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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Beefkow View Post
    That is scary when comparing an aoe spell to a single target spell in a single target situation... wow is scourge strike that bad?
    I'm sorry, but I saw the topic as a destro lock and had to laugh at this.

    Come talk to me when you have a sub 4 sec duration aoe on no CD that needs as close to 100% uptime as possible.

  2. #22
    Herald of the Titans Darkfriend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by schleimhaut View Post
    ^ Crit is our best stat, what are you talking about?
    Certain spells EG DC don't use crit but spell crit.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkfriend View Post
    Certain spells EG DC don't use crit but spell crit.
    Which is based on crit rating so what's your point °_°

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-30 at 12:34 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Beefkow View Post
    They should make the SS shadow portion crit, that would make crit more of a viable stat.
    Ya because causing stats to double dip is such a great way to balance things.
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  4. #24
    High Overlord Mizuisha's Avatar
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    Crit has been pretty great since Cata anyway, was edging close to haste, only gurth made mastery pull ahead briefly in T13.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Nillo View Post
    Ya because causing stats to double dip is such a great way to balance things.
    Chaos Bolt does this, the mastery directly affects it as it is a burning ember consuming spell and therefor it increases its effectiveness, but it's damage is also increased by crit strike. It wouldn't be horrid to balance, especially since it's not really like Chaos Bolt, but this would be just a band-aid on the problem for dk's

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Nillo View Post
    Ya because causing stats to double dip is such a great way to balance things.
    Well, here is my question to you, do you even see SS in the top 3 (or 5) spells? and have you even seen the shadow portion? its extremely low, a slight boost to SS damage wont hurt right..????

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Maxweii View Post
    Chaos Bolt does this, the mastery directly affects it as it is a burning ember consuming spell and therefor it increases its effectiveness, but it's damage is also increased by crit strike. It wouldn't be horrid to balance, especially since it's not really like Chaos Bolt, but this would be just a band-aid on the problem for dk's
    How is that double dipping? It just benefits from mastery and crit nothing fance or anything.

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-30 at 01:36 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Beefkow View Post
    Well, here is my question to you, do you even see SS in the top 3 (or 5) spells? and have you even seen the shadow portion? its extremely low, a slight boost to SS damage wont hurt right..????
    Not saying that SS doesn't need a buff.... just saying that double dipping is hardly the right way to balance anything because it would be far too reliant on crit to deal any damage.
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  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Nillo View Post
    Not saying that SS doesn't need a buff.... just saying that double dipping is hardly the right way to balance anything because it would be far too reliant on crit to deal any damage.
    I agree with you that making one stat very beneficial to the class and leaving the other 2 worthless is not the way to go (ex: arms warriors), but i don't understand why haste is so INSANELY good, only just to get in a faster rune regen to get in more SS's? I see crit as being the "decent" stat for unholys, but i don't think making ONE more ability crit suddenly unbalance the stat scaling.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Nillo View Post
    How is that double dipping? It just benefits from mastery and crit nothing fance or anything.
    I quoted you on saying that having the shadow portion of SS crit would be making it double dip and would be bad. Which now that I think about it what you said didn't even make sense but lets go beyond that.
    Chaos Bolt double dips on stats because it's a single ability that uses two stats to buff it. Scourge Strike can have it's physical portion crit yes, which slightly increases the damage of it's shadow portion but only just as it's still (at baseline) 50% of physical damage done as Shadow (before mastery). Now think about it, Chaos Bolt always crits yes, but that means it's always doing double damage (or well base damage since it's always a crit) then beyond that crit increases the damage it does.

    I won't even finish, the more I think about what i'm quoting here, and trying to explain it to you. This is going nowhere fast

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Maxweii View Post
    1) I quoted you on saying that having the shadow portion of SS crit would be making it double dip and would be bad. Which now that I think about it what you said didn't even make sense but lets go beyond that.
    2) Chaos Bolt double dips on stats because it's a single ability that uses two stats to buff it.
    3) Scourge Strike can have it's physical portion crit yes, which slightly increases the damage of it's shadow portion but only just as it's still (at baseline) 50% of physical damage done as Shadow (before mastery).
    4) Now think about it, Chaos Bolt always crits yes, but that means it's always doing double damage (or well base damage since it's always a crit) then beyond that crit increases the damage it does.
    5) I won't even finish, the more I think about what i'm quoting here, and trying to explain it to you. This is going nowhere fast
    Alright you asked for it:
    1) We'll see about who doesn't make sense
    2) Just like every other ability that scales with mastery like.. frost strike, howling blast, scourge strike,...........? The only thing that's different about chaos bolt is that the damage increase from crit isn't random.
    3) I don't even know what you're trying to say here.
    4) See 2. since it's a guaranteed crit... guess what it doesn't scale with crit thus no double dipping from the increased crit multiplier.
    5) Ya I'm pretty sure you have no clue what you're talking about.

    Ahhh whatever let's just put it in mathsss:
    SS damage = (1+crit)(X*(armormult) + 0.5*X*(1+Mastery))
    SS damage with shadow crit: (1+crit)(X*(armormult) + (1+crit)*0.5*X*(1+Mastery))
    Chaos bolt damage = (1+crit)*(1+mastery)*X*(1+1)

    See the part where you have (1+crit)² and it's only in the equation where SS shadow damage can crit but not in the Chaos Bolt equation?
    Last edited by Nillo; 2013-06-30 at 02:29 AM.
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  11. #31
    All I will say is you are missing the point that the more crit you have the more damage chaos bolt does, you have been overlooking that this whole time. Go back to OT now already

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Maxweii View Post
    All I will say is you are missing the point that the more crit you have the more damage chaos bolt does, you have been overlooking that this whole time.
    Ya really why do I even bother. You still don't even have the slightest clue how that has nothing to do with double dipping because all it does is replace critical strike chance with critical strike damage.
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  13. #33
    Just simply give shadow portion a chance to crit like other spells?( well i know hand of light for ret pallys doesn't crit, but that is different) or buff the physical portion? i am done with all of this complex discussion, everybody knows SS is a weak ability as it is.

    And you know what, congrats Nillo you win the arguement... there is no need for more crit for unholys.. we are fine where we are i guess.

  14. #34
    Moderator Nyanmaru's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maxweii View Post
    All I will say is you are missing the point that the more crit you have the more damage chaos bolt does, you have been overlooking that this whole time. Go back to OT now already
    "Double Dipping" means that a single stat is used twice in the damage calculation.

    For almost all DpS Specs their damage scales with attack power or spell power and mastery. That does not mean they "double dip".


    Quote Originally Posted by Beefkow View Post
    Just simply give shadow portion a chance to crit like other spells?( well i know hand of light for ret pallys doesn't crit, but that is different) or buff the physical portion? i am done with all of this complex discussion, everybody knows SS is a weak ability as it is.

    And you know what, congrats Nillo you win the arguement... there is no need for more crit for unholys.. we are fine where we are i guess.
    The shadow damage portion already does increased damage on critical strikes...

    simple numbers for easy understanding:
    Normal SS = 100 Damage + 50 Shadow Damage = 150 Damage total
    Crit SS = 200 Damage + 100 Shadow Damage = 300 Damage total

    See how the shadow damage is twice as large in the second one as it is in the first one? Would it make you feel better when the shadow damage portion would be displayed as "critical strike" when the physical part crits? It wouldn't change anything about the damage but it would shut up the argument that it's bad that the shadow portion has no "crits".

  15. #35
    High Overlord Symph's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beefkow View Post
    Just simply give shadow portion a chance to crit like other spells?( well i know hand of light for ret pallys doesn't crit, but that is different) or buff the physical portion? i am done with all of this complex discussion, everybody knows SS is a weak ability as it is.

    And you know what, congrats Nillo you win the arguement... there is no need for more crit for unholys.. we are fine where we are i guess.
    When scourge strike was first changed to what it is today, the shadow portion could crit. This was later hotfixed (didn't even wait for a patch) because it gave wildly different numbers and caused issues with scaling, particularly on fights that had % damage increase mechanics.

    I believe Nillo was just pointing out that double dipping hurts balance more than helps. Not necessarily that they shouldn't try to do something to improve SS.
    Last edited by Symph; 2013-07-01 at 12:49 PM.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Nillo View Post
    Alright you asked for it:
    1) We'll see about who doesn't make sense
    2) Just like every other ability that scales with mastery like.. frost strike, howling blast, scourge strike,...........? The only thing that's different about chaos bolt is that the damage increase from crit isn't random.
    3) I don't even know what you're trying to say here.
    4) See 2. since it's a guaranteed crit... guess what it doesn't scale with crit thus no double dipping from the increased crit multiplier.
    5) Ya I'm pretty sure you have no clue what you're talking about.

    Ahhh whatever let's just put it in mathsss:
    SS damage = (1+crit)(X*(armormult) + 0.5*X*(1+Mastery))
    SS damage with shadow crit: (1+crit)(X*(armormult) + (1+crit)*0.5*X*(1+Mastery))
    Chaos bolt damage = (1+crit)*(1+mastery)*X*(1+1)

    See the part where you have (1+crit)² and it's only in the equation where SS shadow damage can crit but not in the Chaos Bolt equation?
    Chaos bolts damage is buffed by crit so you are wrong.


    Chaos Bolt Level 90
    10 Burning Embers 40 yd range
    3 sec cast
    Requires Warlock (Destruction)
    Requires level 42
    Unleashes a blast of chaos, causing (2164 ( + 225% of SpellPower) * (1 + 24 / 100 * (cond($gt(level, 79), 1, 0)))) Shadow damage.

    Chaos Bolt always critically strikes. In addition, the damage is increased by your critical strike chance.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by valliant13 View Post
    Chaos bolts damage is buffed by crit so you are wrong.


    Chaos Bolt Level 90
    10 Burning Embers 40 yd range
    3 sec cast
    Requires Warlock (Destruction)
    Requires level 42
    Unleashes a blast of chaos, causing (2164 ( + 225% of SpellPower) * (1 + 24 / 100 * (cond($gt(level, 79), 1, 0)))) Shadow damage.

    Chaos Bolt always critically strikes. In addition, the damage is increased by your critical strike chance.
    God you people are stupid.
    Just keep taking my quotes out of context and ignore the other half of the quote. (like the simplified damage formula for chaos bolt)
    Last edited by Nillo; 2013-07-01 at 01:47 PM.
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  18. #38
    Is the problem that DnD is outdamaging SS or that SS is too weak in general?
    They could simply lower DnD's damage but have the dmg increase per target inside it.
    or they could buff SS in ways unrelated to weapon damage (since posts mentioned that with a decent weapon it could pull ahead)

    I haven't played Unholy since early cata though so I'm a bit out of the loop and could be saying something stupid.


    Quote Originally Posted by valliant13 View Post
    Chaos bolts damage is buffed by crit so you are wrong.
    Thanks cpt obvious, he said that in the same sentence you decided to highlight in your quote, the post was about how chaos bolt does not double dip in crit.
    Last edited by Yojiro; 2013-07-01 at 02:07 PM.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Yojiro View Post
    Is the problem that DnD is outdamaging SS or that SS is too weak in general?
    Guess most of the dks who are complaining don't like SS's low damage per hit.
    And I really don't get what's wrong with an annoying to use high cd aoe dot ability dealing slightly more damage than a spammable skill. It's usually better to save it for when you're out of range or have more than 1 target anyway.
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  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Drikkink View Post
    I'm sorry, but I saw the topic as a destro lock and had to laugh at this.

    Come talk to me when you have a sub 4 sec duration aoe on no CD that needs as close to 100% uptime as possible.
    Yeah no shit, the idea of a long lasting fire and forget aoe doing enough damage to be usable in single target is not at all a new thing for WoW, in fact this wouldn't be the first time DnD has been used on cooldown in the DK single target rotation for just this reason.

    As for the talk about chaos bolt "double dipping" because it scales with both mastery and crit is downright hilarious, here is a hint practically every spells dps scales with both haste and crit, and for a destro lock all the single target ones also scale with mastery, this is not odd and it certainly isn't double dipping. Chaos bolt's dps doesn't scale any better with crit than any other destruction ability, it is just a guaranteed extra 1% damage instead of a 1% chance of double damage.

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