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  1. #1

    Cairne, the sad and betrayed Tauren

    "Baine Bloodhoof: And for what? What did the Horde gain from such actions? Garrosh is a fool, and a betrayer. I should have killed him long ago, when he betrayed my father."

    I mean, really? Really?

    This is one of those moments I wish I never ever attempted to get into WoW lore. Because of shit like this. The whole dialogue between Vol'Jin and Baine is in the front page, and it's a pretty standard talk of "we are going to fight, oh man, and they are going to fight too, damn". Up till this part.

    The thing that grinds my gear is the fact that Garrosh never ever betrayed Cairne. Never. And this is the thing that makes me kinda nerd angry when I see it: people in forums openly hate Garrosh not even because of his actions in MoP, not for Theramore, but because he betrayed Cairne. Betrayed Cairne. Okay, so here is the story. Sit down, story time.



    After Garrosh was chosen to be the new Warchief, Cairne became increasingly aware of Garrosh behaviour. He realised that the change in the leadership can cause internal trouble and increased conflict with the Alliance, since Garrosh actions were usually violent and rash. However, Cairne bitterly accepted the change, even tho he didn't find it a good choice.

    Things changed when Cairne received a word from Hamuul. The old druid reported, that there were casualities during a peacefull meeting of Cenarion Circle - and the attackers seemed to be sent by Garrosh. Little did Hamuul know, that the attack was set up by Twilight Hammer, and in the effort to undermine the Horde, the killers made sure it seemed like it was Garroshes assault. Cairne didn't know this fact, but assuming that Hamuuls version was true, he decided to do what he found the only way out: "Mak'Gora". A duel between Garrosh and Cairne to resolve the leadership problem.

    Garrosh found it amusing that Cairne challanged him, since he didn't really realise for what reason. Feeling that rising the stakes will most likely scare the old Tauren, he said the duel will be to death - and to his suprise, Cairne accepted.

    For the duel both warriors had to wear the traditional armor (basically no armor at all), and use the weapon of their choice, blessed by a shaman before the fight. Garroshes Gorehowl was blessed by Magatha Grimtotem, a grim figure in Tauren society, who tried to undermine Cairnes leadership many times before.

    During the duel, Garrosh was suprised, and a bit scared, by Cairnes power and might. For the most part, he had to back off, fending himself from the attacks of Cairnes runespear. In the corner, he decided to use a dangerous, reckless move - he swung his axe with all his might, leaving himself exposed after the attack. It worked - Cairnes weapon was shattered to pieces, and his chest was wounded. However, the attack seemed to have a weird resoult, when Cairne collapsed on his knees after getting a small cut in the chest. Not thinking for a long time, Garrosh swung again, killing Cairne.

    The truth was, Magatha Grimtotem, while blessing Garroshes weapon, secretly poisoned it with a mixture that disabled him after stuck. Her plan was to use Garrosh as a pawn in taking Thunder Bluff for herself - and the plan somehow worked. Cairne was dead, and Magatha attacked Thunder Bluff, believing Garrosh, knowing she helped him survive the duel, will help her.

    Garrosh was not amused. Magathas poison took away his chance for a true victory or death on the ring, and made his kill unhonorable. Magatha was suprised when Garrosh replied her will all his hate, saying she is on her own now. Magathas attack was thus a failure, since Cairnes son, Baine, managed to prepare defences and push Magatha and her Grimtotem out of the Thunder Bluff.

    After the events, Garrosh, alongside with Thrall, mourned Cairnes death, believing such a warrior did not deserve a death by poison. He approached Baine, trying to find any way to mend the broken fences, and feeling that he should prepare himself for another Mak'Gora. Baine, tho, blamed Magatha for the entire event, and pledged his loyality to Garrosh. Garrosh gladly accepted, suprised by young Taurens restrain and wisdom.



    Story is over.

    "Baine Bloodhoof: And for what? What did the Horde gain from such actions? Garrosh is a fool, and a betrayer. I should have killed him long ago, when he betrayed my father."

    This one quote makes the whole point of the duel between Garrosh and Cairne completly pointless. Moreover, it absolutely retcons both the duels outcome, and Baines reaction. The word "betrayal" is extremly improper here. Draw your own conclusions, basing on the story from the "Shattering" novel.

    Young and wise Tauren, previously sadly accepting the fact, that it was his father who requested the duel, and Magatha who staged his death, now believes Garrosh is the only one to blame. Baine, who was the one who threw away the nonsensical endless circle of vengeance, and decided another Mak'Gora would only make things even worse - now openly says he should have killed him back then, when ashamed Garrosh in pathetic manner tried to apologise for the loss that couldnt be undone.

