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  1. #1
    Field Marshal mat cauthon's Avatar
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    Question needs some critiquing, well alot really

    I know I keep doing this, but ive found the mmochamp community to be by far the best and most helpful knowledge base around

    My guilds 2nd team is starting up, sadly only half formed at this point, and a few green raiders on the team learning the ropes. That being said they do want to find their weaknesses and improve on them. The team as it stands is consisted of Druidbuid, Shizitsabear, cheeseyguy, stfugtfo, harachio, and neley (not present in these logs).

    I would appreciate any constructive criticism of whats shown in the logs for their Terrace of Endless Spring attempts tonight to help them improve and move into current content to provide a rival of sorts for our main team

    http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-v2...5z4/dashboard/

    And as always, Thank you for taking your time and using your experience to aid my guild in our quest to further ourselves as raiders

  2. #2
    Lets take a look:
    Tanks are dying to taking to many dmg.
    In P1 everyone has to clear the stacks. Dont go if its to late. Go earlier. Go one time more better then one time less. I dont know your tactics but i hope u dont stand in the beam all the time. Just stay out and run through it every 8-15 stacks depending on class and healers.
    For the tanks: Anything that hits the group is the breath. This breath u see in DBM. So u can at least one time reset your stacks as active tank.
    You dont need that but u can. Normaly as tank the first 30 seconds are easy. Then the dot ranks up and now u should have some smaller cds. When u see that the breath comes in 5 sec u should look and take another CD. Its a little bit managing. U get 4 Breaths per night. Intervall of 2 minutes for each tank. (if i remeber right) So plan your cds. Also if u are not tanking: If u see the breath comes in 5 sec clear your stacks before u taunt. Sometimes i have seen tanks clearing stacks after the other tank has taunt and then never.
    Dayphase: The small adds crawling out of the bigger one are a nightmare. The easiest way to deal with them is the breath. Dont just zerg the big one. Bring it to 20% wait for the timer of the breath. When it is at 10 sec kill the big one instant, by ~5 sec the adds spawn, massstun them, breath incoming, all adds down no one feared/killed.
    If i remeber right it we killed 3 big adds in dayphase. The first must die before the first breath. There were no middleadds so just taunt in front of boss and burst.
    The second we delayed for the third breath and the third big add comes to the last breath.
    Another thing is decursing. Tsulong should be decursed instant, but if u have problems with people dying to the dot just decurse them to. U have 3 healers. Just assign everybody right.
    Individual things i see:
    U have 2 holys. U see the differences. Stfu should really talk to Lythia and learn something. Things i see are for example: Flash Heal. Never use it. Just dont do it. He overuse it. And his healing is bad.
    The overalldps is a little bit low. If you have individual questions about a guy just refer to the classforums.
    I hope it helped out a little bit.

  3. #3
    I don't even know where to start... for the tanks: (last try)

    Harachio (pala tank):
    - 42% uptime on Sacred Shield, should be 80-90%+
    - Hasn't used Divine Protection a single time.
    - 6% uptime on Shield of the Righteous. It should be 30-40%+ even in crap gear. He used it 11 times under 8 minutes. This basically says, that he has no idea what he is doing. He should read after her own class.
    - He is spamming Word of Glory, which he shouldn't.

    Shizitsabear (bear tank):
    - Used Savage Defense 7(!) times under 8 minutes. 8% uptime. He should also read up on her class.
    - He has also a strange obsession with self heals. -__- Which while ain't bad vs Shadow Breath, he doesn't uses them smartly.
    - He often goes over 20+ stack with the debuff.

    Both of them should try to learn their class.

  4. #4
    Field Marshal mat cauthon's Avatar
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    appreciate the input from you both would prefer it without the derogatory tone but ill just choose to ignore the tone and stick with the information in this case.

    now would i be better off posting these logs in the class forums for each of the individual members of the team (since there were a few pugs and sadly tomathan spent time critiquing them, although a kind gesture in spending his time doing so not of much use since they wont be back most likely) ?? i was attempting to avoid doing that, simply because i wasnt sure if it was permitted to make half a dozen posts in different threads with links to the same logs, and id prefer to stay on the mods good side... these forums are far too valuable an asset to squander.

  5. #5
    Bloodsail Admiral Ethes's Avatar
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    Honestly, I'd suggest that Druidbuid, Shizitsabear, cheeseyguy and stfugtfo rename their characters into something normal before trying again....

