Cairne, the sad and betrayed Tauren

[Deleted]

I agree 100% with OP if you read The Shattering you'd know that Cairne's death was entirely his fault as much as I loved the big guy (just as an f.y.i it pisses me off to this day that he didn't get an in-game send off.) And I don't know what Baine is even talking about in killing Garrosh, he'd probably get fucking wrecked by Garrosh 1 on 1 anyway.

[Dreknar20]

I agree 100% with OP if you read The Shattering you'd know that Cairne's death was entirely his fault as much as I loved the big guy (just as an f.y.i it pisses me off to this day that he didn't get an in-game send off.).

there was a small in-game thing related to Cainre, believe it was from one of the world events
Yeah the Children/Orphan week has you taking some kid to see Cairne's funeral

[chrisisvacant]

From the Shattering, Baine's PoV



Doesn't matter what he knows, doesn't matter what he felt before. He even explains before that he's not sure if Garrosh was really in on it or not, but he resolves it all by believing it was Magatha's ploy all along. Magatha never disputed it, while Garrosh came clean from it saying the act also dishonoured himself. In the end, Baine was correct in his beliefs and everything was resolved.

Which brings in the confusion of why Baine is suddenly bringing this shit up again as if it's Garrosh's fault... I can only see it if it was meant to be an insult, but the Shattering tied off every tidbit as painting Magatha as the definitive traitor, with every party agreeing that this was what happened. There were no loose ends around that made it sound like he was still skeptical of Garrosh having betrayed his father.

---------- Post added 2013-06-21 at 11:15 PM ----------



He was the Warchief. The Warchief IS the Horde. It was the Horde when Blackfang ruled with the help of Warlocks. It was the Horde when Doomhammer took control and brought in the Forest Trolls, Goblins and Ogres. It's not a democracy, and Garrosh leads by example.

Baine says he betrayed his father. Not the Horde. Not his people. Not him. His father. Deciding the duel to be to the death is not betrayal. It's fully in his right and decision to choose what manner his challenge is fought in.

Actually, the Horde (as Thrall has guided it) is a democracy. The founders of the New Horde (Thrall, Vol'jin, Cairne) absolutely treat it as such. And Thrall expected Garrosh to lead the Horde in his example. Sorry, this is not Doomhammer or Blackfang's Horde.

His father was betrayed because Garrosh betrayed the Horde. He turned against the core tenets of the New Horde as told to him by Thrall. And he was killed. This is betrayal whether you want to accept it or not.

[Aquamonkey]

Actually, the Horde (as Thrall has guided it) is a democracy. The founders of the New Horde (Thrall, Vol'jin, Cairne) absolutely treat it as such. And Thrall expected Garrosh to lead the Horde in his example. Sorry, this is not Doomhammer or Blackfang's Horde.

His father was betrayed because Garrosh betrayed the Horde. He turned against the core tenets of the New Horde as told to him by Thrall. And he was killed. This is betrayal whether you want to accept it or not.

Actually, Blackhand was the only Warchief to be elected democratically (by the orc chieftains).

Thrall was never elected, he took over the role after Doomhammer died (who took it from Blackhand by force). He then gave the position to Garrosh.

[Combatbutler]

Actually, the Horde (as Thrall has guided it) is a democracy. The founders of the New Horde (Thrall, Vol'jin, Cairne) absolutely treat it as such. And Thrall expected Garrosh to lead the Horde in his example. Sorry, this is not Doomhammer or Blackfang's Horde.

His father was betrayed because Garrosh betrayed the Horde. He turned against the core tenets of the New Horde as told to him by Thrall. And he was killed. This is betrayal whether you want to accept it or not.

The horde is no democracy, the Warchief rules all. Thrall never used this power, Garrosh on the other hand does.

Lok'tar ogar! Victory or death - it is these words that bind me to the Horde. For they are the most sacred and fundamental of truths to any warrior of the Horde.
I give my flesh and blood freely to the Warchief. I am the instrument of my Warchief's desire. I am a weapon of my Warchief's command.
From this moment until the end of days I live and die - For the Horde!

Actually, Blackhand was elected democratically by the orc chieftains.

Funny and he was the only elected warchief ;P

Doomhammer took the title by force
Thrall got it through succession, he was second in command after all
Garrosh was appointed.

[chrisisvacant]

The horde is no democracy, the Warchief rules all. Thrall never used this power, Garrosh on the other hand does.

Actually, since the Warchief -is the Horde-, you are wrong. Thrall reshaped the Horde in his image. Sorry.

[Combatbutler]

Actually, since the Warchief -is the Horde-, you are wrong. Thrall reshaped the Horde in his image. Sorry.

That would have applied if Thrall had stayed Warchief, but he didn't Garrosh became Warchief and his word is law. Period. It is the very foundation of the Horde. Warchief > all.

[Aquamonkey]

Lok'tar ogar! Victory or death - it is these words that bind me to the Horde. For they are the most sacred and fundamental of truths to any warrior of the Horde.
I give my flesh and blood freely to the Warchief. I am the instrument of my Warchief's desire. I am a weapon of my Warchief's command.
From this moment until the end of days I live and die - For the Horde!

That oath specifically mentions warriors of the Horde. I wonder how civilians fit in. Does everyone have to take the oath or just combatants?

[Thimagryn]

Thrall was not democratically elected. His rank was bestowed upon him by Doomhammer. That's not how democracy works. The Horde takes military standards and applies it to all aspects of their society. This is what the Horde is and always has been, whether in times of peace or war. Just because Thrall is open minded and benevolent doesn't change the way the Horde is governed.

