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  1. #121
    To me, it feels like the shadow pan are similar to a wooden sword coated in a thin layer of steel. They appear to be strong, they flash prettily in the sun and with enough force behind the blow they can even kill. They are however easily broken when hit by an actual steel sword. Don't get me wrong, the Shado-Pan certainly have their moments as have been mentioned a few times in this thread (Townlong and books for example) However the bottom line that I personally take from their story is a reinforcement of Shaohao's sins.
    The Shado-Pan are too proud, as are some elements of player factions, and as such were easy prey to the Sha when they manifested in force for the first time in ten thousand years. I completely understand that this was a stronger manifestation than they were used to but in my eyes this is a poor excuse, when your entire order is dedicated to controlling their emotions with an iron will it should be a source of great shame for any amount of external pressure to break that calm. This is further reinforced by the fact that SOME elements of the Shado-Pan were indeed strong enough (i.e. quest givers in Townlong, Shao-Pan monastery) in addition to many other groups being strong enough to resist, players, Mogu and Zandalari for example. The Shado-Pan have an over-inflated opinion of their prowess based on the fact that they have had very little actual challenge in living memory and therefore like Shadohao himself fall prey to the greatest of sha with ease.

    Regardless of my personal opinions of the Shado-Pan as an organisation, the topic is I believe regarding whether they are justified in their hate of the horde, and whether they could take the shrine? To those I would respond with yes, their hate is justified and I doubt anyone would argue that. The Shado-Pan could certainly storm the shrine, but if and when the horde decided to take it back they would have literally no chance (similarly the alliance could obliterate the Shao-Pan with ease) The Shado-Pan are not trained for war, they are trained to control their emotions and defend Pandaria, this is very different to the kind of war the Alliance and Horde are capable of unleashing if given cause.

    That's my opinion on the matter anyway, I certainly concede the Shado-Pan can be interpreted differently to my view.

  2. #122
    Quote Originally Posted by Tommo View Post

    The Shado Pan have to retardedly powerful otherwise the Pandaren wouldnt have survived until this point (and im still adamant that they shouldnt have, its a load of crap but whatever, plot armour ftw) however it doesnt mean they can stand against the might of blood soaked armies. The Horde and the Alliance have faced threats the Shado Pan can only dream of and have continued to pull through.
    .
    The Shado-Pan are retardedly powerful. They're a small group, Pandaria's only line of defence against just about every threat. But every one of them is far, far, far more powerful than the typical foot soldier. They're like Seventh Legion and Kor'kron combined if we're talking about the scale of how elite these guys are; pandaren are killed during the trials to get accepted into the Shado-Pan and beyond that it's not like being one of them is a 9 to 5 job; they devote the rest of their lives to the cause. So they can by all means stand against the might of blood soaked armies as you put it.

    I should add that it wasn't just the Horde and Alliance solving all of Pandaria's problems. The Shado-Pan are present on the Isle of Thunder just as much as both of those factions, who are just as busy fighting each other like whinging little kids blaming each other for crap. Taran is the one who sits them down and tells them to man the fuck up.

    Actualy yes, it does. Unless you are prepared for anything, you are weak.
    I guess this makes Vol'jin a little weakling for not being prepared for that knife to the neck, then?

  3. #123
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowbane View Post
    I guess this makes Vol'jin a little weakling for not being prepared for that knife to the neck, then?
    It does... Especialy since he was threatening the one that sent the assassin. If he does that and doesnt expect same response, it makes him an idiot.

    I repeat myself, never expect fairness and predictability from your oponent.
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  4. #124
    Immortal KrazyK923's Avatar
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    Yeah I don't think there is reasoning with Verdugo.

    Glad it wasn't just me.

    Anyhow...this discussion has been awesome, on the whole. Thanks! Heading off to bed now, but feel free to continue y'all!

  5. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by Verdugo View Post
    It does... Especialy since he was threatening the one that sent the assassin. If he does that and doesnt expect same response, it makes him an idiot.
    This logic is so incredible flawed I want to vomit, you can't be prepared for ANYTHING, so by your logic, absolutely anyone is weak.
    "Why do we fight? To protect home and family, to preserve balance and bring harmony. For my kind the true question is, what is worth fighting for?"

  6. #126
    Quote Originally Posted by KrazyK923 View Post

    Could bring up mechanics argument again vs Taran Zhu, or the fact that the Sha of Hatred is directly controlling him (Which is why Hatred is a thing during the fight), but probably isn't worth it. Again, repeating myself and all that jazz.
    Hell no. You can use all arguments you want except this one.
    You bring the solo Illidan point... yes... thats mechanics of the game... not lore info... lore info is that 25 random dudes + Maiev kicked Illidan's ass... thats lore.

    Lore about Taran- Zhu? 5 random dudes that just had arrived in panda land roflstomped him ... even though he was empowered by the sha of hatred.
    He wasnt being mannipulated or controlled... he was just overruned by emotions ... in this case hatred... we fought the full display of Taran Zhu's ability.
    And it SUCKED for the " protector of pandaria"

    So no... If taran - zhus appeared in Horde shrine to kick us out, he and his shado pan would get their ass kicked so bad it wouldnt even be called a fight... just bullying.

  7. #127
    Quote Originally Posted by KrazyK923 View Post
    Yeah I don't think there is reasoning with Verdugo.
    Neither with you.

    Quote Originally Posted by KunkkaTheAdmiral View Post
    This logic is so incredible flawed I want to vomit, you can't be prepared for ANYTHING, so by your logic, absolutely anyone is weak.
    Do you think that pathetic troll shouldnt expect knife on a throat after threatening his superior?


    Also please, I never say that some are permanently weak and some are permanently strong. But saying Shado Pan have no weakness when the weakness was thrown in our face... thats the point where you have to evaluate your arguments.
    Last edited by Verdugo; 2013-06-23 at 03:06 PM.
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  8. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by Verdugo View Post
    It does... Especialy since he was threatening the one that sent the assassin. If he does that and doesnt expect same response, it makes him an idiot.

    I repeat myself, never expect fairness and predictability from your oponent.
    So does this make Garrosh weak next patch?

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  9. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowbane View Post
    The Shado-Pan are retardedly powerful. They're a small group, Pandaria's only line of defence against just about every threat. But every one of them is far, far, far more powerful than the typical foot soldier. They're like Seventh Legion and Kor'kron combined if we're talking about the scale of how elite these guys are; pandaren are killed during the trials to get accepted into the Shado-Pan and beyond that it's not like being one of them is a 9 to 5 job; they devote the rest of their lives to the cause. So they can by all means stand against the might of blood soaked armies as you put it.

    I should add that it wasn't just the Horde and Alliance solving all of Pandaria's problems. The Shado-Pan are present on the Isle of Thunder just as much as both of those factions, who are just as busy fighting each other like whinging little kids blaming each other for crap. Taran is the one who sits them down and tells them to man the fuck up.



    I guess this makes Vol'jin a little weakling for not being prepared for that knife to the neck, then?
    Given the fact that he himself threatened garrosh with assasination, not being able to predict that garrosh will try to get rid of him makes vol'jin look like a moron. But hey he is moron anyway.

    Edit: Of course that garrosh is weak. Given all resources he have, and even deus ex machina in form of old god intestines, he still menaged to screw it up. Not being able to manipulate band of idiots like vol'jin, baine and sylvanas basically makes him even bigger idiot.
    Last edited by Arrashi; 2013-06-23 at 03:06 PM.

  10. #130
    Quote Originally Posted by Callei View Post
    -Sha empowered to levels only heard of in legend. Fear corrupts the Mantid empress, empress forces a swarm 100 years early. Anger drives the yaungol mad, causing them to zerg settlements. Hatred infects the Shado-Pan, having become powerful enough to overcome them. Other Sha corrupt major figures in pandaren culture or claim swaths of land as their own.
    The problem with this, is the quests say that the Mantid were attacking the Niuzao temple, when they dug underneath it and found the Sha of Fear locked up. The Sha escaped and then corrupted/possessed the Queen. This makes absolutely no sense, why would the mantid be attacking the temple before they are corrupted? The Mantid are the cause for the Yaungol being forced to leave Townlong, and invade Kun-lai.

  11. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fairchild View Post
    Hell no. You can use all arguments you want except this one.
    You bring the solo Illidan point... yes... thats mechanics of the game... not lore info... lore info is that 25 random dudes + Maiev kicked Illidan's ass... thats lore.

    Lore about Taran- Zhu? 5 random dudes that just had arrived in panda land roflstomped him ... even though he was empowered by the sha of hatred.
    He wasnt being mannipulated or controlled... he was just overruned by emotions ... in this case hatred... we fought the full display of Taran Zhu's ability.
    And it SUCKED for the " protector of pandaria"

    So no... If taran - zhus appeared in Horde shrine to kick us out, he and his shado pan would get their ass kicked so bad it wouldnt even be called a fight... just bullying.
    Couple things you're missing here. Taran Zhu, one pandaren, stood alone against five of the best and brightest of the Alliance and Horde.

    Second, the Sha empower those they corrupt. If you notice the debuffs, they always show a damage increase to Sha-corrupted targets.

    Third, you're assuming the Shado-Pan would arrive for a fair fight. They wouldn't. They'd send in assassins to kill the sentries and murder everyone in their sleep. Honor's a pretty virtue. It's also one the Shado-Pan are willing to discard if the choice is between being honorable or protecting Pandaria--else they wouldn't have an entire branch of elite assassins and saboteurs.

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  12. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by Verdugo View Post
    Neither with you.



    Do you think that pathetic troll shouldnt expect knife on a throat after threatening his superior?
    This is not the point, I don't care about Vol'jin in this Argument, no one can be prepared for anything, NO ONE. thats the fuckin point, so for you anyone is weak, you, me, anyone.
    "Why do we fight? To protect home and family, to preserve balance and bring harmony. For my kind the true question is, what is worth fighting for?"

  13. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sandrox View Post
    The problem with this, is the quests say that the Mantid were attacking the Niuzao temple, when they dug underneath it and found the Sha of Fear locked up. The Sha escaped and then corrupted/possessed the Queen. This makes absolutely no sense, why would the mantid be attacking the temple before they are corrupted? The Mantid are the cause for the Yaungol being forced to leave Townlong, and invade Kun-lai.
    Ah, before I head to sleep, though:

    The Mantid don't free the Sha of Fear. It escapes when the Horde and Alliance come to Pandaria. The temple defenders simply are unaware it had escaped until the players literally get there. There's so much chaos going on that when you're sent to investigate underneath the Temple because of the Mantid, THEN you find out. The quest has one of the Temple guards basically finally reveal what happened. We don't even really know the Sha of Fear has infected the Mantid Queen until a good way into Townlong Steppes.

  14. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sandrox View Post
    The problem with this, is the quests say that the Mantid were attacking the Niuzao temple, when they dug underneath it and found the Sha of Fear locked up. The Sha escaped and then corrupted/possessed the Queen. This makes absolutely no sense, why would the mantid be attacking the temple before they are corrupted? The Mantid are the cause for the Yaungol being forced to leave Townlong, and invade Kun-lai.
    That's mantid being mantid, serving the will of their empress. The swarm attacking the Shado-Pan, however, is a once-every-thousand-years deal, like clockwork, because they're not trying to take over Pandaria during those swarms--it's a Darwinian test of survival for their youth, allowing the weak to be killed by one another or the Shado-Pan so only the strongest return to serve the empress and Klaxxi'va. The premature swarm kept the blackguards tied up, which prevented them from going to reinforce the Shado-Pan in Kun-Lai or the Golden Lotus in the Vale.

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  15. #135
    Quote Originally Posted by Florena View Post
    But would the Zandalari have been able to find the place with the mists still up?
    Considering how quickly they got there after the mists fell, I think it's pretty safe to say they arrived at almost the same time as the Horde/Alliance did. Especially considering the numbers of them that came, they sent a huge force not much later than we did.

  16. #136
    Quote Originally Posted by KrazyK923 View Post
    Ah, before I head to sleep, though:

    The Mantid don't free the Sha of Fear. It escapes when the Horde and Alliance come to Pandaria. The temple defenders simply are unaware it had escaped until the players literally get there. There's so much chaos going on that when you're sent to investigate underneath the Temple because of the Mantid, THEN you find out. The quest has one of the Temple guards basically finally reveal what happened. We don't even really know the Sha of Fear has infected the Mantid Queen until a good way into Townlong Steppes.
    These quests say otherwise.

    http://www.wowhead.com/quest=30927
    http://www.wowhead.com/quest=30926

    The mantid dug underneath the temple, found the sha, and it possessed their queen.

  17. #137
    Immortal KrazyK923's Avatar
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    ...the Pandaren become infected by fear. The fear that was there after the Prime Sha of Fear was freed. When you go down there, there are mini sha of Fear all over the place. The Sha of Fear had already been released...

    That quest giver is basically revealing what had already happened. It wasn't in the process of happening. He was reacting to the Mantid, which were already being sent by the Fear-possessed Queen, invading underneath the Temple.

    I'm not sure what part of that quest text you're reading that says otherwise.
    Last edited by KrazyK923; 2013-06-23 at 03:17 PM.

  18. #138
    Quote Originally Posted by KrazyK923 View Post
    ...the Pandaren become infected by fear. The fear that was there after the Prime Sha of Fear was freed. When you go down there, there are mini sha of Fear all over the place. The Sha of Fear had already been released...

    That quest giver is basically revealing what had already happened. It wasn't in the process of happening. He was reacting to the Mantid, which were already being sent by the Fear-possessed Queen, invading underneath the Temple.

    I'm not sure what part of that quest text you're reading that says otherwise.
    It says right here: "It was OUR sworn duty to confine that creature beneath our temple. Unfortunately, our vigil faltered, our defenses buckled, and the sha escaped. It is with the mantid now."

    Who was attacked the temple? The mantid.
    "When I learned that the mantid had burrowed beneath our temple, I reacted hastily."
    What were the mantid doing? Digging underneath the temple. The Mantid let the Sha of Fear escape.

  19. #139
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    Even though the Sha have been eliminated, and thus afaik we can exert negative emotions on Pandaria without consequence now; he should know better than to exert hatred.

    Yes, it's justified. But coming from someone who was raised their entire life to avoid negative emotions, and to enforce the laws of the land; yeah...
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  20. #140
    BTW my basic feeling (no offense to the OP, but I don't want to watch an entire 21 minutes of that video) is that the Shado-Pan are obviously very strong individually, and Taran Zhu is justified to be suspicious/angry/hateful of the factions for all the chaos they have caused. But clearly their biggest problem is that they don't have enough members to defend against all these problems we bring to Pandaria.

    So they have to make a deal with what Taran Zhu probably feels is the lesser of two evils, the Alliance and Horde, to let them help the Shado-Pan defeat their enemies and undo the mistakes the Alliance/Horde created by coming here. It's also not 100% our fault that some of these things happened. There isn't a sign hanging outside Pandaria that says "WARNING: Evil spirits of emotion sealed within the land. Don't get too angry, violent, scared, etc." I mean the Sha awakened because of us, but at the same time, if we had been able to really understand how the Sha worked before coming to Pandaria, maybe our forces wouldn't have stirred them up so much.

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