    Other than that these people generally seem to be clueless to what they're supposed to be doing. I suggest that they'll all have a look at a website like www.noxxic.com and find out what they're supposed to be doing..
    Quote Originally Posted by Warbringer O'Mrogg
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  6. #6
    High Overlord holypriest's Avatar
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    I'll just comment on the holy priest since thats what I play

    -He should be using Cascade not Halo
    - PoM is really low, looking at his logs he only cast it 10x even though he had 23 Divine Insight procs. Especially on fights with constant damage (tsulong, garalon etc) this should pretty much be on CD. PoM is often my top heals if not its definitely within the top 3
    - Tell him to not cast Sanctuary, in 10 mans its pretty much a waste of mana even with everyone stacked in it it doesn't do very much healing
    -He only cast divine hymn once in an 8min attempt he should be using it every night phase
    -Don't glyph PoM especially with Divine Insight (your PoM has 1 less charge this way)
    -He is reforging haste I find mastery to be way more benificial especially if he is having problems with mana + echo of light is often 20% or more of my healing
    -None of his gear is enchanted except his chest

    As for the comment above about Flash heal, while its true he shouldn't generally be using it, on Tsulong I generally used a FH, FH GH rotation with renew up and Holy Word Serenity with breath so I could see it being higher for this fight. However I don't see him switching Chakras (from Sanc to Seren) from night to day which he should be for the single target heals.

    There is a very good Holy Priest Guide on the Priest forums
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  7. #7
    Don't use noxxic... at least for tanks it is garbage.

    And sorry, for the tone of my post, but. This is bad. Seriously.
    I don't really think that posting this to the class subforums has much sense, as most of the errors are considered basics. They can't say much more, than that they should look up their class, and read.

  8. #8
    Field Marshal mat cauthon's Avatar
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    @holypriest TY ill be sure to pass the info along to her, it is much appreciated

    @wanko /agree on the noxxic part. as far as the rest as i said in the OP some of them are new, and idk about you but when i was new i sucked lol so i just expect mistakes with green raiders out of habit but i truly appreciate you, and everyone else, taking time out of your day to help us.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethes View Post
    Honestly, I'd suggest that Druidbuid, Shizitsabear, cheeseyguy and stfugtfo rename their characters into something normal before trying again....

    Other than that these people generally seem to be clueless to what they're supposed to be doing. I suggest that they'll all have a look at a website like www.noxxic.com and find out what they're supposed to be doing..
    names are a personal choice and have no standing here, quite honestly i could say the same of 'ethes' but i digress its off topic so i ask that you keep it to yourself.

    on the rest of your post i did mention that some of them were green raiders (as in new to raiding in general) so novice mistakes should be expected, however 'noxxic' is possibly the absolute worst site for anyone on wow to use, if youre still using that incorrect pos id suggest looking into icy-veins, elitistjerks, or even gotwarcraft all 3 of which are far more accurate and consistent then that trash site noxxic but i will have them take a look at some articles on the 3 good sites, again, and see if that helps any

  9. #9
    Herald of the Titans Grimord's Avatar
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    I'll criticize what I know: the Paladin Tank (you can check armory in the sig, if it means anything).

    First things first:

    His reforging, gemming and enchanting is outdated. He did well by reaching Hit cap. He is also working into exp hard cap though I'd argue that at his iLvL he should just keep the soft cap and work on other stats and only get more exp as he gets higher ilvl gear.

    Also, telling him to dump his second trinket (Brawler's Statue) and get a Ghost Iron Dragonling using Haste, Mastery and Hit/Experise (whichever he needs to hit soft cap) cogwheels on it. He should also aim to replace the other trinket (Bubbliest Brightbrew Charm) for Lei Shen's Final Orders that drops from Will of the Emperor. As soon as he starts doing ToT LFR he should try to grab Spark of the Zandalar off Horridon and/or Fabled Feather of Ji-kun off... Well, Ji-kun.

    Second, he's stacking parry and, well, he shouldn't. Since you're doing 10 mans he should go Hit (7.5%) > Exp (7.5%) > Haste > Mastery > Ability to throw insults at the boss > Gnome-throwing > Stand-up comedy > Tauren takedown > Parry > Dodge.

    He can also choose Mastery build over Haste to achieve similar results though I wouldn't recommend it unless you're planning to go 25man.

    Third, he seems to be using decent talents, though unless the fight is one where you have a lot of "stack up" moments I'd recommend against Light's Hammer and pick Holy Prism instead.
    He is not using Glyph of Battle Healer which he should be using for most fights!
    Even if he really needed Glyph of Consecration he should replace something else, Glyph of Battle Healer is a really strong glyph for Protadins, specially in fights like Tsulong where there's constant raid damage.

    Fourth, looking at the logs themselves:

    Sacred Shield - 42% uptime - This is VERY low. He should be aiming for 90%+. It can be tricky to track and he should definitely consider using WeakAuras, TellMeWhen or any other addon that allows buff tracking.

    Shield of the Righteous - 6.6% uptime - This is BEYOND terrible. This is the most important part of his toolkit and the greatest survivability tool he has available. Even at his ilvl he should easily reach 20~30% uptime.

    Word of Glory - He is using this waaaaaaaay too often. It no longer grants an absorb shield for overhealing like in Cataclysm so there's really no gain in spamming it. It's better to have it at high Bastion of Glory stacks and use it as a last resort to save yourself or someone in the raid (BoG only affects self use, though).

    EDIT:

    He can always check http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...-Paladin-Guide for more detailed information on all things Prot Paladin and there's always a happy bunch of people around willing to help and explain once every two days why stacking Haste is good for the health!
    Last edited by Grimord; 2013-06-22 at 09:28 PM.


  10. #10
    Field Marshal mat cauthon's Avatar
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    ill be sure to pass the info, and the link along to him. thanks for the detailed info, im making a note of it for myself whenever i get my pally up to 90 tyvm

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Ethes View Post
    Honestly, I'd suggest that Druidbuid, Shizitsabear, cheeseyguy and stfugtfo rename their characters into something normal before trying again....
    screaming LOL

  12. #12
    Here's what I always recommend to people new to raiding...

    First, copy a good guide's build. Don't just pick the first one you see, but find a decent one, understand why they make the choices they do and then start off by copying the build and using the stat priorities they recommend. This gets you in the ballpark. There might be slight refinements, but it's CLOSE.

    Second, look at the rotations and general recommendations that they have. A simple hunter example would be to always use Lock and Load when it procs and to keep SS uptime high(for SV). For a resto druid to keep up Harmony, etc.

    Third, if you're DPS go practice rotations on dummies. What you're looking for isn't DPS it's basic things - are you using CDs when you should? IF you have a dot, is it up 100% of the time? Get the rotation down.

    Fourth, run a raid and LOG IT. Analyze those things (dot uptime, CD usage).

    Refinements: tailor your UI so it's easy for you to see when things are off CD and to use them. Keybind things. Use DBM or Bigwigs. If you aren't seeing when abilities come off CD use OmniCC and position buttons where they're easily visible, use WeakAuras, etc.

    IF people won't do this, they're not interested in improving. Then you either accept that and the limits it places on your raid or you recruit and replace.

  13. #13
    Field Marshal mat cauthon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by clevin View Post
    Here's what I always recommend to people new to raiding...

    First, copy a good guide's build. Don't just pick the first one you see, but find a decent one, understand why they make the choices they do and then start off by copying the build and using the stat priorities they recommend. This gets you in the ballpark. There might be slight refinements, but it's CLOSE.

    Second, look at the rotations and general recommendations that they have. A simple hunter example would be to always use Lock and Load when it procs and to keep SS uptime high(for SV). For a resto druid to keep up Harmony, etc.

    Third, if you're DPS go practice rotations on dummies. What you're looking for isn't DPS it's basic things - are you using CDs when you should? IF you have a dot, is it up 100% of the time? Get the rotation down.

    Fourth, run a raid and LOG IT. Analyze those things (dot uptime, CD usage).

    Refinements: tailor your UI so it's easy for you to see when things are off CD and to use them. Keybind things. Use DBM or Bigwigs. If you aren't seeing when abilities come off CD use OmniCC and position buttons where they're easily visible, use WeakAuras, etc.

    IF people won't do this, they're not interested in improving. Then you either accept that and the limits it places on your raid or you recruit and replace.
    first and second ive had the, do already, least i told them to and was told they would in reply, havnt had them at dummies yet but its one suggestion ill be making as well (ty)

    as far as the logs go thats where i run into problems, as you can tell from the link in the OP ive had them running logs... but the thing is i dont know their classes, at all if they had a rogue on the team i could help there but as far as the rest goes i dont raid with any other class so i dont know what im looking for there... yes theres always the make sure folks arnt standing in fire, but honestly if they cant figure that out on their own theres no hope lol... but thats why ive come here, where i know there are knowledgeable players of every spec in the game in hopes of someone who knows their classes being willing to give them a hand, as a few have done an exception and greatly appreciated job of already but theres little i can gather from their logs aside from the raiding 101 basics, hence the post

    and as for the last, ive sworn by power auras, then by weak auras since DS in cata when i had to track everything for my bad attempt at sub and then later to track my fotf procs its a wonderful addon that ive preached the usefullness of to my guys till i turned blue in the face and was mistaken for a smurf if they havnt gotten it yet im not sure i could say any more, aside from they are suffering without it, to encourage them to get it

  14. #14
    "as far as the logs go thats where i run into problems, as you can tell from the link in the OP ive had them running logs... but the thing is i dont know their classes, at all..."