[Combatbutler]

That oath specifically mentions warriors of the Horde. I wonder how civilians fit in. Does everyone have to take the oath or just fighters?

Since the racial leaders swear the oath, they are more or less generals after all, the civilians would be indirectly his subjects as well. Well the horde was designed to be a warmachine and as such it is naturally lacking in the civilian department.

[Xisa]

The Betrayal is the fact that Garrosh has destroyed everything the Horde that his father founded stood for, willing and violently.

It's an absolute betrayal, and I think it makes sense.

[Velshin]

The Betrayal is the fact that Garrosh has destroyed everything the Horde that his father founded stood for, willing and violently.

It's an absolute betrayal, and I think it makes sense.

Indeed and now Baine regretting not killing him back then when Garrosh offered him a chance to duel him in Mak'gora. The main reason Baine refused to duel him back then because he was thinking by doing it will divide the Horde and weaken it but now Garrosh is tearing the new Horde apart.

[Dreknar20]

Actually, the Horde (as Thrall has guided it) is a democracy. The founders of the New Horde (Thrall, Vol'jin, Cairne) absolutely treat it as such. And Thrall expected Garrosh to lead the Horde in his example. Sorry, this is not Doomhammer or Blackfang's Horde.

Horde has never been a democracy. The Warchief wields ultimate political power. What they command, the Horde does.
Pretty much similar to a king, what they say goes, if you dont like it you can either convince them otherwise or suck it up

[lazypeon100]

Agreeing with others on this one, the Horde is, and never has been, a democracy. It has always been a dictatorship (the oath that involves swearing yourself to the warchief for example). The warchief's word is and always has been law. Thrall could have used this if he felt like it, but thrall is, for the most part, wise enough to heed the word of others and allow people to be mostly free.

Just because he didn't treat it like a dictatorship doesn't mean it isn't based on how the Horde laws and power structure works. Garrosh however most certainly treats it like a dictatorship. And he abuses the crap out of that power. He isn't an effective leader though because he pretty much pissed off all of his allies and the rest of the world essentially.

But OT, really they should try to clean this up more, or at least elaborate more to make it make more sense. As it is right now, it could work but there's a sudden jerk in Baine's character to make it fit right. There needs to be some kind of explanation, or just remove it.

[Velshin]

Agreeing with others on this one, the Horde is, and never has been, a democracy. It has always been a dictatorship (the oath that involves swearing yourself to the warchief for example). The warchief's word is and always has been law. Thrall could have used this if he felt like it, but thrall is, for the most part, wise enough to heed the word of others and allow people to be mostly free.

Just because he didn't treat it like a dictatorship doesn't mean it isn't based on how the Horde laws and power structure works. Garrosh however most certainly treats it like a dictatorship. And he abuses the crap out of that power. He isn't an effective leader though because he pretty much pissed off all of his allies and the rest of the world essentially.

But OT, really they should try to clean this up more, or at least elaborate more to make it make more sense. As it is right now, it could work but there's a sudden jerk in Baine's character to make it fit right. There needs to be some kind of explanation, or just remove it.

That is why maybe after the end of Garrosh reign the mantle Warchief will be gone forever and the Horde will create a new era that doesn't have such dictatorship system. Because let us be honest up until now the Warchief title is like a curse whoever get it is destined to have grim fate....Blackhand, Doomhammer, and now Garrosh. Maybe fate saved Thrall from that grim destiny shared by all the other Warchiefs which is why he quited being a Warchief.

[Dreknar20]

Maybe fate saved Thrall from that grim destiny shared by all the other Warchiefs which is why he quited being a Warchief.

being a Warchief is no different from being a king, dictator, or a high priestess or whatever

[Velshin]

being a Warchief is no different from being a king, dictator, or a high priestess or whatever

Yeah but what I meant is it's like a bad karma or curse whoever bear the title Warchief look at the pattern of all of the previous Warchiefs other than Thrall of course.

All of them ended up with grim brutal death. That's what makes me think maybe after Garrosh death there will be no more Warchief mantle.

[Dreknar20]

All of them ended up with grim brutal death. That's what makes me think maybe after Garrosh death there will be no more Warchief mantle.

Well Azeroth is a grim and brutal world...........
Besides that what, a council? Thats not anymore or less effective than a monarchy/dictatorship is, it has its own host of potential issues

[Aquamonkey]

Yeah but what I meant is it's like a bad karma or curse whoever bear the title Warchief look at the pattern of all of the previous Warchiefs other than Thrall of course.

All of them ended up with grim brutal death. That's what makes me think maybe after Garrosh death there will be no more Warchief mantle.

Maybe it had more to do with them being violent warmongers...

[chrisisvacant]

Horde has never been a democracy. The Warchief wields ultimate political power. What they command, the Horde does.
Pretty much similar to a king, what they say goes, if you dont like it you can either convince them otherwise or suck it up

It's closer to a democracy than you think as we are about to depose this king you talk about.

---------- Post added 2013-06-23 at 03:25 AM ----------

That would have applied if Thrall had stayed Warchief, but he didn't Garrosh became Warchief and his word is law. Period. It is the very foundation of the Horde. Warchief > all.

I'm sorry you feel that way. It just isn't actually true. And we see this in the game and in the lore. The Warchief can be opposed and those powers can remove him.