Cairne, the sad and betrayed Tauren

[Kathranis]

Reminds me of Wrath when Varian whined about how he was a forced to be a gladiator slave for the Horde, totally twisting the lore to make the Horde sound bad and to make him sound like a victim, when in reality the gladiator ring wasn't run by the Horde, he was only allowed to be taken prisoner because he had amnesia and was assumed to be a Theramore deserter, and most importantly, it's well established that he actually preferred the simple life as a gladiator to the complicated life of ruler.

Here, if anything, it was Cairne who betrayed Garrosh. Was Cairne wrong for having misgivings about Garrosh? No, not really -- though if you read the Shattering, it's clear that Cairne had already formed his opinion of Garrosh based on the actions of Grom, before he even met the orc himself.

Thrall appointed Cairne as Garrosh's advisor, and Cairne left because Garrosh wasn't heeding his advice, despite Garrosh practically begging Cairne to stay on as his advisor, saying that he respected his advice even if he disagreed with it. But Cairne left all the same -- and the issue of contention that forced him to leave, btw, was the architecture of the reconstructed Orgrimmar. It reminded Cairne of Hellfire Citadel. That was the tipping point for him to leave.

Then Cairne and Hamuul were deceived by the Twilight Cult. Completely fell for the bait they set up. Cairne didn't investigate, he didn't try to find the truth -- he marched into Orgrimmar, punched Garrosh in the jaw, and challenged him to a duel. Garrosh thought he could cow him by making it a duel to the death, in true traditional style, but Cairne surprised him by accepting. Garrosh and Cairne were then both betrayed by Magatha. Garrosh did not want to win the duel that way, as is made obvious by the book. He considered it a blow to his own reputation, and a robbery of a test of skill against another powerful warrior.

Let's not forget that Magatha was the true traitor, and that Cairne new she was a threat, but let her carry on under his nose. The Grimtotem not only assassinated Cairne, but killed many, many tauren in their attempted coup, and Baine himself would've been killed if not for a few Grimtotem that did not agree with Magatha's plot.

So, yeah, I have no problem with Baine holding a grudge against Garrosh, because Garrosh did strike the final blow, but come on. Let's at least phrase things accurately and not misstate facts just to make Garrosh look like a bigger bad guy.

[Abstieg]

This is from Tides of War novel just look how the tensions between Baine and Garrosh started to rise again.


Eitrigg found himself being cut off by Gallywix who proclaimed that there would be no costs and that he was only hearing talk of profit. In anger of the goblin's quip about the blood of foes and allies being spilled for profit, Baine found he could no longer be silent. Baine angrily told Garrosh that Jaina Proudmoore did not deserve such treatment and how she had helped him when others of the Horde had not. In response, Garrosh told Baine to be silent unless he wished to share the same fate as his father. In response, Baine asked if that meant dying betrayed. When Garrosh roared in fury Hamuul Runetotem stepped forward to protect Baine as did Eitrigg, though at the same time Malkorok, a Blackrock orc and Garrosh's new bodyguard did the same for Garrosh.

Is that actually a direct quote from a novel?

[mmines]

I think you have to kind of put things in perspective. With all the things Garrosh has done lately, and plans to do still, do you think Baine still believes Garrosh wasn't playing him back then either? Garrosh's tactics at Theramore show how deceptive he can be. I realize Garrosh didn't actually betray Cairne. But Baine is probably looking back now on that whole situation now with everything that's happened recently and wondering if he and his dad got played.

That or its possibly wrong and most likely will be changed like people are saying.

I would like to believe it's this. Why would garrosh want someone like magatha in control of thunder bluff. I think it's very possible that garrosh could have been playing them at the time for any number of reasons. It's the ptr after all so I'm sure we'll either see it corrected or some stuff added in explaining why it's like this. Is there a thread on the official forums about this yet?

[Aquamonkey]

Is that actually a direct quote from a novel?

No. It's from the wiki.

[De Lupe]

Not the Alliance as a whole, but it was A member of the Alliance that helped him. Not sure what that's worth.

When Magni was turned to stone and Carine sent an emissary to IF to honor the fallen king that he personally respected, was that an act from the Horde? No, it was respect from one person to another.


