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  1. #301
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Iron Fist View Post
    True, but my point is if you are goingt o put that much effort into NM raiding, you might as well just do HMs because its not THAT much more effort. The jump from LFR to NM is far larger than the jump from NM to HM.

    My fairly accurate graph

    Difficulty
    Easy-----------------------------------------------------------------------------Hard
    LFR-------------------------------------------------------NM---------HM
    Yes, and that's a problem, because everyone who is capable of doing NM right now is also a potential HM raider who isn't raiding HM for some reason.

    And I said earlier, normal modes in this expansion are too hard, and you said "pish check out T11 yo."

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-23 at 11:10 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by AvatarM View Post
    most non-raiders probably spend more time waiting in queue and doing LFR that I spend raiding. And there we are, they don't try normals cause they don't need to.
    You can push that LFR button at any time, and leave the instance at any time, and no one is going to miss you or gkick you.

  2. #302
    Quote Originally Posted by Normie View Post
    Yes, and that's a problem, because everyone who is capable of doing NM right now is also a potential HM raider who isn't raiding HM for some reason.

    And I said earlier, normal modes in this expansion are too hard, and you said "pish check out T11 yo."
    Then there are those with the capability but just cant get a PuG group going or commit to a guild and only have LFR which is very underwhelming in comparison. So now Blizzard is introducing flex modes for the casuals who want to try but get screwed over in the forming group parts. We shall see how that will go. It seems Blizzard wants to stick enough carrots on Flex to move players away from LFR and Blizzard believes these casuals will have a better experience than LFR.

    GC pretty much already said that LFD has had some notable negative effects to the point that they had to change development due to how much faster players could gear up and burn out on dungeons and run out of things to do than they could previously which is why Blizzard moved to LFR and its weekly lockout compared to LFDs almost unlimited runs. Blizzard wouldnt be spending development resources on flex mode and brand new rewards for flex and up if they thought everyone in LFR was happy.

    The developers said it flat out that normal modes this expansion is going to be made harder primary because they want to make them for guild groups only and players have LFR to fall back on if they cant cut it. PuG groups still give Blizzard the finger and do them and those who cant cut it or get a group get fucked and shoved into LFR which is trivial and mindless in comparison to even Naxx 2.0.
    Last edited by nekobaka; 2013-06-24 at 07:24 AM.

  3. #303
    Quote Originally Posted by Normie View Post
    Yes, and that's a problem, because everyone who is capable of doing NM right now is also a potential HM raider who isn't raiding HM for some reason.

    And I said earlier, normal modes in this expansion are too hard, and you said "pish check out T11 yo."

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-23 at 11:10 PM ----------


    You can push that LFR button at any time, and leave the instance at any time, and no one is going to miss you or gkick you.
    What kind of guild you guys were? Our rogue, was in a new project at work, he needed 2-3 weeks almost not coming to raid. Thats why we have 12-13 ppls in the raid. I already told, if you don't wanna socialize, you are playing the wrong game.

    When I am playing soccer, I can't just simple leave, and let mine friends without a player. WoW is the same thing, is a social game. If you don't like social games, just play a singe player RPG. Or keep on LFR, but its not anyone's fault. You are anti-social.

  4. #304
    Quote Originally Posted by DeadmanWalking View Post
    A lot of anti-LFR people keep saying that players are leaving raiding guilds because they can get the same stuff in LFR. What you actually get in LFR is;

    Healer 10-15 min queue, Dps 20-60 min queue.
    Potential of;
    tank fail due to pvp gear
    Heal fail due to healers being in dips spec because they were too good for dps queues.
    DPS fail because of not following the mechanics that they know better than to do (AOE on DWing thumb)
    Unenchanted/ungemmed/unforged/wrong gear/no knowledge of class/no knowledge of the encounter
    Afk players
    Players barely trying
    People who grief you because they are 1 in 8 million and no consequences.
    Booted just because someone said "Kick X because of bad DPS!" When you were a healer.
    DPS in tank spec
    Huntards killing you with misdirect for shits and giggles
    People screaming at you for tanking wrong
    People screaming
    SUB-PAR crappy versions of LFR gear.

    And through all of this crap that is the random bundle that we call LFR people STILL choose to abandon Raid Guilds for LFR, so why?
    Though most of those negatives are true, these scenarios usually onlz manifest themselves later in the wee roughly Thursday onward and grow exponentially. I almost always hit up LFR on a Tuesday or Wednesday and skip almost everything but the queue, I dont find the gear that bad for what you put in to get it.

    the 60 min que's have work arounds ie have a tank friend, tank yourself or use a sceanrio to hold your spot until you are ready to do a LFR not when a LFR is ready for you.

