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  1. #281
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zaelsino View Post
    That comes up short when you consider Baine does have this knowledge though.
    Maybe I'm remembering this wrong but didn't Baine's "knowledge" of what happened come from Garrosh when he confronted him about it? How much weight is the word of Garrosh supposed to have to him at this point?
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  2. #282
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    Garrosh is a dumb ass and should have never let someone someone touch his weapon.

    Also you did not mention the water problem.
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  3. #283
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    Quote Originally Posted by leaks View Post
    Maybe I'm remembering this wrong but didn't Baine's "knowledge" of what happened come from Garrosh when he confronted him about it? How much weight is the word of Garrosh supposed to have to him at this point?
    This is how I remember it. I thought Baine's only story of what went down came from Garrosh and Baine blamed Garrosh for making it a fight to the death, even though yes Cairne did accept it, but Garrosh was the one who put it out there. When he said Garrosh betrayed Cairne I also took that to mean Garrosh betrayed Cairne's vision of the Horde and what he helped shape the Horde into and Garrosh's recklessness was starting to and eventually did undermine it.

  4. #284
    Quote Originally Posted by apepi View Post
    Garrosh is a dumb ass and should have never let someone someone touch his weapon.
    Except it was part of the ritual for Mak'gora. Garrosh didn't have a choice of it being done, but he could have picked a different shaman.
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    ´So.. sorry to bring this up but..you know that .."thing" (Med'an).. is that "thing" cannon still?
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  5. #285
    Quote Originally Posted by leaks View Post
    Maybe I'm remembering this wrong but didn't Baine's "knowledge" of what happened come from Garrosh when he confronted him about it? How much weight is the word of Garrosh supposed to have to him at this point?
    The information came from Stormsong Grimtotem, the one that helped Baine take back Thunderbluff and the current leader of the Grimtotem Horde sympathizers. Stormsong explained to Baine of Cairne's death, the challenge, and the betrayal at the hands of Magatha. Everything he learned is from this one meeting. Baine later contemplates these events in his meeting with Jaina and Anduin after Thunderbluff is taken by Magatha, and he has doubts whether Garrosh was in on it or not.

    When he confronts Magatha, he concludes that it was her plan and that Garrosh was her pawn. Magatha does not speak out against the accusation. Baine confronts Garrosh with his theory, and Garrosh admits that he had no part in the poisoning, explaining that it was a blow to his own honor. Baine still has some harsh words towards Garrosh, saying he won't fight him because enough people have died, and that he still supports the Horde and recognizes him as Warchief.

  6. #286
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    Except it was part of the ritual for Mak'gora. Garrosh didn't have a choice of it being done, but he could have picked a different shaman.
    The whole mak'gora was a Byronic tragedy. Garrosh is proud of where he comes from, but the situation in Garadar means he didn't really know the finer details like Cairne did. He had no idea what the ritual oils used to bless the blade were supposed to look and smell like, and he was so focused on running Orgrimmar, and so ignorant of the tauren political situation, that he figured Magatha was an example of tauren who knew where their loyalties lay.

    And now, he's going to go his whole life never knowing if he was actually good enough to beat Cairne fair, or if Magatha's poison did all the metaphorical heavy lifting.

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  7. #287
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    Quote Originally Posted by artemishunter1 View Post
    Keep this detail in mind. Duel was not to the death when Cairne requested it. Garrosh changed the rule infront of other people. Forcing Cairne either to look weak and coward among his peers or accept the change in rule. Basicly, Garrosh backed Cairne into a corner through politics. Baine feels this is the betrayal as his father did not have any intention of killing Garrosh, only challanged him for good of the horde, and only accepted the rule change because of Garrosh's politics.

    In fact Cairne was happy when Garrosh told him to the death. Garrosh was super surprised when he heard Cairne laughing happily accepting Garrosh term (the old ways Mak'gora to the death) to the death.

  8. #288
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    Quote Originally Posted by Callei View Post
    he was so focused on running Orgrimmar, and so ignorant of the tauren political situation, that he figured Magatha was an example of tauren who knew where their loyalties lay.
    I'm pretty sure that Garrosh knew about Magatha stand, like the fact that her Grimtotem tribe never officially joined the Horde, and that she constantly opposed Cairne. The only reason for which Garrosh trusted Magatha was because she tricked him and litterally bought his favor by saying that Garrosh was the kind of Warchief that her tribe waited.

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-25 at 05:56 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Thimagryn View Post
    Garrosh in MoP has been removed of honor.
    For say that Garrosh has been removed of honor in MoP, you would have to say that now he "changed" his views and think that honor doesn't matter anymore. But this is simply untrue, and there is in-game evidence for this now. I don't know if you heard the 5.4 sound files, so......SPOILER ALERT.......................................but Garrosh use statements like these:

    "Do you remember nothing of honor, of glory on the battlefield? You would parlay with the humans, who have allowed warlocks practice their dark magic right under our feet.(...) We are the orcish Horde, the true Horde. We die bloody and thrashing on the field of battle, like true orcs should."

    and indeed when he kills you say:

    "Die with honor!"

    All of this said NOW, after all the actions he commited in a pretty "dishonorable" way.

    So which is for you the most logical assumption, that Garrosh forsook his honor in MoP, or that his whole concept of honor has always been a bit...lacking?
    Last edited by Zulkhan; 2013-06-25 at 06:14 PM.

  9. #289
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zulkhan View Post
    I'm pretty sure that Garrosh knew about Magatha stand, like the fact that her Grimtotem tribe never officially joined the Horde, and that she constantly opposed Cairne. The only reason for which Garrosh trusted Magatha was because she tricked him and litterally bought his favor by saying that Garrosh was the kind of Warchief that her tribe waited.

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-25 at 05:56 PM ----------



    For say that Garrosh has been removed of honor in MoP, you would have to say that now he "changed" his views and think that honor doesn't matter anymore. But this is simply untrue, and there is in-game evidence for this now. I don't know if you heard the 5.4 sound files, so......SPOILER ALERT.......................................but Garrosh use statements like these:

    "Do you remember nothing of honor, of glory on the battlefield? You would parlay with the humans, who have allowed warlocks practice their dark magic right under our feet.(...) We are the orcish Horde, the true Horde. We die bloody and thrashing on the field of battle, like true orcs should.

    and indeed when he kills you say:

    "Die with honor!"

    All of this said NOW, after all the actions he commited in a pretty "dishonorable" way.

    So which is for you the more logical assumption, that Garrosh forsook his honor in MoP, or that his whole concept of honor has always been a bit...lacking?

    While I agree with you with most of what you said but I just wanna say something:

    Just because Garrosh use the word honor in his speech in 5.4 doesn't mean he is truely honorable at all he can use this word to his advantege but that doesnt mean he really means geniune honor. What I'm trying to say people can lie and stuff just like real life.

  10. #290
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    Quote Originally Posted by Velshin View Post
    While I agree with you with most of what you said but I just wanna say something:

    Just because Garrosh use the word honor in his speech in 5.4 doesn't mean he is truely honorable at all he can use this word to his advantege but that doesnt mean he really means geniune honor. What I'm trying to say people can lie and stuff just like real life.
    His is not genuine honor. But this is the concept of honor he have, and nothing happened in Garrosh's life bring on the table the fact that he had a higher level of it before. So for this I'm more than sure that he is sincere, because this is what honor is for him.

  11. #291
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zulkhan View Post
    His is not genuine honor. But this is the concept of honor he have, and nothing happened in Garrosh's life bring on the table the fact that he had a higher level of it before. So for this I'm more than sure that he is sincere, because this is what honor is for him.
    Yeah but he can also use the word for his advantege. For example in real life there are some people who use the word of God and religion and pretend that they are awesome saint religion just to get either power or position but in reality they are bastard and not even close to be a true saint but yeah I got what you mean it can go both ways.

  12. #292
    Quote Originally Posted by Florena View Post
    He has the knowledge but is letting his anger and regret get the better of him.
    That is completely unlike the character, though. And that's bad characterization, which goes hand in hand with bad writing overall.

    Baine has always been the temperate, the cool-headed one. He may be getting worked up by how the rebellion is going, but when he knows what the facts are... I don't see him making this sort of slip.

