Page 16 of 17 FirstFirst ...
6
14
15
16
17
LastLast
  1. #301
    I am Murloc! Anjerith's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    The apotheosis of all Deserts
    Posts
    5,031
    I submit that Garrosh is the best character introduced in WoW, simply due to the fervor that the vocal minority expresses toward him.
    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    Gold and the 'need' for it in-game is easily one of the most overblown mindsets in this community.

  2. #302
    That's the point of what happened during Cataclysm. He WAS very reckless, made many mistakes and said some terrible stuff. He learned much by the end of Northrend though, and Cataclysm showed a change in his behaviour. His character matured, and like I referenced before with Krom'gar, he literally states that he learned much during his time in Northrend and how he understands what is honorable and what isn't. Factor in the events of the Shattering as well, which solidifies his growth and maturity. He is still hot-headed and a warmonger, but it shows he now fights for a reason.

    All this is taken away and he's reverted back into a reckless brawler with too much power in MoP and onwards. I don't see it as much as 'true color' as 'Damn, fans still don't like him so lets revert him back to being an ass but 10X worse'. He's devolved into being a villain you love to hate, and there isn't really too much depth to take away from what he has become.

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-25 at 06:31 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Anjerith View Post
    I submit that Garrosh is the best character introduced in WoW, simply due to the fervor that the vocal minority expresses toward him.
    Don't get me started on Illidan :P

  3. #303
    Warchief Velshin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    One with the Light
    Posts
    2,163
    Quote Originally Posted by Thimagryn View Post
    That's the point of what happened during Cataclysm. He WAS very reckless, made many mistakes and said some terrible stuff. He learned much by the end of Northrend though, and Cataclysm showed a change in his behaviour. His character matured, and like I referenced before with Krom'gar, he literally states that he learned much during his time in Northrend and how he understands what is honorable and what isn't. Factor in the events of the Shattering as well, which solidifies his growth and maturity. He is still hot-headed and a warmonger, but it shows he now fights for a reason.

    All this is taken away and he's reverted back into a reckless brawler with too much power in MoP and onwards. I don't see it as much as 'true color' as 'Damn, fans still don't like him so lets revert him back to being an ass but 10X worse'. He's devolved into being a villain you love to hate, and there isn't really too much depth to take away from what he has become.

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-25 at 06:31 PM ----------



    Don't get me started on Illidan :P
    I will give you an example if what I mean from my previous post.

    Now imagine just imagination ok? that the current Malkorok is serving under Thrall as a warchief not Garrosh ok? of course we all know how filthy and bad basard Malkorok is. In that scenario of course Thrall will make an efforts in keeping him constantly in check to prevent him from what shitty stuff he does (examples of how he beats the crap and kill of anyone who speak or breath suspicious about his Garrosh warchief) by constantly Thrall and Saurfang keeping him in check...now does that mean he will be less bad and more decent than he is now? nope he will still be the same filthy bastard Malkorok but in that scenario he will not display a lot of what he is doing now because his superiors will not let him but he is still bad in the core. Some people will say but hey he is not that bad because he didn't do this and that as when he was with Garrosh's reign...yes that's because his superior leaders are keeping him under control and keeping him in check.

    This what what I mean about Garrosh the reason you see him less dishonorable back then because he didn't have a lot of control and power his superiors were always constantly keeping him in check. And in Cataclysm that is because he was still a new Warchief and was meant to be a temporary Warchief until Thrall comes back this is why he couldn't display his true color as he is now...but the moment he took full control you saw what happened he just /spit at Thrall and his own allies.

  4. #304
    Perhaps you mistake my intent. It's not that I don't understand his downfall, since yes, he was like that before. My point is that I find how the story has progressed to be distasteful and uninteresting. I don't have much regard for Garrosh in the first place, but what little I did like about the character is completely gone now. There is very little explanation as to why he is regressing into a complete tool, and while I regard your explanation as an interesting take on the situation, it's not clearly portrayed in the story. He simply regresses into a typical heel, void of ALL redeeming values.

  5. #305
    Warchief Velshin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    One with the Light
    Posts
    2,163
    Quote Originally Posted by Thimagryn View Post
    Perhaps you mistake my intent. It's not that I don't understand his downfall, since yes, he was like that before. My point is that I find how the story has progressed to be distasteful and uninteresting. I don't have much regard for Garrosh in the first place, but what little I did like about the character is completely gone now. There is very little explanation as to why he is regressing into a complete tool, and while I regard your explanation as an interesting take on the situation, it's not clearly portrayed in the story. He simply regresses into a typical heel, void of ALL redeeming values.

    Inside the game only yes I agree with you but when you read all the books and his story from the begining you will start to see that his progress does make sense but yeah I 100% agree with you for the players who just play the game without reading the books.

    That's the thing about Garrosh he was always a tool to the story to make things progress and hype up. Blizzard used Garrosh as a tool(he was never meant to be a very core characterfrom the very begining) to hype up the heats between the Horde and the Alliance because a lot of people were complaining that there were not enough tensions and war between blue and red when Thrall was the Warchief in the game.

  6. #306
    Quote Originally Posted by Zaelsino View Post
    That comes up short when you consider Baine does have this knowledge though.
    Unless Baine is toting around a copy of The Shattering his knowledge of what actually happened is nothing more than hearsay and could easily be changed. Granted it doesn't change what actually happened but to the NPCs in-game, other than Magatha, there is no concrete proof and their opinions on what could have transpired is likely to change given how much Garrosh has changed.

  7. #307
    Legendary!
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Behind You
    Posts
    6,938
    Quote Originally Posted by Velshin View Post
    Not slaying magatha after knowing that she is the one who stole his honorable duel with Cairne.......need I go on?
    and does not make Baine just as "dishonorable"?
    We have faced trials and danger, threats to our world and our way of life. And yet, we persevere. We are the Horde. We will not let anything break our spirits!"

  8. #308
    Warchief Velshin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    One with the Light
    Posts
    2,163
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreknar20 View Post
    and does not make Baine just as "dishonorable"?
    No that will make Baine merciful maybe naive yeah but not dishonorable. Because at least Baine stopped the Thunder Bluff war and saved his people from the total domination of the Grimtotem....and what Garrosh did in that matter? just a letter.

  9. #309
    Legendary!
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Behind You
    Posts
    6,938
    Quote Originally Posted by Velshin View Post
    That's the thing he is always been like that (Always unreliable leader and not honorable)
    Garrosh proved himself as a very capable war leader, since the whole Horde hailed him as a war hero after Northrend.
    Ex. Having a backup plan in case Warsong Hold fell, something "average" Orcs dont really do

    "Cairne was too intelligent to dismiss this as coincidence or accident. So bold he could be called reckless Garrosh might be, but recklessness did not yield the results that Grom's son had gotten. Garrosh had been exactly what the Horde needed at what was arguably its darkest, most vunerable hour, and Cairne was willing to give the boy that."

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-26 at 02:36 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Velshin View Post
    and what Garrosh did in that matter?
    and what did Baine expect of him? He neither wanted nor asked for his aid.
    We have faced trials and danger, threats to our world and our way of life. And yet, we persevere. We are the Horde. We will not let anything break our spirits!"

  10. #310
    Warchief Velshin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    One with the Light
    Posts
    2,163
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreknar20 View Post
    Garrosh proved himself as a very capable war leader, since the whole Horde hailed him as a war hero after Northrend.
    Ex. Having a backup plan in case Warsong Hold fell, something "average" Orcs dont really do

    "Cairne was too intelligent to dismiss this as coincidence or accident. So bold he could be called reckless Garrosh might be, but recklessness did not yield the results that Grom's son had gotten. Garrosh had been exactly what the Horde needed at what was arguably its darkest, most vunerable hour, and Cairne was willing to give the boy that."
    Sorry to say this but this is wrong because not the whole Horde hailed him as a war hero after Northrend. It was the young generation orcs who hailed and Thrall because he was suppose to be the pure blood orc not corrupted by any burning legion fel taint, in other word for being a mag'har (which was his deadly mistake in the first place).

    Yes Cairne at the start was impressed by Garrosh actions and recklessness but that soon diminished when he start to see what he really is after slaughtering a defenseless Alliance fleet that cause no threat. And the main reason his campaign in Northrend is a success and the young orcs regard him as hero it was because of Varok backing him back and fixing almost all of Garrosh mistakes in Northrend. One example, will be the quest in borean tundra where you are suppose to kill a strong necromancer which was a suicidel quest to begin with...then Saurfang helped you out to finish it and told you not to tell Garrosh about it him helping you out.

  11. #311
    The point is obviously that Baine has a personal stake in Garrosh's downfall, not just outrage over crimes such as Theramore. And he's echoing Cairne's last words when he says "betray". I think killing his father is a pretty legit grievance. Also:

    1) He may not have known about Gorehowl, so the fight wasn't fair, but it was him who chose a battle to the death. One of them wasn't walking away from that.

    2) Garrosh's actions led to Cairne being so outraged he challenged him to a duel for the mantle of Warchief of the Horde in the first place. So even if you absolve Garrosh of guilt in the actual death of Cairne, the situation his responsibility.

    3) As it turns out Garrosh wasn't behind the murder of druids that had Cairne so incensed - so why go through with a fight to the death over something he didn't even do? Because Cairne had insulted his honour and demanded he relinquish his Warchief status. He could've just told Cairne to walk it off, or imprisoned him until he cooled down - instead he got angry and challenged him to a fight to the death. It was pride that caused that. Notice the theme?
    Quote Originally Posted by Tojara View Post
    Look Batman really isn't an accurate source by any means
    Quote Originally Posted by Hooked View Post
    It is a fact, not just something I made up.

  12. #312
    Legendary!
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Behind You
    Posts
    6,938
    Quote Originally Posted by Velshin View Post
    One example, will be the quest in borean tundra where you are suppose to kill a strong necromancer which was a suicidel quest to begin with...then Saurfang helped you out to finish it and told you not to tell Garrosh about it him helping you out.
    One example.....as in the only example........
    People constantly say this, as if its even remotly possible that Saurfang managed to direct and lead the Warsong Offensive all behind Hellscreams back, who was the Overlord of it all.
    If Saurfang is so adament about Hellscream so much so as to threaten him why dsnt he take all the credit? Instead of having the Horde cheer on the one who "didnt" do so, one who Saurfang sees as too reckless?

    This whole theory is hardly supported. Garrosh being hailed as a hero is a major part of how he even became Warchief.
    "Garrosh has since embraced his potential as a strong leader, most notably in Northrend, where he directed the Horde advance through the Borean Tundra and won the hearts of his people."

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-26 at 02:56 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Mormolyce View Post
    1) He may not have known about Gorehowl, so the fight wasn't fair, but it was him who chose a battle to the death.
    Something Cairne was perfectly fine with..........

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-26 at 03:00 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Mormolyce View Post
    He could've just told Cairne to walk it off, or imprisoned him until he cooled down - instead he got angry and challenged him to a fight to the death.
    First of all it was Cairne who challenged Hellscream, not the other way.
    And why not decline? The same reason Thrall didnt decline Garrosh's challenge.
    This is the Horde, and strength and power, or at least the illusion of such are kinda important to show. Declining a challenge would most likely make many, maybe too many, think the Warchief is a pansy.
    We have faced trials and danger, threats to our world and our way of life. And yet, we persevere. We are the Horde. We will not let anything break our spirits!"

  13. #313
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreknar20 View Post
    Garrosh proved himself as a very capable war leader, since the whole Horde hailed him as a war hero after Northrend.
    Ex. Having a backup plan in case Warsong Hold fell, something "average" Orcs dont really do
    Well that's his public image yes, but I did the Warsong Hold quests and frankly that campaign probably would've failed if Saurfang hadn't been there to work around Garrosh behind the scenes.

    I question his capability as a military leader, it wasn't until Cataclysm that he had free reins and no Saurfang covering his ass. And what was his major military initiative? Twilight Highlands, where he orders his air support away from his troop transports to foolishly attack Alliance naval forces that weren't part of the objective of the campaign. And sure enough Deathwing's dragons immediately took down those blimps because hey, get this - dragons have air supremacy. Who'd have thought?

    In short in his only in-game tactical decision, he makes precisely the worst possible call. Classic military incompetence. Being thoughtlessly aggressive is NOT a good thing on the battlefield, it's a glaring weakness.

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-26 at 03:04 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreknar20 View Post
    One example.....as in the only example........
    People constantly say this, as if its even remotly possible that Saurfang managed to direct and lead the Warsong Offensive all behind Hellscreams back, who was the Overlord of it all.
    If Saurfang is so adament about Hellscream so much so as to threaten him why dsnt he take all the credit? Instead of having the Horde cheer on the one who "didnt" do so, one who Saurfang sees as too reckless?

    This whole theory is hardly supported. Garrosh being hailed as a hero is a major part of how he even became Warchief.
    "Garrosh has since embraced his potential as a strong leader, most notably in Northrend, where he directed the Horde advance through the Borean Tundra and won the hearts of his people."

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-26 at 02:56 AM ----------


    Something Cairne was perfectly fine with..........

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-26 at 03:00 AM ----------


    First of all it was Cairne who challenged Hellscream, not the other way.
    And why not decline? The same reason Thrall didnt decline Garrosh's challenge.
    This is the Horde, and strength and power, or at least the illusion of such are kinda important to show. Declining a challenge would most likely make many, maybe too many, think the Warchief is a pansy.
    Well we don't see anything beyond Warsong Hold because it's an MMO and we outlevel that area. Garrosh and Saurfang don't follow us to every new zone. But I think the implications are clear, Garrosh is reckless and expends his resources foolishly. Saurfang gives him a long lecture to that effect inside Warsong Hold itself.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tojara View Post
    Look Batman really isn't an accurate source by any means
    Quote Originally Posted by Hooked View Post
    It is a fact, not just something I made up.

  14. #314
    Warchief Velshin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    One with the Light
    Posts
    2,163
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreknar20 View Post
    One example.....as in the only example........
    People constantly say this, as if its even remotly possible that Saurfang managed to direct and lead the Warsong Offensive all behind Hellscreams back, who was the Overlord of it all.
    If Saurfang is so adament about Hellscream so much so as to threaten him why dsnt he take all the credit? Instead of having the Horde cheer on the one who "didnt" do so, one who Saurfang sees as too reckless?

    This whole theory is hardly supported. Garrosh being hailed as a hero is a major part of how he even became Warchief.
    "Garrosh has since embraced his potential as a strong leader, most notably in Northrend, where he directed the Horde advance through the Borean Tundra and won the hearts of his people."

    That was not the only example it was just one of the examples. Other examples will be in Warsong Hold conversation with Saurfang when Garrosh recklessly wanted to rush go go go atittude toward the icecrown when he said "
    Garrosh Hellscream says: Shipping lanes... supplies... You bore me to death! We need nothing more than the warrior spirit of the Horde, Saurfang! Now that we are firmly entrenched in this frozen wasteland, nothing shall stop us!"

    if Varok didn't stop him and taught him about military tactics Garrosh and his army will be history that moment.

    To answer your question about why Varok Saurfang didn't take full credit? because he doesn't want to because he doesn't want to embarres the young Hellscream who got choosen by Thrall his warchief to lead the Northrend campaign. And also Thrall and the veteran advisors such as Eitrigg and Saurfang wanted to give young Hellscream a chance to prove himself since he was super eager to rush Northrend.

    I will tell you a real life example about chess game. I'm almost reaching the age of 30 and I have been playing chess for a very long time you can say that I'm a professional chess player ok?

    One day my superior told me hey man I have this young kid who is eager to display his Chess skills and eager to lead his own chess team in the tournament. I want you Velshin to teach him and lecture him about it. Then I accompany that young kid who doesn't have a lot of experience but he has ethusiusim for chess and slowly teaching him and make him in the end of that tournament to get very good results. Now me as a trainer and as a veteran chess player shall I arrogantly steal the glory and the credit from this young kid who is eager to improve? yes I was the main reason for him to improve but as a veteran trainer I should be humble and pretend that the kid player has the full credit to win in this tournament he should be in the spotlight because he is the new generation and it's his era and he wanted to prove himself. Hope you got what I mean. That old veteran trainer was Varok Saurfang and that young kid that is eager and ethusism was Garrosh Hellscream. In public the young chess kid is the hero but in reality it was the old veteran trainer because he is the one who tought him so many important things about the game.

  15. #315
    Legendary!
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Behind You
    Posts
    6,938
    Quote Originally Posted by Mormolyce View Post
    And sure enough Deathwing's dragons immediately took down those blimps because hey, get this - dragons have air supremacy. Who'd have thought?
    because that had nothing to do with Saurok being a secret Twilight operative.........