    Sorry for the rant, if you find it too long. But this one thing makes me cringe every time I see it. Hatred towards Garrosh based on this particular event. And seeing how Blizzard made Baine say those words, it seems I was the one who was wrong. Nothing is forbidden, everything can be retconned.

  2. #2
    The Insane
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    It's the PTR - ergo subject to change. Remember when 5.3 was on the PTR, and the Alliance players got offended by Vol'jin's speech? Boom, suddenly another speech option was implemented, or how about the whole MoP Beta "Ji Firepaw = Sexual Harrasment Panda" case eh?... Things change.
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  3. #3
    Moderator chazus's Avatar
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    I think it's the point that Garrosh still killed Cairne. Was he wounded? Yes. Disabled? Yes. The poison didn't kill him though, Garrosh did. It's more a case of Garrosh being an incompetent dueler, than a betrayer, if anything. But to anyone intimately involved (Baine), that could easily be construed as betrayal. Which.. is strange for players (who can see beyond fictional plot) to be upset over.
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  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by chazus View Post
    I think it's the point that Garrosh still killed Cairne. Was he wounded? Yes. Disabled? Yes. The poison didn't kill him though, Garrosh did. It's more a case of Garrosh being an incompetent dueler, than a betrayer, if anything. But to anyone intimately involved (Baine), that could easily be construed as betrayal. Which.. is strange for players (who can see beyond fictional plot) to be upset over.
    It was a duel to the death. Cairne knew, what he was getting into.
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  5. #5
    It's the 'when he betrayed my father' part that stands out. Sure, Garrosh could be a betrayer of many number of things, but that was one incident where it wasn't his fault. Cairne wanted to fight just as much as Garrosh did. Garrosh did nothing to betray Cairne, so it should not be there at all. This is very much a Redshirt moment.

  6. #6
    Blizzard got their own lore wrong? You dont say?

  7. #7
    A young tauren speaking recklessly under the pressure of the event that is to come. It may be that Blizzard simply forgot, or didn't consider it, or a large number of other things, but I took it as that.

  8. #8
    Herald of the Titans CosmicGuitars's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jiggler View Post
    It was a duel to the death. Cairne knew, what he was getting into.
    Not only did Cairne know what he was getting into, he was the one who challenged Garrosh.

  9. #9
    Old God Frozenbeef's Avatar
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    Reading it made me cringe...garrosh did nothing wrong in relation to cairne! >.<

    I really hope they change it because having an error that large in the story will just put me right off from being interested in what happens in the future

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Okacz View Post
    Young and wise Tauren, previously sadly accepting the fact, that it was his father who requested the duel, and Magatha who staged his death, now believes Garrosh is the only one to blame.
    Nowhere does Baine state that Garrosh is solely to blame. He is fully aware of Magatha Grimtotem's role in what occurred and holds her responsible for the death of his father as well. We get a small taste of his hatred for the Grimtotem in the tauren starting zone in Mulgore. However, he also knows it was Garrosh's attitude that spurned Cairne to duel and Garrosh's weapon and strike that ended Cairne's life. After everything that Cairne had done in building and shaping the Horde ideals and beliefs, Garrosh's brash outlook that forced Cairne to challenge him to honorable combat. This led to his death.

    You have to remember also that Baine is Cairne's son. Regardless of what actually transpired between Garrosh and Cairne, Baine would want ANYONE involved in his father's death to be brought to justice. Garrosh, regardless of circumstance, is the one who ended Cairne's life. Garrosh is the one who took his father from him. It is only natural that he would seek revenge. In his mind, Garrosh betrayed his father by killing him. We know what happened, he knows what happened, but he still wants justice against the orc who killed his father. Understandable I think.

    Garrosh is responsible for Cairne's death just like Magatha Grimtotem. As an alliance player, I really liked Cairne. Killing Garrosh will be a step towards justice. Killing Magatha (hopefully some day) will be another.

    Blizzard is in no way shifting all of the blame over. They are simply reminding Horde players that Garrosh had a hand in Cairne's death to give the Horde player's extra motivation to want to kill Garrosh. It is that emotional connection, that sense of meting out justice, that will make this a terrific raid. That feeling was missing in DS.
    Last edited by Sills; 2013-06-21 at 09:29 AM.

  11. #11
    The Patient Shanxys's Avatar
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    Cows got it rough... Baines battle cry in SoO could be a loud Moo.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Sills View Post
    Nowhere does Baine state that Garrosh is solely to blame. He is fully aware of Magatha Grimtotem's role in what occurred and holds her responsible for the death of his father as well. We get a small taste of his hatred for the Grimtotem in the tauren starting zone in Mulgore. However, he also knows it was Garrosh's attitude that spurned Cairne to duel and Garrosh's weapon and strike that ended Cairne's life. After everything that Cairne had done in building and shaping the Horde ideals and beliefs, Garrosh's brash outlook that forced Cairne to challenge him to honorable combat. This led to his death.

