1. #1
    Field Marshal mat cauthon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    Behind you.
    Posts
    93

    lookin to improve

    After getting out of ToT lastnight and using shadowcraft to redo my reforging I noticed that the SC sim dps for my toon is quite a bit higher then my actual dps, I do understand that the sim dps is typically based on ideal situations and most fights are far from ideal, and being the raid leader and one calling things out is far from ideal when trying to maxamize dps. But the difference seems rather substantial compared to how i feel it should be.

    I feel as if im doing something wrong and im not quite sure what, ive always accounted myself a good rogue but id much rather be considered an exceptional assassin. If any of you wouldnt mind taking a couple minutes to browse logs from last night and see if you can tell what im doing wrong or what i should be doing that im not it would be a huge help

    Armory- http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...3%A1t/advanced
    Logs jinrohk to megera- http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-ni...9g7/details/5/
    Last edited by mat cauthon; 2013-06-23 at 10:07 PM.

  2. #2
    all i can say is shadowcraft is calculating DPS under Perfekt conditions it doesn't factor in mistakes and is calculation from patchwork fights where you stick to the boss the entire time
    my shadowcraft is simming me at 192k dps the nearest dps i got is 191k on twins i have to say i got lucky that try all my trinket proces kinda lined up with my CD's
    Last edited by Koji2k11; 2013-06-22 at 09:45 PM.
    the ultimate answer's to all rogue issues in MoP:

    -Reroll another class, who wants rougue's anyway.
    -Diablo 3 Sold 15 Million Copys
    -Haste will fix it
    -Rogue's are fine

  3. #3
    Field Marshal mat cauthon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    Behind you.
    Posts
    93
    i would be happy with that but im noticing on fights without big buffs (ie not jinrohk) or fights with alot or aoe (horridon & tortos) my numbers are 15-30k shy of that number sometimes... i can live with 5-10k short on account of situational stuff and having to split focus between actually fighting and being the call guy, but im not at all happy with my current numbers : \

  4. #4
    Actualy you shold have even higher dps than shadowcraft sugests on most Tot fights since you can cleave and aoe. For example shadowcraft shows 220k for my rogue. On consorts i manage to pull of 232k since i can rupture Suen every time she casts tears of the sun and do the same thing to Lu'lin in the last phase (exept when she casts Tidal force). Little things like this give you alot of extra dps.

  5. #5
    Field Marshal mat cauthon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    Behind you.
    Posts
    93
    i thought aside from when we have 5+ targets our aoe is fairly... well dismal?... as far as the multi target rupture do you know of any addons that would track that on different targets? i use weak auras to track on my current target but i dont really know of any way to track what i have on other non targeted mobs without setting up a different aura for every mob im wanting to track, which understandably is a bit excessive.

    and cleaving aside i should still be closer to that number on single target fights, no i may not reach it but i should be alot closer then i have been getting >.>

  6. #6
    For tracking rupure and deadly posion ( important since rupture is useless w/o it) i use weak auras for focus and/or tidy plates to be able to see the debuffs on the name plates. 2-3 targets rupture cleaveing is a huge dps increase. 4 targets you can rupture 3 and fok during envenom buff. Our cleave is quite strong :P.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by mat cauthon View Post
    i thought aside from when we have 5+ targets our aoe is fairly... well dismal?... as far as the multi target rupture do you know of any addons that would track that on different targets? i use weak auras to track on my current target but i dont really know of any way to track what i have on other non targeted mobs without setting up a different aura for every mob im wanting to track, which understandably is a bit excessive.

    and cleaving aside i should still be closer to that number on single target fights, no i may not reach it but i should be alot closer then i have been getting >.>
    You shouldn't really need to track Rupture or other buffs on various targets, because there's never a situation where you want to Rupture a second target without balancing DPS on both - unless MoP has some new mechanic that I haven't seen yet. You always either burn the targets in order (in which case you shouldn't be multi-dotting), or DPS several targets equally.

    My method is simply to swap to the next target in the rotation after refreshing the debuffs on the current target. If you find that you have extra time to envenom between refreshes, then use Envenom on the target next in line to be refreshed.

    You can get a feel for how many targets you can sustain by taking the length of Rupture (24s) and dividing by the amount of mobs. Taking 5-6 seconds as the average time to build 5 combo points you can safely sustain 4 targets. Your mileage may vary, of course, but you should never need to actually track anything outside the current target.

    In the end it becomes even easier to multi-dot than it is to do a normal rotation, because it's incredibly predictable. With a bit of practice on the target dummies it feels natural.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Synexlol View Post
    You shouldn't really need to track Rupture or other buffs on various targets, because there's never a situation where you want to Rupture a second target without balancing DPS on both - unless MoP has some new mechanic that I haven't seen yet. You always either burn the targets in order (in which case you shouldn't be multi-dotting), or DPS several targets equally.
    That's not strictly correct: the most important aspect of rupture is the energy gains when applied. If you take something that has a priority you want that energy to burn that mob faster than the rest. For example, on council burning sul faster by applying rupture on frost king. Sure the extra dps is great on frost king but the main aim is to gain that energy faster by tab rupturing and prioritising sul.

    The same can be said for horridon (depending on what strategy), megeara(barely but still a little), twin consorts, etc.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by theherecy View Post
    That's not strictly correct: the most important aspect of rupture is the energy gains when applied. If you take something that has a priority you want that energy to burn that mob faster than the rest. For example, on council burning sul faster by applying rupture on frost king. Sure the extra dps is great on frost king but the main aim is to gain that energy faster by tab rupturing and prioritising sul.

    The same can be said for horridon (depending on what strategy), megeara(barely but still a little), twin consorts, etc.
    You'd lose 2 Mutilates and an Envenom, up to 10+ (very roughly; maybe more, maybe less?) poison procs, and an entire Envenom on the main target every 24 seconds. This comes with the reward of 90 energy over 24 seconds. 2 Mutilates alone cost 110 energy so you are already at a loss before you even count the loss of Envenom uptime, poison procs, and auto attacks. You should not be multi-dotting if you are burning a target, and if you are you probably shouldn't be in the progression team.

    edit: It could be worth it when you have Redirect available. With a focus Rupture macro you could apply it without losing any uptime on the main target. But is 90 energy worth more than an Envenom? I'm inclined to say no but I am out of touch with current theory so if you can back this part up that would be great.
    Last edited by Synexlol; 2013-06-23 at 04:10 PM.

  10. #10
    Mechagnome -Raer-'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    The Matrix
    Posts
    600
    Quote Originally Posted by Synexlol View Post
    You'd lose 2 Mutilates and an Envenom, up to 10+ (very roughly; maybe more, maybe less?) poison procs, and an entire Envenom on the main target every 24 seconds. This comes with the reward of 90 energy over 24 seconds. 2 Mutilates alone cost 110 energy so you are already at a loss before you even count the loss of Envenom uptime, poison procs, and auto attacks. You should not be multi-dotting if you are burning a target, and if you are you probably shouldn't be in the progression team.

    edit: It could be worth it when you have Redirect available. With a focus Rupture macro you could apply it without losing any uptime on the main target. But is 90 energy worth more than an Envenom? I'm inclined to say no but I am out of touch with current theory so if you can back this part up that would be great.
    It's been proven before that while 2 Rupture cleaving is a DPS gain overall, it's not a single target gain. I'll try to find the post, but the logic is that if you can and the damage is valid (ie NOT Magaera) do it. Unless you have some other assignment like interrupting Sul/Horridon adds.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Leyowin View Post
    It's been proven before that while 2 Rupture cleaving is a DPS gain overall, it's not a single target gain. I'll try to find the post, but the logic is that if you can and the damage is valid (ie NOT Magaera) do it. Unless you have some other assignment like interrupting Sul/Horridon adds.
    Yeah of course, but that's not a single-target burn situation. It's frustrating to have DoT classes on progress who insist on multi-dotting or AoE'ing at the cost of DPS on the burn target. And Rogues shouldn't fall into the trap of shiny DPS at the cost of progress either.

    Cleaving is great if the situation calls for it, but it is definitely not a single-target DPS gain.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Synexlol View Post
    edit: It could be worth it when you have Redirect available. With a focus Rupture macro you could apply it without losing any uptime on the main target. But is 90 energy worth more than an Envenom? I'm inclined to say no but I am out of touch with current theory so if you can back this part up that would be great.
    We did the math on this some time ago regarding Megaera - we found, given the 2p from T15, that redirect-rupture, based on an average # of attacks needed to sustain DP on the second head, was approximately a 66 DPS (on the main head) if played perfectly given some variables about the rogue in question. It was close to a .05% damage increase at best, and lower at worst.

    Do not rupture a second target in order to increase single target damage. If one's a priority (council) but you still want damage on another, I see no issue with multi-rupturing regardless of Redirect... Malakk needs the damage eventually, Sul needs the damage eventually, and while Sul may be the higher priority, the raid lead is going to call a switch to break Malakk before he empowers anyway... meaning he still needs damage.

    For other fights: Horridon: same thing I said about council, in theory. Megaera: not a DPS increase in reality. Twin Consorts: depending on what your group struggles with - if Suen needs to die and you're putting rupture on Lu'lin outside of Nuclear Inferno, you're not contributing what you could... but if you don't struggle to survive dusk, or it is nuclear inferno, absolutely put rupture on Lu'lin.

  13. #13
    Field Marshal mat cauthon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    Behind you.
    Posts
    93
    ok, so either way you go multi rupturing isnt enough of a change to account for my far lower then should be dps so then what is the issue here?

  14. #14
    i didn't have a ton of time to look over your entire logs in detail but right off the bat i noticed that your mage only lusted on three fights. He should be lusting on every fight as long as he's not dead. The other thing i noticed on your tortos kill the other rogue in your group has 51 anticipation charges generated while you only had 17. That a lot more combo points to help smooth out your rotation and keep a higher uptime on rupture and envenom. The thing to remember as well is that with all those fights your looking at on that log there is target switching besides jin and tortos which if something dies and you lose combo points or the game doens't count the head on megaera as dying and you cant use rupture your dps will be lower than what sc tells you.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by mat cauthon View Post
    ok, so either way you go multi rupturing isnt enough of a change to account for my far lower then should be dps so then what is the issue here?
    Sorry, sidetracked. I've only had a couple min to look at logs, didn't get as far as CP usage or outside influences (how your raid performs), but nothing stood out as off/low in damage breakdown/SnD/rupture uptime immediately. I'll re-check when I've got a chance - Duncant65 above probably has more of a grasp of the issue - if you're not building anticipation, you're probably either using a majority of finishers under 5 CP or clipping envenom pretty hard - but I won't know until I've got time to look at closer-to-patchwerk fights.

  16. #16
    Field Marshal mat cauthon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    Behind you.
    Posts
    93
    Quote Originally Posted by Duncant65 View Post
    i didn't have a ton of time to look over your entire logs in detail but right off the bat i noticed that your mage only lusted on three fights. He should be lusting on every fight as long as he's not dead. The other thing i noticed on your tortos kill the other rogue in your group has 51 anticipation charges generated while you only had 17. That a lot more combo points to help smooth out your rotation and keep a higher uptime on rupture and envenom. The thing to remember as well is that with all those fights your looking at on that log there is target switching besides jin and tortos which if something dies and you lose combo points or the game doens't count the head on megaera as dying and you cant use rupture your dps will be lower than what sc tells you.
    ive noticed i dont get much use out of anticipation on tortos because of the rotation i use on that fight, mainly using fok as my cp builder ONLY when bats are down or to hit turtles with crippling (think i spaced applying it this week lol) as they come out, because of that i dont usually build over 5cp except with the occasional seal fate proc or the rare occasion after the first stomp when there are no bats up and im using my typical rotation. Aside from when im attempting to avoid clipping envenom (still working on that) without energy capping, or when im using SB, or on a blindside proc when i have 5-6 cp already, i find i dont keep a stock of anticipation often i more or less use it to get off as many 5 cp finishers (aside from the occasional low cp rup because i didnt plan ahead) but otherwise on normal fights its rarely over 2-3 stacks and on execution phase (or massive aoe fights like tortos) i never get much use out of it...

    granted i could be doing it all wrong just explaining what im attempting to do so that if i have the wrong idea it can be corrected not tryin to sound like i know it all
    Last edited by mat cauthon; 2013-06-23 at 10:06 PM. Reason: edited, because proofreading before posting is for perfectionists :p

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •