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  1. #221
    Scarab Lord namelessone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spaace View Post
    The real reason people choose LFR is because they aren't good enough at the game to play.. and don't understand what a raider is..
    "Good enough" is an arbitrary bullshit measurement. Blizzard could tune raids so that you won't be "good enough" either, and suddenly you will be other side of the fence, crying how everything is too hard.
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  2. #222
    Stood in the Fire jd812's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeadmanWalking View Post
    So you would rather roll the die of LFR horrors for sub-par rewards than join the golden Age of raiding? This flies in the face of the ideal that everyone should be forced into raiding guilds that anti-LFR players want.

    If you are willing to do all the horrors involved in LFR rather than deal with a Guild that normal raids then logically there must be something wrong with the raiding guilds or you grew up and can't 24/7 wow any more.

    Perhaps raiding was always meant to be small groups of people who actually want to do that activity rather than thousands of people who are forced to join their guilds to see the content?
    dude you said it, exactly what i am thinking.
    i quit raiding back in 4.1, before lfr, and if it wasn't for lfr, then i wouldn't raid anything at all anymore

  3. #223
    Im only running LFR to get geared back and get back into raiding. Atleast I hope to get back into raiding, most guilds seem to be raiding later at night than I can do with my job.

  4. #224
    Herald of the Titans RoKPaNda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spaace View Post
    The real reason people choose LFR is because they aren't good enough at the game to play.. and don't understand what a raider is..


    "I can't find a guild..." is a terrible excuse... there are guilds everywhere, at all times, all needs.. You just need to find it, if you really want it. And KNOW what you're getting in to.
    I used to have your mindset too, and then I took several months off from the game and realized how silly my choice to be a hardcore raider really was. It's not about skill, it's about time commitment and willing to sacrifice yourself for your guild. The thing that most hardcore raiders in WoW post-Vanilla don't realize is that WoW, even on the high end, has always been a very casual game compared to the MMOs before it. Organization, time commitment, commitment to one's guild, a half decent attention span, and probably a little self loathing. Those are the things that make hardcore raiders, not some amazing skill that's missing from the majority of the population. I have nothing against people who choose to raid, I don't look down on them, but having been one of them I can look at raiding and say that it's really not worth it.

    So why do I, a former hardcore raider, choose to run LFR over join another raid guild? Because quite honestly I think it's beyond stupid to schedule huge blocks of time each week (and yeah, 3 hours 3-4 nights a week is a huge block of time for someone that works, believe it or not.) where I'm not allowed to do anything other than raid. Miss a couple raids over the course of a couple months? Huge guilt trip. I've never seen or been in a serious raid guild where this didn't happen. Even if my schedule was not super chaotic right now, even if I could fit a raid guild's schedule, I wouldn't do it. One of my biggest regrets with WoW is the amount of time that I spent raiding, because I have literally nothing to show for that time spent. Most of the time it wasn't even fun, it was for the "glory" of the guild and my friends in it. With LFR there are frustrating moments, but nothing _ever_ like bashing our heads against Kael'Thas for hours and hours and hours and hours day after day. It wasn't fun, and what do we have to show for that now? Not a damn thing.

  5. #225
    Can join lfr whenever i want.I come home from work 0:30 so kinda hard to find raiding guild.

  6. #226
    Moderator MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    This might be a wee off-topic so I'll keep it short(ish):

    One of the problems with raiding guilds and raiding generally is that for a long time now it's been rather difficult to break into it. Guilds that are actively raiding are generally uninterested in people new to raiding and social guilds as a rule don't usually make a lot of progress. And so here we are. Guild applications that are on occasion invasive both in terms of game and private life with requirements that essentially require one to be already successful. No growth. Mostly stagnation--at best--in the population for that content.

    My personal belief is that raiding at the normal/heroic level needs some new blood if it's going to survive much less thrive. But right now the air is pretty much completely squeezed out of that balloon. It's a bad thing for raiding specifically and the game generally. I don't see it changing really and that's a problem long-term...one that Blizzard isn't going to solve.

    Anyway, the long-range effect of this is to make raiding guilds unattractive for a lot of people. Why even really bother if you don't feel as if you're welcomed? Guilds really needed to change when LFR came along and mostly they didn't. In any case, things aren't going back to the way they were so the longer these attitudes persist, the worse it will eventually get. It's very much a community problem to solve. Staying quiet in the face of the general roar of hate for all things not normal/heroic raiding isn't going to cut it if you want to get people involved. People need a strong reason to rearrange their schedules to raid as it has been historically. Right now, they don't.
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  7. #227
    Stood in the Fire Kuul's Avatar
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    I don't. And I don't know anyone who would if they have any interest in raiding.

  8. #228
    Stood in the Fire jd812's Avatar
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    It just this thing called life that happens for people, there comes a point in a persons life, where their kids and wife is more important to them, than being online, playing a game, at a scheduled time, 2, 3, even 4 times a week. It is a game, i want to play the game at my leisure, when I get some me time, to immerse myself in another world and relax.

    Oh sorry dear, you and the kids gotta eat dinner without me tonight , I gotta raid, or sorry son, I can't go to your ball game tonight, I gotta raid, and many others, you know? So, without lfr , I wouldn't raid at all, and I am willing to bet neither would a lot of other people that play wow.

  9. #229
    High Overlord Dunker's Avatar
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    Good question. In no particular order -

    1. Time constraints. While the overall time it takes to clear LFR may be the same as a raiding night, I can do it whenever I want. Sometimes I find myself doing the last tier just before work on a Monday because I did not have time to do it before.

    2. Little drive to participate/deal with it. I was hardcore in Vanilla and TBC, broke during Wrath, and returned casually during Cata. It was here that I got in hardcore for awhile, but my girlfriend really pointed out to me all of the better things I could do with those 2-4 hours per night. (Not to mention she thought adhering to a schedule to play a video game was insane)

    3. Few friends, even harder to find them. I'm hoping this problem is somewhat alleviated in 5.4 with virtual realms, but I've had a hard time finding friends in Cataclysm and now MoP. Due to this, I have no interest in trying to find a guild with people I don't know. Most people I run into and befriend are like me, play when they can and do what they want, so it's hard to get groups together with that mindset.

    It used to be point 1 that was the most important, but 2 really stuck out to me. LFR is, in my opinion, fun. The challenge of getting together with various other people to try and down bosses just doesn't appeal to me anymore.

    Slightly aside: I wish they'd focus more on scenarios and phasing to move along older and newer zones with content structured for both casuals like me and hardcore people.

  10. #230
    No motivation to do more than LFR right now. It's easier and the only way I can enjoy playing all my alts during the week. The only benefit to going back to heroic raiding atm is higher ilvl gear and I don't care about it anymore.

  11. #231
    People choose LFR because getting into, and maintaining your position in a raiding guild is a lot harder than people seem to give credit for.

    Some of the people who give these opinions and judgements on LFR players are from a different time (such as that streamer guy preach), where you pretty much fell into raiding, people knew you, you could simply prove your ability and there's always doors open. These days, new players have a huge uphill struggle because realm community doesn't exist, people have to fight their way into guilds and that's only made harder by the abundance of 10m teams who only tend to recruit one or two very specific classes or roles.

    Judging the LFR playstyle of people is very narrow minded and usually a telltale sign of being completely unaware of what it's like getting into a guild. I personally have never had the issue, I've always been in top guilds, been much higher than I am now and much lower, but I can watch friends and other players constantly get knocked back by NORMAL MODE guilds they apply for because they're new, LFR wouldn't change that; that's just the horrible attitude a lot of guilds seem to have now.
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  12. #232
    Quote Originally Posted by Nemesiz View Post
    1. - Get a guild which raids 1-2 days á week.
    2. - Get a guild where quality in players is a factor.
    3. - Drama is just plain bad management.
    4. - Complain and/or find another guild. If nobody says anything officers / leaders won't become better.
    5. - Call it out and/or find another guild.
    6. - Call it out, tell the raid leader to calm down.
    7. - Make sure you find a guild which fits your schedule. i.e weekend raids etc.
    8. - Start a conversation with the person, it could be you who is wrong, though if not others are probably annoyed to.

    Basicly call stuff out if you're not satisfied with it, if not it will never become better. Though do so in a proper manner as to not piss everybody off by being provocative.

    Problems are seldom big problems when you look at the from a different angle.
    Finding a guild where 1 and 2 both apply is incredibly hard. Plus you can't simply call high-ranked people out on their shit and expect things to change, especially when you're lower ranked than they are. Things don't work that simple - not in real life/business, not in WoW.

    Anyway, LFR is a very watered down version of raiding, and I feel bad for the people who won't bother trying to find a raiding guild because their only experience with raiding so far (LFR) was such a let-down.