    You have to remember also that Baine is Cairne's son. Regardless of what actually transpired between Garrosh and Cairne, Baine would want ANYONE involved in his father's death to be brought to justice. Garrosh, regardless of circumstance, is the one who ended Cairne's life. Garrosh is the one who took his father from him. It is only natural that he would seek revenge. In his mind, Garrosh betrayed his father by killing him. We know what happened, he knows what happened, but he still wants justice against the orc who killed his father. Understandable I think.

    Garrosh is responsible for Cairne's death just like Magatha Grimtotem. As an alliance player, I really liked Cairne. Killing Garrosh will be a step towards justice. Killing Magatha (hopefully some day) will be another.

    Blizzard is in no way shifting all of the blame over. They are simply reminding Horde players that Garrosh had a hand in Cairne's death to give the Horde player's extra motivation to want to kill Garrosh. It is that emotional connection, that sense of meting out justice, that will make this a terrific raid. That feeling was missing in DS.
    You're completely missing the point. There is no problem with Baine blaming Garrosh for Cairne's death. But the word "betrayed" is idiotic in this context.

  13. #13
    Epic! Duncanîdaho's Avatar
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    I think you have to kind of put things in perspective. With all the things Garrosh has done lately, and plans to do still, do you think Baine still believes Garrosh wasn't playing him back then either? Garrosh's tactics at Theramore show how deceptive he can be. I realize Garrosh didn't actually betray Cairne. But Baine is probably looking back now on that whole situation now with everything that's happened recently and wondering if he and his dad got played.

    That or its possibly wrong and most likely will be changed like people are saying.
    Last edited by Duncanîdaho; 2013-06-21 at 09:44 AM.
    The generalist looks outward; he looks for living principles, knowing full well that such principles change, that they develop. It is to the characteristics of change itself that the mentat-generalist must look. There can be no permanent catalogue of such change, no handbook or manual. You must look at it with as few preconceptions as possible, asking yourself, "Now what is this thing doing?" -Children of Dune

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Gordon View Post
    You're completely missing the point. There is no problem with Baine blaming Garrosh for Cairne's death. But the word "betrayed" is idiotic in this context.
    I have missed nothing. I guess I didnt make my point clear enough. I'll try to elaborate a bit.

    Cairne helped form and shape the Horde. He was one of its founding leaders. He upheld and led the natural, tribal spirit that the Horde initially represented. To Baine, his son, when Garrosh killed Cairne it was symbolic in that he killed that spiritual essence of the Horde. Garrosh betrayed the very founding ideals of the Horde by killing the one person (tauren w/e) who truly embodied them.

    We have seen this shift continue to play out on the grandest of scales. An attempt at the global Horde domination Garrosh craves. Ever since Garrosh was handed control of the Horde, and Cairne and Thrall have exited the picture, Garrosh has shifted the Horde from the tribal, spiritual foundations of its past to the barbaric, ferocious history it once embodied. The day the Horde changed, the day its principles were betrayed was the day Garrosh killed Cairne.

    I am not saying that I agree with what Baine is saying. However, if I interpret events as I have listed, I can understand where he is coming from. I highly doubt this dialogue is a mistake from Blizzard. I also do not think it is a ret con. I just think it is a son's way of looking at his father's death. As a betrayal of the Horde.

  15. #15
    Elemental Lord Combatbulter's Avatar
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    It is all about perspective, from Baine's personal view Garrosh betrayed his father, I konw from an objective point of view Garrosh didn't actually betray him, but Baine is not objective.
    He who sees his own doom can better avoid its path. He who sees the doom of others can deliver it.

  16. #16
    The Lightbringer Zuben's Avatar
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    I cringed too. Hope they change it before the patch goes live.
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  17. #17
    This is crap. Blizzard forces hate for Garrosh down our throats. Stop spreading lies Metzen! Your precious Mary Sue will die sooner or later.
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  18. #18
    I am Murloc! Arrashi's Avatar
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    I myself find it amusing. Blizzard wants us to have garrosh so hard, they made many "good" characters appear as deluded morons. And i like it. Sanity is for weak.

  19. #19
    The Insane
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zepp View Post
    This is crap. Blizzard forces hate for Garrosh down our throats. Stop spreading lies Metzen! Your precious Mary Sue will die sooner or later.
    1: The whole point of Garrosh was that we should hate him. 2: Learn what a Mary Sue is.
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  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    It is all about perspective, from Baine's personal view Garrosh betrayed his father, I konw from an objective point of view Garrosh didn't actually betray him, but Baine is not objective.
    But he seemed to be quite objective before in the novel. What changed ?

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