Symbiosis QoL buff

[Sting]

Another shocking revelation, yet more content that requires another player in a MMO game, who could have seen this coming.

[Raugnaut]

The best QoL buff there was for Symb was actually a bug- Symb wouldn't fade after leaving the party, thus granting you an hour with w/e ability you had got. Bring that back and Symb is good.

Of course, something that DOES piss me off about Symb is that for Guardian, 2 of the 5 useful abilities are things that the Guardian SHOULD have baseline. Lightning Shield is essentially the Wrath version of Thorns. It was changed to be more active in Cata, and then removed entirely in MoP, but granted to Guardians only IF they have a shaman in the group and diegn to give them symb. Consecration is something that Guardians (and Warriors) NEED baseline- all the other tanks have some sort of ability that does damage over time on the ground around them/somewhere and can be used to pick up adds easily (SCK for Monks, Consecration for Paladins, DnD for DKs.)


---------- Post added 2013-06-23 at 04:01 PM ----------

My problem with Symbiosis is that the target player can right-klik and remove the buff.
I dont think they should be given that option.
Its our spell not theirs, if they dont want it, they re free no to use it, but i want what i get from em.

I used to use an add on announcing via say or wisper the symbiosis to my target, but i ve quit using it cause when i did, many removed it

No, they can't remove the buff. Me and my partner tested it out.

However, if they change specs/talents/glyphs, or if YOU change specs/talents/glyphs, its removed automatically.

[Mystikal]

Mass Dispel is borderline useless now that the Priest version has been changed. Ours is simply a 10-person dispel on a 60s cooldown - it no longer removes immunities.

You're entitled to your opinion Viromand, but speaking strictly from a raiding point of view, most of what you mentioned for Balance is rubbish. MD transfers such a small amount of threat that I can't even get the adds from Twins hc to go the tank. Cloak, UR and AMS I will give you, but they're pretty much the only ones. HoJ is only useful on trash. The only fight where Intervene provided a dps increase was Bladelord hc, that I will agree with - but anywhere else, Displacer Beast does it better. If you're needing DB and Intervene within the same 30s, you're doing it wrong.

As to what the other class gains, that's my (and many other people's) point - our level 87 ability, for half of the Druid specs, is used solely for what the *target* gets, and not the Druid. Why shouldn't it be like that for all four specs?

[Viromand]

Mass Dispel is borderline useless now that the Priest version has been changed. Ours is simply a 10-person dispel on a 60s cooldown - it no longer removes immunities.

I wouldnt call it useless but another Mass Dispell to help healers is kinda nice.

Im not saying that our 87 ability is the best. I doenst have the impact like a WL gateway. And alot of stuff is pretty uselessfor PVE. From a raid pov its good, like you said mostly defensiv and utility like HoJ on Council for example. the MD from hunter is pretty useless i give you that one. but the rest of pve its kinda useless, and the problem beeing some stuff is tuned way to low, i mean why the fuck would anyone give symbiosis to a SP the heal from tranq is so low that before 5.2 it was better for the SP just to heal and even now its a bit better or a ret with wraht. Consecration doies almost 0 dmg.

The problem is again pve vs pvp, if you make it really good for pve with the stuff you gain or the other class gains it will be useless in pvp and the other way around.

Its a situational ability which I think fits perfectly to our class. Could be alot better even the way it is now, like spell reflect from warriors is useless for tanks. But most of the other classes also gained utility some even worse than ours. But tbh if you dont raid its kinda useless overall.

[boochicken]

What I find confusing is that come 5.4 resto will gain 2 spells at 87, as that's where they get Genesis. They should make Genesis for the other 3 specs too and get rid of symb or rework it to come into the class at a lower level. I'd be really upset to lose my spiritwalkers grace+tranquility but I'd rather a decent 87 spell.

I did have the thought that they should swap HotW and symb because HotW screams hybrid, then the 6% stats would have to be moved to symb so that someone chooses it over NV and DoC.

[Aboubacar]

A lot of things being mentioned here don't really make sense for the spell. It's a direct link between you and the receiver so there should be a range limit, a party limitation all of that. An actual quality of life change would be making symbiosis not fall off when your target respecs. This would be soo nice if I didn't have to recast it 3 times before an arena or boss fight b/c ppl are changing glyphs.

A lot of talk about "I find x spell useless". The spell was supposed to give you an edge in a huge array of situations so there could be a spell that, in the future becomes better for you.

Here's all the 100% useless symbiosis spells granted/received:

Windwalker Monk gains Bear hug
Mistweaver Monk gains entangling roots
Spriest tranquility

***Guardian druid gains life tap from a warlock? not sure if this is a joke
Feral deathcoil from DK
Feral Spirits that heal for 2 Hp and do 2 damage

Barkskin for prot pally and savage defense for prot warriors pretty junk as well due to resource cost.

Reviewing the list somehow resto got all of the good spells. Guardian really got shafted and feral/boomkin have a few spells that are rarely useful but some stronger choices.

---------- Post added 2013-06-24 at 11:03 AM ----------

If you think about symbiosis like a mutual relationship between 2 species in Biology, a feral druid would have no desire to live alongside a resto shaman because they don't really gain anything of value by coexisting.

[Manabomb]

Leveling a character and hitting 87 for most classes is a milestone in feeling the change in power lvl as you progress through the game. Most classes gain amazingly powerful abilities that really define the class from the moment they hit lvl 87 and gain access to their new ability. However, when a druid hits 87 there is no immediate change in the druid play style. I love the idea of symbiosis, it is definitely a word that comes to mind when I think 'Druid' but in its current form it brings to mind the word 'dependent'.

I would like to see a rework to the way symbiosis works. It is the most lackluster lvl 87 ability of any class yet at the same time the most versatile. The problem is that it is a completely non functioning spell when by yourself and limits pvp comps that Druids can work well in. I would like to see symbiosis reworked to be an ability that grants an additional talent regardless if you have a team mate to cast it on or not.

Perhaps something along the lines of being able to cast it on self and depending on which specialization you are you would have different choices to choose from. You could even work in a smaller passive buff to those in party/raid similar to the choice you would pick.

One way this could be done is creating 3 ability options per the 4 specializations Druids can choose. So instead of gaining symbiosis with another player you would gain, for example, symbiosis with the forest as one of the options for resto, increasing max charges on force of nature by X. It would be tough to balance the viability of each of the 3 options for each specialization but would give Druids a huge QoL buff and really make the talent stand out much more similar in the way other class' lvl 87 talents stand out.

So what do you guys think?

---------- Post added 2013-06-21 at 08:59 PM ----------

Ib4 tldr /10char

Tbh, while Symbiosis is not as game changing as say Soul Reaper is for deathknights below 35% or gaming 50% haste buff from adds that die quick, it is definitely nice to be able to pick and choose things the raid could use to it's benefit. An extra tranq on a spriest, an extra life grip for the resto druids. Lot's of game changers in that respect and honestly having multiple druid is a game changer in most raids.

Just know it could be much, much worse and you could have an ability like voidshift, which is completely lackluster in pve usability and has been nerfed to the floor in pvp, or "blinding light" who's only use for pve circles the drain somewhere along with rogues blind.

So on a personal level, I'll agree with you, symbiosis is fairly lack luster, but that does not deny it's power and usability as well as utility in any of the games ending content such as raiding, arenas, rbgs and 5 man dungeons/challenge modes that requires other classes to accomplish.

Also the limit of arena comps is laughable, seeing as feral hunter healer is quite common yet dash to the hunter and play dead on the druid just isn't so great, and the healer doesn't matter seeing as priest gives dispersion to the feral, paladin gives shield and shaman gives burst wolves. This can be said the same for a lot of druid ready comps, you have options. Use them.

Are you balanced around such advantages, arguably no. Should you be? Again no, but again I still am with the ball park of sharing "nerfed" versions of the spells instead of the spells full version in most cases.

[asb]

I agree the ability could use some QoL attention. It's a fun ability but it's very restrictive for a solo player and in a seemingly unnecessary way. I feel like symbiosis as more of a buff and less of a link would just be more enjoyable. My vision for it would drop the party and range requirements. If you encounter another player e.g. at a quest hub after reaching lv 87, you should be able to try out a symbiosis on them and keep it for the full duration regardless of the target ranging you, logging out, etc.

It would be nice to have this for max level, too. In random battlegrounds, you don't interact with the guy you symbiosis; you just cherrypick the ability you want out of your team's roster. There have been several instances of me dying because of this--I'll feel free to be pretty cheeky with my positioning, knowing that I can fall back on iceblock if I need it. Unnoticed by me, this random mage left the battleground while I was busy healing people and I have lost the safety net I was counting on. I feel like it's unfitting to make this such an intimate social ability while the game supports battlegrounds, dungeons, and raids with strangers that you can't count on to even stay in the group.

[Viromand]

Windwalker Monk gains Bear hug

Was pretty nice on 4kings heroic and WotE hc, and still usefull on horridon hc.

Guardian druid gains life tap from a warlock? not sure if this is a joke

In 5.0 there was actually a number where using life tap to gain raige was really good cause FR would heal more, and also the WL gets rejuv that ticks very good. I even used it on some fights back than.

Barkskin for prot pally and savage defense for prot warriors

You have limited resources on prot in terms of AMs, your shield cant stack an shieldblock has a maximum uptime, and a high dodge change is very strong on alot of bosses. combined with parry.

Barkskin is not that bad for paladins ok its only 10%. But that 10% for one HP, so if you get a burst phase or big hit taking 10% less dmg is alot. So with 4HP you get 1 SotR and barkskin for additional 10% and barkskin also works against magic dmg. 10% of a 400k hit is still 40k dmg mitigatet.

Spriest tranquility, spirit wolves and mirror images

Yeah they really suck, spirit wolves suck too, dont know if the Images work exactly like the ones from mages but i quess not.

[ro9ue]

This is one of the most interesting and unique abilities put into the game. I wouldn't change a thing about it.

[Terridon]

I personally enjoy it a lot.
I agree there might be a few abilities that might have a look into, since they're too lackluster to be used.
But most can be used in different situations, and i enjoy that. Would be sad if they changed the overall idea of symbiosis.

[Kojo]

This is one of the most interesting and unique abilities put into the game. I wouldn't change a thing about it.

I would, there are 1 or 2 abilities per spec that are worth a damn and a sea of garbage, and of course the ones worth using have non-druids screaming for nerfs constantly so pretty soon it'll just be all garbage. And of course it would be nice if it was of ANY use when I'm alone..even a little.

[teddabear]

The implementation is truly idiotic. I'd love to hear some numbers from Blizzard on how ofen Symbiosis is used. It should let the Druid use whichever ability he wants any time. The bestow part could be limited to party only. Not only do you almost never get to use it but when you do try to use it in a raid you have to fight with the other Druids over who gets to Symbiosis whom.

[Dasani]

I don't think Symbiosis really needs changing to be honest. I mean compare it to something like a warlock's demon gates, those are really only useful in a group setting in specific fights and don't contribute much of anything when you are off soloing, except in very VERY rare circumstances like the green fire boss which is a unique solo boss encounter.

It is useful for both the druid AND the person it is cast on, and you can modify parts of your strategy around who the druid casts it on and how it'll affect either of them or both of them. Getting ice block as a druid for example is pretty freaking amazing.

I think the only thing i'd really change with it is choosing what abilities you got or gave out. Even if it was just the ability to select between the abilities you already get and give, but instead of having it depend on your spec, you just choose. I suppose it wouldn't be as fluid that way since right now you just cast it and you get a new ability you can use immediately, whereas if they changed it you'd have to pick something from a menu or whatever, but you really aren't mean to use it while fighting anyway. it's kind of something you setup before hand.

But really, it's fine as is. The warlock one is utility, the hunter one is just a little dps boost, especially after it's upcoming nerf to no longer include pet buffs/debuffs from stampede it'll be a very minor dps cooldown, etc. Symbiosis provides a pretty big variety of possibilities. It can provide damage, utility, healing, lots of different possibilities really. It's very versatile and I love it personally.

[Arkony]

i love sym on shamans

[Tarazet]

i love sym on shamans

As a Guardian (Lightning Shield) or Resto (Spiritwalker's Grace), absolutely.

[Othinsson]

Ice block rules on 10man Lei Shen, too.