    I would have rather seen him say "Betrayed my father's memory" or "Betrayed my father's vision for the Horde" ... much more accurate.

  13. #293
    Quote Originally Posted by Zulkhan View Post
    So which is for you the most logical assumption, that Garrosh forsook his honor in MoP, or that his whole concept of honor has always been a bit...lacking?
    The logical assumption is bad writing. It's not a hollow sense of honor, it's a confused characterization of Garrosh because it's not believable that this character has any strong morals or ideals that he adheres to. He flip-flops and ignores actions he does himself yet berates others for not fighting honorably?

    I don't see it as hollow as much as I see it as downright disregarded. He can spout it out as much as he wants, but the way he has been written so far has been very confused. Usually with good villains, there is one redeeming characteristic that we can empathize with. Garrosh lacks this in his character because he's ignored the one thing that makes him interesting, his honor. This simply makes him delusional. His honor is not there because he's delusional.

  14. #294
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thimagryn View Post
    The logical assumption is bad writing. It's not a hollow sense of honor, it's a confused characterization of Garrosh because it's not believable that this character has any strong morals or ideals that he adheres to. He flip-flops and ignores actions he does himself yet berates others for not fighting honorably?
    The bad writing is a shitty excuse that don't have any kind of logical foundation anymore, people that continue to use it is just people that stubbornly blind themselves and refuse to accept things for what they are. It is not Garrosh's characterization to be confused, the only one confused here is you.
    You clearly lack the whole understanding of the word honor that is intended in Warcraft, and intended even in other contexts, and if you would truly understand it, you would easily understand that Garrosh never showed actions of true honor in his entire life, because he never understood it, and this is the reason for which he doesn't see as dishonorable particular acts that became "necessary" as the circumstances required them.

    He never had morals, and never will have. He now talks of honor like he always valued it, glory in battle, dying like true warriors of the Horde against a hated enemy in the battleflied, THIS is what honor is for Garrosh, and this is always the kind of honor of which he talked all along. And there are no strong morals, nor ideals behind it. Only pride, glory, vanity, exhibisionism. There is nothing apart this. How can't you see how much shallow is this vision? Can you bring me proves, sources, links, quotes that Garrosh talked of honor in a different way apart this? He always talk of HIS honor, he always put his selfish desire of looking honorable before others, like the situation with Magatha blatantly proved.

    Not being a genocidial monster doesn't mean be honorable. This is what so much people fail to understand, or simply refuse to understand because they love Garrosh too much. Garrosh, before Cataclysm, never showed which kind of understanding of the word honor had, except in Heart of War where was clear that Garrosh bashed Blackscar only because he was put under a massive pressure by Thrall and Saurfang. And in Northrend, Garrosh says something lovable like that even the children of the enemy are not innocents, because they will grow up and take arms against you. So, seriously, the Garrosh in Northrend it is not even able to understand by himself that you cannot consider the children of your enemy something to put down. What. Da. Fuck.

    And this is the only thing he learned by Saurfang, and the sole fact that he had to learn such a thing in the first place is scary. And he proudly shows this "lesson" in Stonetalon, "killing innocents and children is bad, regardless of the situation", bashing his general for have done this, but actually more preoccupied that the good image of his loved race and of Garrosh himself ("Am I a murderer Krom'gar?") would have been horribly stained if he wouldn't have intervened. Ofcourse you cannot seriously think that Garrosh stepped up out of mercy, and not just because one of his own generals did a lot of embarassing shit and he had to clean up.

    The matter with Magatha is even more blatant, when Eitrigg said to Garrosh that because of his foolishness now Thunder Bluff was under siege, with countless tauren brutally murdered in sleep, the immediate response of Garrosh has been something like "the bitch stole MY honor, MY honorable combat!!!" so basically don't giving a fuck about what Eitrigg said, all preoccupied of his "honor", not that the whole situation caused a gigantic mess, causing the death of innocent people allied with the orcs.
    And in fact, all that Garrosh did was sending a pissed letter to Magatha, that at least proved to not be a complete idiot (yeah, because deciding to help Magatha after discovering that she used you like a puppet would have been retarded) but continuing to not give a fuck about the whole situation, he did nothing for support Baine against Magatha, just waited until the mess was resolved (not thanks to him) with Baine forced to ask help even to Jaina, a freaking Alliance leader, because Garrosh slept on his ass. He showed concern only about his honor, that was inevitably tainted, and nothing else. Pure selfishness.

