. An example in WoW would be ay 40 yards to 20 yards. The efficacy of the -Range debuff & how it was applied depended on the class in City of Heroes & I think the same would apply in WoW.

    Sorry if there was some confusion surrounding what this is.
    It doesn't matter how close it is, it's changing up gameplay in a negative way. Casters are not supposed to be up close by any means, and that's a given because they avoid melee classes like the plague. Their gameplay is tied to kiting and keeping distance.

    This range debuff creates gameplay that forces ranged players to find a medium due to one mechanic. Depending whether the debuff is persistent or not, it will either be treated as A: a mechanic that forces casters to stay mid-ranged or B: treated like any other cc/silence and mainly ignored.

    This isn't a mechanic that bridges distance between Melee and Ranged, this is a mechanic that potentially forces ranged to play a different style. It's not an act-react spell like if you charged, stunned or deathgripped a player. If your range is cut in half and you're forced to move closer to cast your spells, you're forced to run away or you're taking a huge risk closing the gap. This would make classes that can cast while moving or have instant casts to allow freedom of movement to excel more than anyone that has stand-and-cast spells who stays away. It's ultimately something that has a lot of factors to consider, and I don't see it being a strong mechanic to have when the game has very strongly defined rules for melee and caster combat.

    I don't think a range mechanic would be good for the fact that it impacts gameplay much too heavily.

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