She did it out of personal respect for Cairne, one of only a handful of people within the Horde she would have trusted with her life. She didn't do it for the Alliance, hence why she didn't send Alliance troops. She did it because she respected Cairne enough to over-look the H/A conflict and help his son re-take a city wrongfully seized by a traitorous witch who was given better than she deserved. (I want Magatha's head on a platter at some point in a future expansion.)

If she did it in the name of the Alliance, TB would be an Ally city right now.

[Abstieg]

No. It's from the wiki.

Wew, I almost gave up my writing career on the spot.

[Penguintamer]

Is it that difficult to separate Baine from Blizzard?

Baine is the one talking. He BELIEVES that Garrosh betrayed his father, and considering how much of a monster Garrosh has become, it's easy to see why he'd think that Garrosh was underhanded enough to do that. But that's just Baine's opinion. That doesn't mean Blizzard thinks so, and that doesn't mean it was to be taken as a fact.

[mmines]

This is from Tides of War novel just look how the tensions between Baine and Garrosh started to rise again.


Eitrigg found himself being cut off by Gallywix who proclaimed that there would be no costs and that he was only hearing talk of profit. In anger of the goblin's quip about the blood of foes and allies being spilled for profit, Baine found he could no longer be silent. Baine angrily told Garrosh that Jaina Proudmoore did not deserve such treatment and how she had helped him when others of the Horde had not. In response, Garrosh told Baine to be silent unless he wished to share the same fate as his father. In response, Baine asked if that meant dying betrayed. When Garrosh roared in fury Hamuul Runetotem stepped forward to protect Baine as did Eitrigg, though at the same time Malkorok, a Blackrock orc and Garrosh's new bodyguard did the same for Garrosh.

That's interesting, but did it say why he thinks garrosh betrayed him?

[Velshin]

Is that actually a direct quote from a novel?

No this was from wowpedia but if you want the actual novel quote just give me few mins to get the page up and writing it down here for ya.

[Xeraxis]

Except Baine knows that Magatha poisoned Gorehowl and doesn't hold Garrosh responsible.

"I will expect the same challenge from the son as the father, then," he said.
"You will not have it."
Garrosh frowned, not understanding. Baine continued. "Do not think that I would not enjoy fighting you, Garrosh Hellscream. Whatever was on the blade, yours was the hand that cut down my father. But tauren are not so petty. The true killer was Magatha, not you. My father issued the mak'gora, and the argument between you and he is settled, even if, due to Magatha's treachery, the fight was no fair one.
--The Shattering

Baine must have bumped into the Sha of Amnesia.

Remind me again where in The Shattering did Baine see Magatha poison the blade? You people need to learn that what we the playerbase know for fact through books is not what the NPCs know for fact.

---------- Post added 2013-06-22 at 05:09 AM ----------

What? Have you read the Shattering? Because half the story is about Baine. And it explains what he's thinking of, what he thinks is going on, and who is to blame for all the events surrounding the death of his father. He is a POV character.

You don't think his PoV may shift once the person he trusted with the information about his fathers death does a complete 180?

[dejec1989]

Cairne was down on one knee because he was picking up a piece of his shattered runespear to use as a weapon. While the fight was happening, Cairne was the the only person who knew he was poisoned.

You missed the point, this is going on in Baine's head....

[Aquamonkey]

Remind me again where in The Shattering did Baine see Magatha poison the blade? You people need to learn that what we the playerbase know for fact through books is not what the NPCs know for fact.

Except I just quoted the book where Baine himself says that he knew Magatha poisoned the blade.

[Thimagryn]

I just finished reading that part from Tides of War. That definitely is a conversation I hadn't seen before.

In context, I can see it being something Baine would say to Garrosh just as a jab, since he knows it would get him angry. Garrosh hates anything dishonourable, and there's nothing worse than being called a betrayer.

Does Baine honestly believe this though? In the context of the story, I would have waived it off as a simple insult. This, on top of what he says to Vol'jin in 5.4, is starting to make me think Blizzard is changing history again...

[Redmage]

Yeah the shitty FPS action hero dialogue made me cringe too.

[Thimagryn]

You don't think his PoV may shift once the person he trusted with the information about his fathers death does a complete 180?

And? What does this have to do with Garrosh having betrayed Cairn when he was still alive? What part of 'I should have killed Garrosh when he betrayed my father' makes it sound like the betrayal has anything to do post-Cairn's death?

A PoV shift doesn't require bullshit reasoning, especially when this is supposed to be the champion players are rallying behind. We're trading a delusional warchief for a delusional chieftain who can't remember facts from a couple years back? And we're supposed to be okay with that?

I'm okay if Baine wants to overthrow/exact revenge on Garrosh, but the point is not what Baine's emotional state is currently in, it's his denial of events he's already resolved. "He's just saying it cuz he's mad" isn't justification by any means.

[Xeraxis]

And? What does this have to do with Garrosh having betrayed Cairn when he was still alive? What part of 'I should have killed Garrosh when he betrayed my father' makes it sound like the betrayal has anything to do post-Cairn's death?

A PoV shift doesn't require bullshit reasoning, especially when this is supposed to be the champion players are rallying behind. We're trading a delusional warchief for a delusional chieftain who can't remember facts from a couple years back? And we're supposed to be okay with that?

I'm okay if Baine wants to overthrow/exact revenge on Garrosh, but the point is not what Baine's emotional state is currently in, it's his denial of events he's already resolved. "He's just saying it cuz he's mad" isn't justification by any means.

Except I just quoted the book where Baine himself says that he knew Magatha poisoned the blade.

And he knew it how? Other than what Garrosh has told him at what point in The Shattering does Magatha tell him that Garrosh had no part in it or does he witness the actual poisoning of the blade without Garrosh's knowledge? You really need to remember that what we read and are made aware of in books here in the real world that NPCs are not reading that same book divulging all it's plot points so that they can draw the same conclusions.

[Velshin]

Here now the exact quote from Tides of War novel:


Baine had had enough. The greedy, self absorbed goblin's quip about the blood of heroes and foes alike being spilled for profit pushed Baine's anger past prudent silence.


"Garrosh!" he said. "There is none here who can say that I do not love the Horde. Nor any who can say that I do not honor your title."

Garrosh did not speak. He well knew that he had not come to Baine's aid when it was needed, and yet the tauren still had acknowledged him as warchief. Baine had even saved Garrosh's life once. The orc made no attempt to silence Baine...yet.

"I know this lady. You do not. She has worked tirelessly for peace, knowing well that we are not monsters but people like the people who compose the Alliance."

His sharp eyes scanned the crowd, andany rabble rousers who might have been tempted to protest his labeling humans, night elves, dwarves, draenei, worgens, and gnomes as "people" wisely held their tongues.

"I have received aid and shelter in her home. She helped me when even members of the Horde would not. (Here he was referring when Garrosh took no action at all against Magatha when he fully knew about her treachrey and about poisoning his Gorehowl. And not helping Baine durning the war in Thunder bluff against the Grimtotem. Gonna continue the quote now.:P)


She does not deserve this treachery, this-----"

"Baine Bloodhoof!" snarled Garrosh, closing the distance between himself and the tauren high chieftain in a few strides. Baine towered over him, but Garrosh was not cowed.

"If you do not wish to share your father's fate, I would advise you to watch what you say!"

"You mean dying betrayed?" Baine shot back.

Garrosh roared.

[Aquamonkey]

And he knew it how? Other than what Garrosh has told him at what point in The Shattering does Magatha tell him that Garrosh had no part in it or does he witness the actual poisoning of the blade without Garrosh's knowledge? You really need to remember that what we read and are made aware of in books here in the real world that NPCs are not reading that same book divulging all it's plot points so that they can draw the same conclusions.

"We have evidence that Magatha poisoned the blade. None that Garrosh consented." -Baine

So your position is that when an NPC's knowledge coincides with the truth, it should be completely discounted as "pfft, he doesn't know what really happened"?

[Nadev]

Am I the only one hoping Lor'Themar and maybe Vol'Jin (or Saurfang, I guess if he shows up) to be the only Horde leaders to come out of this alive?

Sylvanas still has a few respawns left.

Not a big fan of hers. I'd prefer Koltira take charge.

[Aquamonkey]

Am I the only one hoping Lor'Themar and maybe Vol'Jin (or Saurfang, I guess if he shows up) to be the only Horde leaders to come out of this alive?

Sylvanas still has a few respawns left.