  13. #233
    High Overlord Miri's Avatar
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    I combine the 2 for various reasons. I run parts 3 & 4 of ToT LFR to get my Runes each week, especially if we've locked our raid ID for whatever reason. Otherwise, my main, which I raid lead on, doesn't set foot into LFR.

    LFR is a way for me to gear my alts. I have 3 of them that I sporadically run through various parts of LFR when I'm bored. LFR has just replaced me farming heroics on alts for VP like I did before DS dropped.

    I'd never choose to do LFR over a guild raid though, if I had a spot. And honestly, pretty much every member of my raid team runs LFR on the side for possible upgrades or in a mostly guild group. Once a week 5-6 people get a very speedy ToT Part 3 & 4 with no wipes, and they seem to love it.

  14. #234
    High Overlord Dunker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    People need a strong reason to rearrange their schedules to raid as it has been historically. Right now, they don't.
    I enjoyed the post, as usual, but I have to disagree with this part. It's my personal opinion that Blizzard needs to take a look at the fact that LFR is a popular method of raiding and build upon it.

    Even when I raided in Vanilla and TBC, I found the fact that Blizzard was one of the few games that required a multi-day schedule to participate in the most vaunted part of their game very strange. It is almost, in-and-of itself, self-defeating.

    As WoW continues to age, and it's barrier of entry continues to grow, I think the stagnation you mentioned will eventually turn to decline. Higher decline than what we've already seen, that is. As it stands, the raiding activity is the exact same now as it was in Vanilla and TBC when I did it- the bosses are just more difficult. The only thing that's changed is the addition of LFR as an option to see said content.

    GC mentioned recently that the people doing LFR were not people participating in normal and heroic raiding, but people who had never raided at all. That tells me something, honestly.

    My post was a bit all over the place, my opinions:
    1. Blizzard should focus on making raiding more accessible. Flex is, in my opinion, a start.
    2. Blizzard should focus on adding content for players who have time only for LFR.

    When they focus on raiding as the entirety of end game, it's troublesome. The gap between LFR players (2 hours, roughly, raiding requirement per week) to raiders (anywhere from 4-16 hours, sometimes more) there's a huge difference between time played. It's not surprising many players are bored and/or looking for more things to do. The problem is, normal and heroic raiding is not something that can fill that gap for them.
    Last edited by Dunker; 2013-06-23 at 11:27 PM.

  15. #235
    Quote Originally Posted by Norbac View Post
    If it were that easy, LFR would not exist.
    It is, LFR exists because of the current entitled adhd generation screaming bloody murder if they're not spoon fed everything, the tantrums they were throwing in public for that useless overpriced toy they would get bored of in an hour 10-15 years ago now ends up on public forums of games like WoW.

    Results are expansions like Cataclysm and features such as LFR.

  16. #236
    Pandaren Monk Ealyssa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AvatarM View Post
    If you think that you are really good, there are some heroic guilds that manage do heroics in 2 days, (4h/day)
    OMG ITS A LIE, ITS IMPOSSIBRU..

    http://www.wowprogress.com/guild/eu/.../Group+Therapy

    Group Therapy its possibly the best exemple, they raid 8 hours week in 2 days, and are EU 168 in WoWProgress and 13/13H as a 25 man guild.
    "between 15:00-19:00 server time" from their wowprogress

    Yeah clearly, everyone can be ready to raid @ 15pm... Sry to have a life. And raiding 8 hours in two session is hardly what I call a raisonnable amount of time. Raiding only two day but stretching the raid time is hardly going the "more focus, less playtime" way.

  17. #237
    Moderator MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dunker View Post
    I enjoyed the post, as usual, but I have to disagree with this part. It's my personal opinion that Blizzard needs to take a look at the fact that LFR is a popular method of raiding and build upon it.
    Thanks for that. The genesis of that thought was the social aspect of raiding which when really good is one of the best things in the game and for me at least a reason to drop what I'm doing to make time for it. That won't work for everyone of course and I didn't mean to suggest that it did.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dunker View Post
    Even when I raided in Vanilla and TBC, I found the fact that Blizzard was one of the few games that required a multi-day schedule to participate in the most vaunted part of their game very strange. It is almost, in-and-of itself, self-defeating.

    As WoW continues to age, and it's barrier of entry continues to grow, I think the stagnation you mentioned will eventually turn to decline. Higher decline than what we've already seen, that is. As it stands, the raiding activity is the exact same now as it was in Vanilla and TBC when I did it- the bosses are just more difficult. The only thing that's changed is the addition of LFR as an option to see said content.
    Depending on how things go with virtual realms, it could get better as there will be more people to choose from at first. I really hope that flex-raiding brings back pugs which I didn't mention in the other post. Pugs were really important in that unattached people could use that to get into raiding if they were lucky and/or persistent. LFR, not unexpectedly, has hurt pugs; on some realms quite a lot. But for flex-raiding to help with anything, guilds at the normal/heroic level need to use it for tryouts, etc. or at the very least accept the achievement as meaningful and not dismiss the player as some insect. Whether or not that's going to happen is still really an open question and one about which I'm not optimistic. I really don't believe at this point that 'fixing' raiding to get new people into it is anything that Blizzard can really affect in any profound way. Not with the game shrinking as it certainly will over the rest of the expansion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dunker View Post
    My post was a bit all over the place, my opinions:
    1. Blizzard should focus on making raiding more accessible. Flex is, in my opinion, a start.
    2. Blizzard should focus on adding content for players who have time only for LFR.

    When they focus on raiding as the entirety of end game, it's troublesome. The gap between LFR players (2 hours, roughly, raiding requirement per week) to raiders (anywhere from 4-16 hours, sometimes more) there's a huge difference between time played. It's not surprise many players are bored and/or looking for more things to do. The problem is, normal and heroic raiding is not something that can fill that gap for them.
    Agree with this entirely. Right now, all of the end game eggs are in the raiding basket and that's a potential problem. I understand how this happened at the design level but a lot of the other end game activities available are niche things, i.e. challenge modes. I like how scenarios are evolving but they don't really fill up the hole that most people feel with no new 5-mans. Some scenarios that involve more than three people would be welcome as well as perhaps taking some world bosses and creating 40-person scenarios around them.

    Anyway, a pleasure. Have a great rest-of-the-weekend.
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  18. #238
    Quote Originally Posted by spaace View Post
    The real reason people choose LFR is because they aren't good enough at the game to play.. and don't understand what a raider is..


    "I can't find a guild..." is a terrible excuse... there are guilds everywhere, at all times, all needs.. You just need to find it, if you really want it. And KNOW what you're getting in to.
    On my server there's 144 raiding guilds overall. A lot of them is dead, or barely moving.
    All in all theres something like 60-70 active guilds that raids.
    It's not that many to chose between if you have a set schedule that doesn't fit very well with the usual raidtimes on our server being between 18-00.
    Specially if you're picky enough to want people you like, have the same mindset as you, are on your lvl skillwise etc.
    We're afaik, the raid with the least weekly hours, and if we wanted just half an hour more, we would have to say bye to a couple of players. So we're kinda the last option for them for a real raid.

    And before you go "you could change server", it's not that much an option if you actually like people on your server. you switch if it's your main concern in wow, to raid. To a lot it's just something that is fun to do with friends. Moving to another server to raid with strangers isn't an option.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ealyssa View Post
    "between 15:00-19:00 server time" from their wowprogress

    Yeah clearly, everyone can be ready to raid @ 15pm... Sry to have a life. And raiding 8 hours in two session is hardly what I call a raisonnable amount of time. Raiding only two day but stretching the raid time is hardly going the "more focus, less playtime" way.
    His point was you don't need to raid 3-4 times pr week to get into harder content, not that the particular raid didn't fit your schedule :P
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  19. #239
    Simple logic, path of least resistance. Normal mode is now the "HARD MODE" and LFR has become the norm. You can see the decline of interest in normal raiding when LFR was released in Cata. I was a loyal guildie who made time for progression raiding in normal and hard modes. After the guild moved I decided not to do normal/hard mode raiding anymore because I originally join the guild to see END content and get unique gear. Plus it was fun playing with people I came to know and respect. Problem is, it takes a lot of work to get into a good progression raiding guild. Very few people will do that kind of work now to basically see the same content and get the same gear with a few extra stats and a different color.

    I was a loyal WOW subscriber for 8 years. I have now decided to only pay when new content/bosses are released and kill them before my Month subscription runs out then go to my new home D&D Neverwinter.
    Last edited by xoneal; 2013-06-23 at 11:56 PM.

  20. #240
    Stood in the Fire jd812's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xoneal View Post
    Simple logic, path of least resistance. Normal mode is now the "HARD MODE" and LFR has become the norm. You can see the decline of interest in normal raiding when LFR was released back in WOTLK
    lfr came out in 4.3

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