    About Sylvanas, how can you call that "honor"? He was just worried that Sylvanas would not become a threat instead of an ally to be used, since he knew very well what happened in the Wrathgate and didn't want that to be repeated again, plus his "disgust" for what the Valk'yr did is said in a manner that stank of bigotry. And in the end Garrosh didn't make so much efforts for be sure that Sylvanas wouldn't have used the plague in Southshore and Gilneas, while he was absurdly angered about it in Sylvanas's short story, simply because, in the second case, he had to put his face on the matter, and his own orc soldiers were involved there; for this he didn't want to use the plague because was "dishonorable", still he was eager to use the Forsaken, his supposed allies, as utter cannon fodder, pure meat shields for let the orcs invade Gilneas all fresh and rested, in all their shining glory. Where da fuck is the "honor" in that? Is what he did there so better of what he did to blood elves in the 5.1? I don't think so.

    Garrosh never acted honorably in Cataclysm, but simply struggled, with a lot of effort, to not cross the line between a tough leader and a ruthless one. And that couldn't last forever. And:

    Usually with good villains, there is one redeeming characteristic that we can empathize with
    Nope, these are called fallen heroes, tragic villains or anti-heroes. Not all villains have to be sympathetic or have reedemable qualities. Some villains simply go down, giving that shallow delusion that something good is in them, but in fact they are destinied to finish bad and with no chance of redemption. Do you have an idea of how Lex Luthor was developed in the Smallville saga? The concept is vaguely the same.
    Last edited by Zulkhan; 2013-06-25 at 11:57 PM.

  15. #295
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    Quote Originally Posted by Velshin View Post
    In fact Cairne was happy when Garrosh told him to the death. Garrosh was super surprised when he heard Cairne laughing happily accepting Garrosh term (the old ways Mak'gora to the death) to the death.
    he wsnt exactly super happy

    Cairne had a twinge of guilt during the duel about how the death of Garrosh would be a loss of a great warrior if nothing else.
    Similar to how Garrosh felt guilt over being the one who killed Cairne

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-26 at 12:00 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Zulkhan View Post
    So which is for you the most logical assumption, that Garrosh forsook his honor in MoP, or that his whole concept of honor has always been a bit...lacking?
    It wasent always lacking, back in the day he felt pretty strongly of how "real" warrios should engage in combat
    Strongly enough that he bitched at certain other characters over it and even killed others over it

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-26 at 12:02 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Velshin View Post
    Just because Garrosh use the word honor in his speech in 5.4 doesn't mean he is truely honorable at all he can use this word to his advantege but that doesnt mean he really means geniune honor. What I'm trying to say people can lie and stuff just like real life.
    Thats the thing though. What exactly is "geniune" honor? There is no universal sense in the word, it varies in meaning from person to person, from culture to culture.
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  16. #296
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreknar20 View Post
    he wsnt exactly super happy

    Cairne had a twinge of guilt during the duel about how the death of Garrosh would be a loss of a great warrior if nothing else.
    Similar to how Garrosh felt guilt over being the one who killed Cairne

    That's true afterward he felt that guilt in fact that guilt gave Garrosh the chance to get a desperate attack on Cairne. But what I meant is before that when he came to Garrosh and backhand him to the ground that conversation in fact he was happy and will gladly take on Garrosh to the death which surprised Garrosh.

    Will link you here:

    I'm in charge of the horde now, and I say I will accept your challenge of the mak'gora the old mak'gora. The way i once was, with all the old rules. All of them.

    Cairne's eyes narrowed. "To the death, then?"

    Garrosh grinned. "To the death. Perhaps now you will apologize."

    Cairne stared for a moment longer, then threw back his head and laughed. That caught Garrosh by surprised.

  17. #297
    Quote Originally Posted by Zulkhan View Post
    The bad writing is a shitty excuse that don't have any kind of logical foundation anymore
    It has tons of relevance when you consider the inconsistencies. To say he never had honor is a biased perspective which you are using to try to persuade the argument, but you're ignoring that Garrosh had values that he maintained. This was pretty clearly shown with his confrontation with Krom'gar in Cataclysm.

    At what point was it okay for him to destroy Theramore? To cripple Anduin? To set assassins on Vol'jin and Baine? It's uncharacteristic of him to a grand scale. And this is my main point - He lacks character, and that's what makes him uninteresting. And what do I associate with uninteresting characters? I fault the writing that characterizes him.

    Right now, his story stinks of 'Old Gods did it'. It's a cliche that's frankly overused in the WoW universe. Dave Kosak says he's not corrupted and that he's totally in control? That makes the situation even WORSE, knowing he's acting stupid for absolutely no reason.
    Last edited by Thimagryn; 2013-06-26 at 12:46 AM.

  18. #298
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thimagryn View Post
    It has tons of relevance when you consider the inconsistencies. To say he never had honor is a biased perspective which you are using to try to persuade the argument, but you're ignoring that Garrosh had values that he maintained. This was pretty clearly shown with his confrontation with Krom'gar in Cataclysm.

    At what point was it okay for him to destroy Theramore? To cripple Anduin? To set assassins on Vol'jin and Baine? It's uncharacteristic of him to a grand scale. And this is my main point - He lacks character, and that's what makes him uninteresting. And what do I associate with uninteresting characters? I fault the writing that characterizes him.

    you know what is your problem to be honest? that you are judging Garrosh character by his exception rare actions such as the Stonetalon mountains questline and Silverpine forest with Sylvanas.....and yet ignored every unhonorable actions he did like: Killing defenseless Alliance boat fleet soldiers that has 0 threat to them just for the sake of being Alliance and left one alive not for the sake of mercy but to send a message to Varian. Mocking his Warchief and his savior (the same guy who saved him from his emo depressing moments in Nagrand), was willing to kill alliance children just for the sake of being alliance and that they will grow up and take arms against him, Not slaying magatha after knowing that she is the one who stole his honorable duel with Cairne.......need I go on?

    That's the main problem with some people who defend Garrosh they just cling to these two rare exceptions actions of Garrosh and made it like he is always been like that and this the real Garrosh personality which is completly wrong.
    Last edited by Velshin; 2013-06-26 at 01:04 AM.

  19. #299
    The Alliance and the Horde are at war, and Garrosh has always taken a heavy stance on acting against the enemy. Is this the same as murder and killing women and children?

    This excerpt from WoWpedia explains how I feel about Garrosh's character (prior to MoP) perfectly

    Garrosh is a firm believer of “honorable” combat; as evidence of his deprecation of the Broken Front. Though he endorses conflict with the Alliance as much as possible, he will only permit it if it is done in a manner that fairly tests the martial prowess of the Horde. Using underhanded tactics such as poison and mind control is considered “cowardly” by his standards
    This is what Garrosh was prior to Mists. The current Garrosh is now a typical movie villain who cares nothing of others and only to crush enemies. Garrosh's current story has achieved little more than painting him in the worst possible light.

  20. #300
    Warchief Velshin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thimagryn View Post
    The Alliance and the Horde are at war, and Garrosh has always taken a heavy stance on acting against the enemy. Is this the same as murder and killing women and children?

    This excerpt from WoWpedia explains how I feel about Garrosh's character (prior to MoP) perfectly



    This is what Garrosh was prior to Mists. The current Garrosh is now a typical movie villain who cares nothing of others and only to crush enemies. Garrosh's current story has achieved little more than painting him in the worst possible light.

    That's the thing he is always been like that (Always unreliable leader and not honorable) but back then it wasn't as clear as now because he wasn't in a position of power and control. The moment he got his mantle as the warchief he gradually starts to show his true color. He never was honorable he never learns from his mistakes unless someone above his rank must keep him in check constantly and spoon feed him about lessons of how wars and honor works and stuff (such as Thrall and Varok Saurfang constantly trying to teach Garrosh what is means to be truely Horde). But now there is no one above him to keep him in check anymore like before so he is free to use all of his control and power to do as he pleases.

    There is an old saying it says:

    "if you want to know the person true nature? give him power."

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