    As for why I do LFR over normal raids, as many have stated time commitment. i can get in about 10 hours of wow max a week and those vary weekly on when and how long. I just dont have time to commit to a fix raid time. Also I play from Europe as I moved here last sept and on US realm so its middle of the day when I am free to raid...aka not really going to happen.

  5. #305
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    Quote Originally Posted by AvatarM View Post
    What kind of guild you guys were? Our rogue, was in a new project at work, he needed 2-3 weeks almost not coming to raid. Thats why we have 12-13 ppls in the raid. I already told, if you don't wanna socialize, you are playing the wrong game.

    When I am playing soccer, I can't just simple leave, and let mine friends without a player. WoW is the same thing, is a social game. If you don't like social games, just play a singe player RPG. Or keep on LFR, but its not anyone's fault. You are anti-social.
    These days, I find that reselling underpriced items on the AH is a gratifying form of socializing.

  6. #306
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by spaace View Post
    The real reason people choose LFR is because they aren't good enough at the game to play.. and don't understand what a raider is..
    Congrats on not having any clue of what you are talking about.

  7. #307
    Quote Originally Posted by Normie View Post
    You can push that LFR button at any time, and leave the instance at any time, and no one is going to miss you or gkick you.
    Also you are not going to be yelled at for being the wrong class or spec... or not using the addon the raid leader said you had to... or using voice chat... or not having consumables... or not showing up for a week, a month or 3 months...

    Do I really need to point out the obvious?

  8. #308
    Deleted
    not having to deal with schedules
    not having to deal with guild politics, rules, forced voice communication
    not having to sit down for hours in a single evening, banging your head against a single boss

    these 3 factors alone are more than enough for me not wanting to go back to organized raiding anymore.

  9. #309
    The answer is just plain simple. There is not a single guild in this game that would raid like i'd like to raid.
    That being, clearing all current heroic progress or farm content on wednesday after reset in 6-8 hours without any drama or fighting within the guild or raid and then have the rest of the week free to do whatever, play or not to play.
    For drama matter, drama free guilds don't exist cause people are bound to argue, which is something i can't comprehend even in real life so i walk away.
    LFR offers the time frame although the content ain't heroic and the drama is unvoidable, but at least you get the rest of the week to do whatever, so it's not perfect but close enough.

  10. #310
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    Quote Originally Posted by spaace View Post
    The real reason people choose LFR is because they aren't good enough at the game to play.. and don't understand what a raider is..
    Not at all. I raided at a high level in BC and LK. The real reason is that my gameplay is limited to at most 2 hours in the evening now - just enough to log and do a wing of LFR + some other stuff.

    Quote Originally Posted by spaace View Post
    "I can't find a guild..." is a terrible excuse... there are guilds everywhere, at all times, all needs.. You just need to find it, if you really want it. And KNOW what you're getting in to.
    You could say I'm slightly perfectionist - I don't see the point of raiding "a bit". I either raid full throttle (like I did for 3 years), or just chill in LFR.

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-24 at 11:48 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Zergal View Post
    It is, LFR exists because of the current entitled adhd generation screaming bloody murder if they're not spoon fed everything, the tantrums they were throwing in public for that useless overpriced toy they would get bored of in an hour 10-15 years ago now ends up on public forums of games like WoW.
    Yet apparently you don't mind using it on your alts. Go figure.

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-24 at 11:51 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by AvatarM View Post
    If you don´t wanna socialize, don´t play an MMO.
    There is a big difference between "raiding" and "socializing", you know.

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-24 at 11:55 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by AvatarM View Post
    (2)Server population is not a excuse. Server Transfer is there for it. If you guys are working so much that don't have time to raid, you probably have a lot of money.
    People who work a lot tend to not throw money on stuff like that. Not to mention people with families.
    Especially when it's about several characters.
    Virtual realms will be a nice addition in that respect however. Can't wait to see how it works out.

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-24 at 11:56 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by david0925 View Post
    As for normal mode bosses. I don't really know the caliber of MoP, but in Cata they die within 3 tries for us, with only Cho'gal taking a whole night because our only snare-er for the blood being a pug hunter, lol, with about half the raiders reading up o mechanics. So it's pretty forgiving.
    Normal is tuned higher in MOP than in Cata. Especially compared to DS.
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  11. #311
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomana View Post
    You could say I'm slightly perfectionist - I don't see the point of raiding "a bit". I either raid full throttle (like I did for 3 years), or just chill in LFR.
    This is kind of spot on. For me normal mode is raiding "a bit". Right now LFR is chill way to see the content in a desired time frame and close enough manner.
    I'll admit that the full throttle is exhausting and one of the reasons why i quit hardcore raiding was simply burnout, which is what blizzard wants to avoid driving hc raiders to, but in my opinion is also the only real way to raid, all or nothing there's no in between for said perfectionists.

    For me the burnout wasn't so much about the game or the content, it's the burnout from the social enviroment, people are simply exhausting to play with when they argue. As i said before, drama free guilds don't exist. During the 8 years in the game I've played in 1 casual raiding guild, 1 semi hardcore raiding guild and 2 world top notch guilds, the discipline and officer structure is totally different in the hc scene, but the drama is all the same no matter how much guild rules state no drama allowed, people argue and fight, it might not be about loot, it might not even be about the game, but people always find a topic. Even right now i'm in a 3 person guild with only 2 people that i'm very close friends irl and even they manage create drama between each other, where does that leave me at times, playing alone in a completely different zone and logged out of vent.

    I don't blame people for creating the drama, for some that's the socializing and fun part of the game. Just not for me, that's why i simply walk away. For me the fun in raiding comes from military precision tactics that has been researched even before the first pull on a boss. And then flawless execution, it's like a dance. You don't need a raid leader yelling out with veins popping if mistakes are made. It's a well oiled machine a steam train rolling forward to the unavoidable death of a boss at it's best.
    Last edited by Redecle; 2013-06-24 at 10:42 AM.

  12. #312
    If a raider stops raiding because he can get "the same stuff" in LFR, then he wasn't a raider in the first place.

    Similarly, if LFR killed your raiding guild, you never had a raiding guild.

    Raiding is about pushing yourself, not hoovering up purples. Quit bitching just because your piece of shit guild can't hang onto it's players.

  13. #313
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    I changed cause I no longer have the time I had to play at a higher level. So LFR will do me just fine.
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  14. #314
    Commitment, expectation and drama.

    I refuse to commit to a schedule in my free time. I want to do whatever I find fun in my free time. Schedules are for work. If there's something nice on TV, I don't want to have to turn it off, because it's raid night. I don't want to tell my husband I'm incredibly horny, but can't have sex right now, because I have to raid for the next 3 hours. I want to login to WoW and play and alt, instead of raiding that night. I could make a schedule work, as I have a steady daytime job, but I don't want to.

    Guild members expect you to be there when you say you will. They also expect you to fill in for someone who can't come, or to change spec because they really need a healer tonight, etc. They expect you to do your dailies, get VP, buy gear and consumables, reforge, gem and enchant, read about your class, practice your rotation, watch videos on bosses, etc. I don't want that. I play for fun. I find it fun to have the perfect reforge, gems and enchants and be able to do top dps, so usually I live up to that expectation, but sometimes I just don't feel like putting in the effort. Sometimes I go weeks with a piece of non-enchanted gear, because I can't be bothered to check what enchant I would need.

    Drama, oh yes, every guild has it. Always a friend of the GM who gets special treatment, or the girl of the raidleader who really sucks but HAS to come, or people who get upset because someone else got loot, or people that you geared for weeks suddenly leave for a different guild, etc. Always drama, everywhere. And you try to ignore it and you try to keep the peace, because you really want to raid or do dungeons or whatever, but in the end it just breaks you up.

    LFR requires non of that. I just join in when I feel like it and leave when I feel like it. I do the laundry mid-bossfight and no one cares (well, I did kill 5 people with cinder, but then again, why didn't THEY move?). Sometimes people cause a bit of drama in the raid, but it doesn't matter. We kick or don't kick, I put them on ignore and I'll never see them again. And I still get to see the bosses, experience raiding and get some nice gear progression.

  15. #315
    Quote Originally Posted by DeadmanWalking View Post
    What you actually get in LFR is;

    Healer 10-15 min queue, Dps 20-60 min queue.
    Potential of;
    tank fail due to pvp gear
    Heal fail due to healers being in dips spec because they were too good for dps queues.
    DPS fail because of not following the mechanics that they know better than to do (AOE on DWing thumb)
    Unenchanted/ungemmed/unforged/wrong gear/no knowledge of class/no knowledge of the encounter
    Afk players
    Players barely trying
    People who grief you because they are 1 in 8 million and no consequences.
    Booted just because someone said "Kick X because of bad DPS!" When you were a healer.
    DPS in tank spec
    Huntards killing you with misdirect for shits and giggles
    People screaming at you for tanking wrong
    People screaming
    SUB-PAR crappy versions of LFR gear.
    Most of it, however, can be negated by turning off instance chat and leaving raid any moment when you don't feel like continuing with those people. Well, not so much in other raid modes :) And in other raid modes you have to deal with scheduling + deal with some awkward attitude which blooms in successful raid guilds.
    not having to sit down for hours in a single evening, banging your head against a single boss
    This is also... strange. While I understand there should be "challenge", but how it stands in game (especially being based on arcade mechanics), that's meh... And there is no choice in raids (I am not even speaking of any exploration - one of basic elements in RPG - it is totally absent in raids and dungeons nowadays). It's like some tunnel, and if you are stuck at some point, you don't start discussing where to go instead, you either move further in tunnel or not. And, seriously, there are much more interesting things to do than spending hours "progressing" through tunnel's brickwall.

    Personally, I didn't choose LFR over Raid Guilds. Just so happened, that server became dead, so... maybe 5.4 will fix that. But being free from raiding, I start to become less and less enthusiastic about coming back to what raiding is now. Current raiding is like drugs, and if you don't use those drugs you can clearly see what's wrong with whole WoW endgame now and how it affects things below max level.
    Last edited by Ferocity; 2013-06-24 at 10:54 AM.

  16. #316
    I cant comprehend LFR being fun to anyone... I can understand if people dont have time to raid full time.. . but then just find a different game /quit? I just cant see any enjoyment in being able to kill bosses with ur eyes closed. :S Do you feel like you achieve something? or do you just do it because you dont want to quit wow but have nothing else to do?
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  17. #317
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    Quote Originally Posted by namelessone View Post
    "Good enough" is an arbitrary bullshit measurement. Blizzard could tune raids so that you won't be "good enough" either, and suddenly you will be other side of the fence, crying how everything is too hard.
    Hahaha. It's funny people view killing a raid boss as some kind of "real" achievement. Those raid bosses are designed to be killed. Blizzard doesn't "set the bar" and challenge players to kill a raid boss, they tuned raid bosses to ensuring players can kill them - and nerf bat the bosses if they aren't getting the kill numbers they want.

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-24 at 11:03 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Chrispotter View Post
    I cant comprehend LFR being fun to anyone... I can understand if people dont have time to raid full time.. . but then just find a different game /quit? I just cant see any enjoyment in being able to kill bosses with ur eyes closed. :S Do you feel like you achieve something? or do you just do it because you dont want to quit wow but have nothing else to do?
    So of us have "low expectations".

    I can't stand wiping for hours at bosses. I get sleepy from the lack of "interesting content" staring at the same 4 walls of the boss room and the same boss (and adds) for hours on end. It's just not worth it for me.
    Last edited by SodiumChloride; 2013-06-24 at 11:03 AM.

  18. #318
    Deleted
    Now, I'm not a perticular fan of LFR, but I don't hate it either. For the majority of my time playing WoW, I have been in a raiding guild, but recently with some developments in my IRL life, I was forced to step down from my raiding spot.

    I must say that I was grateful that LFR was there, so I had something that resembled raiding while I couldn't with my guild. It's nice to sitll be able to see the content - which can be a challenge with some pugs.

    That said, as soon as I can, I do plan to 'drop' LFR again, and go back to guild raiding. But I can see the charm in LFR.

  19. #319
    Quote Originally Posted by Phasma View Post
    1. Loot distribution system (LFR isn't biased when choosing who gets loot; Every DKP system has at least one loophole since everyone in the raid doesn't need the same loot)
    Holy paladin raiding was so fun.
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  20. #320
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    It's easy.

    I want to see the story without fucking around matching someone else's timeframe.

    Everyone wants to get it done. No frigging around for 30 minutes between boss attempts because one of the healers is a mother with a baby and apparently it's 24 other peoples' job to wait around for her.

    I already have a job.

    The whole raiding to a schedule thing stopped being fun about 7 years ago when I was in my early twenties.

    LFR is awesome. See fights. Have just enough coordination that you can't fall asleep, not so much that mouth breathers can drag everyone down. Get shinies or don't.

    Good fun. Something to do.
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