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  1. #141
    Fluffy Kitten Callei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omgarsh View Post
    I mean the Sha awakened because of us, but at the same time, if we had been able to really understand how the Sha worked before coming to Pandaria, maybe our forces wouldn't have stirred them up so much.
    Which is why Taran Zhu went out of his way to (albeit aggressively) spell it out for Nazgrim and whathisface the night elf SI:7 operative, both of whom were infected by the Sha shortly after their arrival. He gave them ample warning about what would happen and told them it was in their best interests to leave. Then the big climactic fight at the statue of the Jade Serpent takes place, cementing full stop what this expansion was going to be about: the faction war and how it's tearing this beautiful, scenic land to shreds around it because the factions refused to stop and learn from the natives, instead using them to fight proxy wars.

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  2. #142
    Quote Originally Posted by Callei View Post
    Which is why Taran Zhu went out of his way to (albeit aggressively) spell it out for Nazgrim and whathisface the night elf SI:7 operative, both of whom were infected by the Sha shortly after their arrival. He gave them ample warning about what would happen and told them it was in their best interests to leave. Then the big climactic fight at the statue of the Jade Serpent takes place, cementing full stop what this expansion was going to be about: the faction war and how it's tearing this beautiful, scenic land to shreds around it because the factions refused to stop and learn from the natives, instead using them to fight proxy wars.
    It still shows that supposed master of the order that can control its emotions... cant control his emotions. Horde and Alliance were test, and he failed. Spectacularly.
    The common man is like a worm in the gut of a corpse, trapped inside a prison of cold flesh, helpless and uncaring, unaware even of the inevitability of its own doom.

  3. #143
    Banned Trassk's Avatar
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    The fact that the worst examples of sha possession and corruption tied in with the shado-pan themselves (I mean hell, there leader gets completely taken over by one sha, well another sha runs around in there temple), makes them really appear the most hypocritical of factions ever. Far as I'm concerned, the sha of hatred and violence came from there own mistakes, it didn't come from horde and alliance appearing in there lands.

    As a group that is meant to hold itself to defending against the evils of bad emotions, they do a really shit job of it.

    And if what shao hao tells us, that the reason why pandaria was clouded in mist it because of the sha of pride, then its obvious pride plays such a strong role in there culture as much as it does to ones like orcs.
    Last edited by Trassk; 2013-06-23 at 03:40 PM.

  4. #144
    Quote Originally Posted by Sandrox View Post
    It says right here: "It was OUR sworn duty to confine that creature beneath our temple. Unfortunately, our vigil faltered, our defenses buckled, and the sha escaped. It is with the mantid now."

    Who was attacked the temple? The mantid.
    "When I learned that the mantid had burrowed beneath our temple, I reacted hastily."
    What were the mantid doing? Digging underneath the temple. The Mantid let the Sha of Fear escape.
    Its confirmed the Sha of Fear is released by the Horde and Alliance arriving on Pandaria...

    https://twitter.com/DaveKosak/status/340621581430706177

  5. #145
    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    The fact that the worst examples of sha possession and corruption tied in with the shado-pan themselves (I mean hell, there leader gets completely taken over by one sha, well another sha runs around in there temple), makes them really appear the most hypocritical of factions ever. Far as I'm concerned, the sha of hatred and violence came from there own mistakes, it didn't come from horde and alliance appearing in there lands.

    As a group that is meant to hold itself to defending against the evils of bad emotions, they do a really shit job of it.
    This. The only Sha that it looks like the Horde/Alliance actually release is the Sha of Doubt in the Jade Forest, and the Sha of Pride by Garrosh Horde in the Vale.

  6. #146
    Fluffy Kitten Callei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Verdugo View Post
    It still shows that supposed master of the order that can control its emotions... cant control his emotions. Horde and Alliance were test, and he failed. Spectacularly.
    So what you're saying is that he was supposed to hold firm against a manifestation of an Old God's power, empowered to levels only heard of in ancient legends (because seriously, that bears repeating for people who can't figure that part out), while his own hatred of the Alliance and Horde builds as they continue to rip the land to pieces around them over a war his people and land had nothing to do with, so they can determine who gets to stripmine his land of resources? And that doesn't seem like an unrealistic expectation to you considering that the adventurers step within twenty feet of the Sha of Anger and are immediately overwhelmed?

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  7. #147
    Quote Originally Posted by KrazyK923 View Post
    Its confirmed the Sha of Fear is released by the Horde and Alliance arriving on Pandaria...

    https://twitter.com/DaveKosak/status/340621581430706177
    I would take that text seriously, if all the in game quests and lore didnt directly contradict that statement.

  8. #148
    Fluffy Kitten Callei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sandrox View Post
    This. The only Sha that it looks like the Horde/Alliance actually release is the Sha of Doubt in the Jade Forest, and the Sha of Pride by Garrosh Horde in the Vale.
    https://twitter.com/DaveKosak/status/340621581430706177 Kosak, head honcho of quest development, says it's literally all on us.

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  9. #149
    Quote Originally Posted by Sandrox View Post
    I would take that text seriously, if all the in game quests and lore didnt directly contradict that statement.
    Except it doesn't. You're interpreting a single word the quest says in a different way.

    Dave Kosak is the lead quest designer of development. Reminds me of Blizzard flat-out saying Garrosh is not corrupt and people still arguing he is.

  10. #150
    Quote Originally Posted by Callei View Post
    So what you're saying is that he was supposed to hold firm against a manifestation of an Old God's power, empowered to levels only heard of in ancient legends (because seriously, that bears repeating for people who can't figure that part out), while his own hatred of the Alliance and Horde builds as they continue to rip the land to pieces around them over a war his people and land had nothing to do with, so they can determine who gets to stripmine his land of resources? And that doesn't seem like an unrealistic expectation to you considering that the adventurers step within twenty feet of the Sha of Anger and are immediately overwhelmed?
    Such ancient order should know better.

    Quote Originally Posted by Callei View Post
    https://twitter.com/DaveKosak/status/340621581430706177 Kosak, head honcho of quest development, says it's literally all on us.
    Its really bad when head of the quest development cant make something more interesting than "its all your fault, repent sinners".
    The common man is like a worm in the gut of a corpse, trapped inside a prison of cold flesh, helpless and uncaring, unaware even of the inevitability of its own doom.

  11. #151
    Quote Originally Posted by Callei View Post
    https://twitter.com/DaveKosak/status/340621581430706177 Kosak, head honcho of quest development, says it's literally all on us.
    If that is indeed supposed to be true, the game does a VERY POOR job of it.

  12. #152
    Fluffy Kitten Callei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Verdugo View Post
    Such ancient order should know better.
    Way to miss the point. The point remains that by the time Taran Zhu was born, Sha of that power were considered more a cautionary tale than an actual record of history, the same way most people today consider the story of Icarus a cautionary tale. Even Lorewalker Cho, someone whose entire purpose in life is to record and learn from history, goes out of his way to tell us Sha of that power were only heard of in legends--that there was no historic record of Sha of that power should tell you a lot about how badly we fucked things up.

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  13. #153
    Quote Originally Posted by Sandrox View Post
    If that is indeed supposed to be true, the game does a VERY POOR job of it.
    Not really. You're choosing not to see it.

  14. #154
    Mainly to address the perspective of people thinking the Shado-Pan are helpless.

    Alliance and Horde arrive, the following fighting and war causes Sha to re-emerge, the Sha of Fear posesses the mantid Empress, who sends the swarm 100 years early; this prompts the yaungol who had been living in Townlong at the time to try fleeing into Kun Lai, where by their nature they raid and pillage to try and establish a new home. On top of that with the mists falling the Zandalari return and bring back the Thunder King, the pandaren's most feared figure of their history.

    Quote Originally Posted by Auxis View Post
    Even though the Sha have been eliminated, and thus afaik we can exert negative emotions on Pandaria without consequence now; he should know better than to exert hatred.

    Yes, it's justified. But coming from someone who was raised their entire life to avoid negative emotions, and to enforce the laws of the land; yeah...
    I think after any of this, even someone like Taran would slip from the burden of responsibility because he's probably blaming himself for letting it all happen. It's not just about exerting hatred either. You could be as angry or violent as you wanted so long as you don't let it overwhelm you, as you might hit something if you get angry enough.

    Anyways, consider that after / throughout the above, all the while Alliance and Horde are making things worse by maintaining their hateful war and letting their emotions get the better of them, creating a continuing mess that the Shado-Pan are cleaning up, but they do what they can to help out; half divided between killing each other and helping the folks of Pandaria, the Horde mostly because they're a resource-hungry war machine whereas the Alliance are there primarily to counter the Horde. You know, because it's not like Garrosh is reasonable. Both factions realise if they become a real problem, the Shado-Pan will turn on them. They're not so honorable and righteous as the Argent Crusade.

    This is pretty important because none of the factions want that to happen. That's quite obvious when you first meet Taran in the introduction quests in Pandaria; especially when he tells Nazgrim to put his weapons away or he'll be facing two enemies on this continent - or something along those lines. Neither faction wants to make an enemy of the Shado-Pan and with good reasons. In an all out fight, Alliance or Horde probably could defeat the Shado-Pan because of their numbers. But firstly, as Callei put it:

    you're assuming the Shado-Pan would arrive for a fair fight. They wouldn't. They'd send in assassins to kill the sentries and murder everyone in their sleep. Honor's a pretty virtue. It's also one the Shado-Pan are willing to discard if the choice is between being honorable or protecting Pandaria--else they wouldn't have an entire branch of elite assassins and saboteurs.
    Consider that both of these armies are stationed in land that the Shado-Pan are familiar with and the factions are not. They would probably have the support of the Order of the Cloud Serpent (which if you know the history of, you might come to realise that cloud serpents are rather dangerous creatures), the Golden Lotus and perhaps even the Celestials.

    Secondly, if the Horde decided to make an enemy of the Shado-Pan, the Alliance would be making allies with them, and then the Horde in Pandaria would truly be boned.

    Also I think we're forgetting that the pandaren are walking talking bears. When was the last time you were punched by a bear? Probably never, but I bet it'd shatter a ribcage. They could quite easily re-take the Shrine from the Horde if they sent enough people. It isn't a fortress like Orgrimmar.

  15. #155
    Quote Originally Posted by KrazyK923 View Post
    Not really. You're choosing not to see it.
    Yes really. The mantid are already under the effects of the Sha and swarming the wall when your in Valley of the Four Winds and Krasarang Wilds. How exactly is the Horde/Alliance releasing the Sha of Fear and having it possess the Mantid before they even get there?

  16. #156
    Quote Originally Posted by Sandrox View Post
    Yes really. The mantid are already under the effects of the Sha and swarming the wall when your in Valley of the Four Winds and Krasarang Wilds. How exactly is the Horde/Alliance releasing the Sha of Fear and having it possess the Mantid before they even get there?
    Because Kosak says it, duh... Fuck logic when Blizzard lore developers are talking.
    The common man is like a worm in the gut of a corpse, trapped inside a prison of cold flesh, helpless and uncaring, unaware even of the inevitability of its own doom.

  17. #157
    Quote Originally Posted by Sandrox View Post
    Yes really. The mantid are already under the effects of the Sha and swarming the wall when your in Valley of the Four Winds and Krasarang Wilds. How exactly is the Horde/Alliance releasing the Sha of Fear and having it possess the Mantid before they even get there?
    ...the Sha are unleashed when they step foot on PANDARIA. The land. The specific zone is irrelevant. When the Prime Sha are unleashed during the Jade Forest cinematic, it happens everywhere. And then the ripple effects occur.

    You can continue to believe whatever you want, but we have the actual guy who oversaw the creation of the quests telling us this is how it happened.

    Quote Originally Posted by Verdugo View Post
    Because Kosak says it, duh... Fuck logic when Blizzard lore developers are talking.
    Great contribution. See above post. I have no desire to debate whether or not the guy who is responsible for the quests is right or wrong.

  18. #158
    Quote Originally Posted by KrazyK923 View Post
    ...the Sha are unleashed when they step foot on PANDARIA. The land. The specific zone is irrelevant. When the Prime Sha are unleashed during the Jade Forest cinematic, it happens everywhere. And then the ripple effects occur.

    You can continue to believe whatever you want, but we have the actual guy who oversaw the creation of the quests telling us this is how it happened.



    Great contribution. See above post. I have no desire to debate whether or not the guy who is responsible for the quests is right or wrong.
    So if every sha was released in the Horde/Alliance battle (which is actually a Jinyu and Hozen battle, with a few Horde/Alliance leading them) then why are the Mantid digging below the Niuzao temple after they are already affected by the Sha?

  19. #159
    ...because they are their enemy?

    Have you done the "Siege of Niuzao Temple" 5-man? They're simply using that way to get into the area...

    If their goal was to free the Sha of Fear, why would they continue to do that in the 5man, which takes place after the story in the Townlong Steppes? Its because its an effective way to attack their centuries-old enemy. They use the tree to burst into the backside of the Temple.

    They have the capability to attack the Temple from a way that isn't a frontal assault. Its honestly not more complicated than that.
    Last edited by KrazyK923; 2013-06-23 at 04:01 PM.

  20. #160
    Fluffy Kitten Callei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sandrox View Post
    So if every sha was released in the Horde/Alliance battle (which is actually a Jinyu and Hozen battle, with a few Horde/Alliance leading them) then why are the Mantid digging below the Niuzao temple after they are already affected by the Sha?
    My best guess? Same reason people who were brainwashed by Yogg-Saron were digging shit up for him--his bonds were broken, allowing him to corrupt the mantid empress, but the physical prison still kept him from razing the countryside. No proof here, mind, just an attempt to reconcile the events of the quest with the official word on how things went according to the guy who's basically got the second to last word on lore (the last word being Metzen himself).

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