    You don't actually need to know that much, but you can spot check like this. Most classes and specs have an ability that's used on cooldown. For example, SV hunters have Explosive shot, BM hunters have Kill command. Those on on 6 second CDs... so divide that number into the fight length in seconds. A 5 minute fight is 300 secs or about 50 of either shot. Is the hunter doing that? Or half that? Some things can mess with this (Explosive becomes available when the hunter gets a Lock and Load proc), but that's a quick check of CD usage. Serpent Sting is important to SV hunters especially and should be up close to 100% of the time. If it's up 60%, that's a problem. You can spot check this stuff and see if they're doing what they said they would.

    Also, if a raider's spec is VASTLY different than, say, Icy-veins.com's suggestion they aren't in fact doing #1. You can check that stuff against Armory and ask why they have some funky spec vs the baseline starter spec.

    Keep in mind that some talents aren't that important to DPS but can be of good utility - Posthaste for hunters is useful on Council since it breaks the rooting in Quicksand, but another talent on that level (Crouching Tiger...) is better on JInrokh since it means the hunter will have Deterrence up most Storms. Other talents are definitely subpar (no hunter would take Powershot over Glaive Toss or Barrage in PVE for example).

  15. #15
    If they wanted to improve, they'd be the ones looking for help.

  16. #16
    Field Marshal mat cauthon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Archangel Tyrael View Post
    If they wanted to improve, they'd be the ones looking for help.
    takes a certain number of posts before links can be posted, i offered to make the post for them since none of them have an account here yet, most didnt know these forums existed as i didnt myself till the last month, so it was just easier for me to make the post then each of them to make accounts, find and make 10 random posts that clogged up the boards, and then make their own individual posts asking the same question when it only took me a minute or two to make the post on their behalf part of a gms job to help out their people.

  17. #17
    Pandaren Monk Auloria's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Archangel Tyrael View Post
    If they wanted to improve, they'd be the ones looking for help.
    New raiders often don't have a good feel for the resources that are available online. There's also a transition period from "I just play the game to have fun" where you look down on having to do homework, to "playing my class well IS fun" where you really take advantage of all the information out there.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zdrasti View Post
    When a homeless person is rambling in the streets, it's better to ignore them than argue with them. On the internets it's clearly better to spend an entire week proving them wrong.

  18. #18
    Field Marshal mat cauthon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Auloria View Post
    New raiders often don't have a good feel for the resources that are available online. There's also a transition period from "I just play the game to have fun" where you look down on having to do homework, to "playing my class well IS fun" where you really take advantage of all the information out there.
    o trust me i know lol i remember my first toon back in bc, i was the absolute biggest huntard out there, i mean literally the only thing i had right was i was using a ranged wep and a pet lol... didnt know fansites existed or addons for that matter... a guild took me in and taught me the ropes, went out of their way to help me out... now that im a guildmaster myself i try to do the same for my members, this isnt even a team i run with but i want them to succeed and excell in raiding as much as my own team, part of why im here trying to get as much advice from the community here as i can

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-24 at 01:37 PM ----------

    if no one else has any generalized critiquing ill head over tot he class forums of the above mentioned classes later on today and see what can be gleaned from there i appreciate any past and any future (if anyone else wants to post here if they see issues in the above logs it would still be a huge help ) aid given in this thread

  19. #19
    Bloodsail Admiral Ethes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mat cauthon View Post
    names are a personal choice and have no standing here, quite honestly i could say the same of 'ethes' but i digress its off topic so i ask that you keep it to yourself.

    on the rest of your post i did mention that some of them were green raiders (as in new to raiding in general) so novice mistakes should be expected, however 'noxxic' is possibly the absolute worst site for anyone on wow to use, if youre still using that incorrect pos id suggest looking into icy-veins, elitistjerks, or even gotwarcraft all 3 of which are far more accurate and consistent then that trash site noxxic but i will have them take a look at some articles on the 3 good sites, again, and see if that helps any
    It depends on how you use a website like Noxxic. It is perfectly good enough to show you the general idea of what you're supposed to be doing with your class. Which is what green raiders normally need, instead of the guides that you can find on places like EJ or IV which tend to be overly complex if you're new to raiding and merely need to find out what stats you generally need and what a simplified version of your rotation should like. That is what noxxic offers and what green raiders need imho.

    As for my name, despite whether you like it or not, mine does pass the naming restrictions on an RP realm, whereas Shitzsabear and stfugtfo are actually violating the general naming policy. Hence the reason I suggested them getting a name change... But w/e floats your boat mate!
    Quote Originally Posted by Warbringer O'Mrogg
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  20. #20
    Noxxic is perfectly fine for your raiders. Honestly, they look like they would gain from learning how to play their classes a bit better - at least a basic understanding of the class. And Noxxic will help in that regard.

    Asking them to go EJ and running simcraft etc is way way overkill. Babysteps first.

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