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-26 at 03:28 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Velshin View Post
    Then I accompany that young kid who doesn't have a lot of experience but he has ethusiusim for chess and slowly teaching him and make him in the end of that tournament to get very good results.
    yet it was the younger kid making the moves, directing the "troops on the board"
    It wsnt the veteran secretly moving all the pieces while the other player was looking away, or the younger player just doing what the trainer told him and being nothing but a pawn - essentially playing for him

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-26 at 03:38 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Mormolyce View Post
    But I think the implications are clear, Garrosh is reckless and expends his resources foolishly.
    And yet was able to lead the Warsong Offensive to victory in Northrend - as Cairne states - and in so doing "win the hearts of his people.

    Thrall chuckled. “I know. True words, still. Fitting for an overlord every bit as much.” Thrall looked about, taking in the hold, the gray sea to the west, and the vast tundra plain that stretched all around them. “This is no small accomplishment, Garrosh. Our holdings are secure, and the front in Icecrown presses forward. You fight alongside your soldiers with courage, and they respect you. You should be proud.”
    Garrosh narrowed his eyes.
    “I do not regret my choice of commander for this offensive,” Thrall said.
    Last edited by Dreknar20; 2013-06-26 at 03:29 AM.
    We have faced trials and danger, threats to our world and our way of life. And yet, we persevere. We are the Horde. We will not let anything break our spirits!"

  16. #316
    I don't agree that this is bad writing necessarily; it's okay for characters to be stubborn and resentful out of grief, especially when it's over someone they were very close to. We might expect better from Baine, but there's no reason he can't make mistakes or forget the truth in anger. Back in Cataclysm, Thrall seemed guilty of this as well - in the Elemental Bonds: Fury quest, the implication of the line "Garrosh... Garrosh... CAIRNE WAS MY BROTHER!" was that he puts the blame solely on Garrosh for what happened. Either he doesn't know that Magatha was the one who poisoned Gorehowl, or he doesn't care enough about that to hate her for it. You could say that this was just an exaggerated manifestation of Thrall's anger, but then you could also say that Baine is letting his frustrations get the better of him as well.

    Hopefully there will be something added to humble Baine about this matter, but even if there isn't, it doesn't mean the lore was forgotten or outright retconned. Then again, what do I know? I'm just another mindless fanboy.

  17. #317
    Quote Originally Posted by Elementalkin View Post
    the implication of the line "Garrosh... Garrosh... CAIRNE WAS MY BROTHER!" was that he puts the blame solely on Garrosh for what happened. Either he doesn't know that Magatha was the one who poisoned Gorehowl, or he doesn't care enough about that to hate her for it.
    Garrosh was still at fault for killing Cairne, while the betrayal was at the hands of Magatha. Thrall is angry at the fact that Garrosh killed his friend, an act that was regrettably preventable. Magatha would not have acted if Garrosh did not give her such a great opening.

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-25 at 10:34 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Velshin View Post
    Inside the game only yes I agree with you but when you read all the books and his story from the begining you will start to see that his progress does make sense but yeah I 100% agree with you for the players who just play the game without reading the books.
    It makes sense to a degree. Read everything up to the Shattering and the quests in Cataclysm, and you will see that despite his faults, Garrosh has redeeming values. Read everything after, you will see he has almost no admirable qualities, whether it is his fighting capabilities or leadership. Throughout all of Mists of Pandaria, when have we seen Garrosh in a good light? Novels, in game, anything? Because I can tell you straight up, during Cataclysm, despite all the bad things he did, he still had his honor, and that's what kept him rounded.

    That's the thing about Garrosh he was always a tool to the story to make things progress and hype up. Blizzard used Garrosh as a tool(he was never meant to be a very core character from the very begining) to hype up the heats between the Horde and the Alliance because a lot of people were complaining that there were not enough tensions and war between blue and red when Thrall was the Warchief in the game.
    Yes. And they've devolved the character into a monster. They decided to stick with being paranoid and power hungry, without a true cause. Again, bad writing.
    Last edited by Thimagryn; 2013-06-26 at 08:11 AM.

  18. #318
    Quote Originally Posted by Thimagryn View Post
    Garrosh was still at fault for killing Cairne, while the betrayal was at the hands of Magatha. Thrall is angry at the fact that Garrosh killed his friend, an act that was regrettably preventable. Magatha would not have acted if Garrosh did not give her such a great opening.
    But the duel was Cairne's idea.

  19. #319
    It's still Garrosh who changed the rules that lead to Cairne's death, and being the one to deliver the death blow. That's what Thrall is angry about.

  20. #320
    Don't care about the reasons, Garrosh killed me favorite MOO! He must answer for those crimes!!

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •