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  1. #1
    Grunt Mollox's Avatar
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    Alright bring back our DPS for PvE

    I don't know when the last time was that I felt like a total baller in a raid, and I'm really starting to get demotivated at how low our DPS is PvE-wise, I don't really know anything about PvP so I'm just assuming we're so underpowered because of it. But hell why are other classes allowed their time in the light for so long for both pvp and pve?

    I'm a hybrid-utility class right? Therefore I should be mediocre to low on the meters.
    Then why are the other hybribs, points at Shamans, Monks and Druids doing so much more DPS? They're basically walking in the same shoes that we are, yet still we're so far behind them.

    I don't really like to QQ, and I do feel like my DPS is alright, but then I look at the DPS rankings, and I weep tears of frigging blood. At top level play I just can't compete against the others, I can know everything about my class and play my rotations/priorities to perfection, I could be geared to the bone and I'll still fall flat 20k - 40k behind.

    I just want to feel powerful again

  2. #2
    Legendary! Treelife's Avatar
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    I don't get why people are suddenly saying Death Knights DPS has dropped. It hasn't. The only thing that changed was the FesterBlight nerf. Both Frost and Unholy are still perfectly viable. If you link some of your logs compared with your guildies then that would be better than comparing yourself to another class in a different guild, where they are getting fed TotT and DPS cooldowns on much shorter fights. etc.

    Now, other classes DPS could do with a tweak, but that has nothing to do with us. If you're comparing different classes on different fights then that's just silly. Some are good at AoE, some are good at really widespread AoE, some are really good at Multi Dotting, some are good at doing all that on the move. And most of them are Warlocks but that's not the point.

    Last edited by Treelife; 2013-06-14 at 11:56 AM.

  3. #3
    Grunt Mollox's Avatar
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    I never said it wasn't viable.
    I'm still playing both specs and enjoying it.
    My damage is decent, but it's not topping the meters, like I said I don't remember the last time we were at the top.
    And to be honest we're generally mid to bottom on the meters this tier, which makes competing against the other DPSers feel pointless.
    And please elaborate how a 5% total STR nerf and not benefitting from Tricks on your diseases is a small nerf?

  4. #4
    It is because not everyone has a pocket rogue to abuse ;!
    Armories:
    Pally: Chiaki
    Dk: Telare
    Warrior: Irlida

  5. #5
    Yo someone's gonna be at the bottom someone's gonna be at the top and it cannot be your class because then each class would be better than the other one and then they'll all be #1! What a perfect world!

  6. #6
    Field Marshal Wiizper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nillo View Post
    It is because not everyone has a pocket rogue to abuse ;!

    Tricks doesnt increase damage anymore.
    Wiizper#2846



    Wiizper - Main

  7. #7
    Legendary! Treelife's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mollox View Post
    I never said it wasn't viable.
    Nope, but it sure as hell sounds like we are when you read this:
    Quote Originally Posted by Mollox View Post
    I don't know when the last time was that I felt like a total baller in a raid
    I'm really starting to get demotivated at how low our DPS is PvE-wise
    why are the other hybribs, points at Shamans, Monks and Druids doing so much more DPS?
    we're so far behind them.
    then I look at the DPS rankings, and I weep tears of frigging blood. At top level play I just can't compete against the others
    I could be geared to the bone and I'll still fall flat 20k - 40k behind.
    I just want to feel powerful again
    which makes competing against the other DPSers feel pointless.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mollox View Post
    And please elaborate how a 5% total STR nerf and not benefitting from Tricks on your diseases is a small nerf?
    I never said small, I said "The only thing that changed was the FesterBlight nerf. Both Frost and Unholy are still perfectly viable." which is true.

    Personally, I'm usually at least top 5. Mostly first or second. Again, that depends on YOUR raid. If you're comparing yourself to other people's logs then that might not be a good idea if you're just looking at the DPS.

    Again, link YOUR logs and the ones which you are comparing to please. Makes life easier.

  8. #8
    Grunt Mollox's Avatar
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    That's not a half bad idea, have all the classes do the same amount of DPS and then your skill level reflects on how good you really are !
    But in all seriousness I understand how the rankings should work, but it's demoralizing having your class be at the bottom for most of the fights.
    Tortos and Durumu are the only fights that I feel like I'm really contributing to the raid (And that's being mediocre) most of the time it just feels like I'm herp derping around doing my facerolls and not seeing my numbers go up like herpderp next to me.

    Also very interesting, enhancement shamans were basically in our spectrum in terms of DPS, then some QQ from somewhere and suddenly they can top single target fights parring with mages.

    I'll post the logs then ;D! (Although I am topping the meters in my guild)
    Last edited by Mollox; 2013-06-14 at 12:07 PM.

  9. #9
    Legendary! Treelife's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mollox View Post
    But in all seriousness I understand how the rankings should work
    [...]
    (Although I am topping the meters in my guild)
    So you're comparing to Sims/world ranks then as I thought?

  10. #10
    qiu qiu qiu Enh were almost death for 14 raid tiers so they deserv some love now

    and about DK , pvp is one of the problem why DK dont get damage buff , they got smae situation like Huners , in PvE thye bouth in the middle of the line but in PvP they do so ridiculus about of damage that ...any biger damage buff woud make thatincredible OP in PvP

    only way to buff DK damge by Blizz is to make DK ability do diffrent amout of damage in pve and PvP like for example Mage frost Bomb or totaly redisaing DK

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by kubuntu View Post
    qiu qiu qiu Enh were almost death for 14 raid tiers so they deserv some love now

    and about DK , pvp is one of the problem why DK dont get damage buff , they got smae situation like Huners , in PvE thye bouth in the middle of the line but in PvP they do so ridiculus about of damage that ...any biger damage buff woud make thatincredible OP in PvP

    only way to buff DK damge by Blizz is to make DK ability do diffrent amout of damage in pve and PvP like for example Mage frost Bomb or totaly redisaing DK
    DKs were really strong in 3.0 and 3.1, so they already had the love enh has currently.
    Because I want to say this every single day but don't want it to get a drag:
    1) The ingame store will only sell timesaver items. It won't affect balance.
    2) No, getting to 100 in half the time isn't pay2win. raids don't start until the second week, everyone has time to get there.
    4) getting charms faster is also not pay2win. getting those is easy, but not everyone has the time or want for dailies.

  12. #12
    Legendary! Treelife's Avatar
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    Much quicker to find it myself I guess.

    http://www.wow-heroes.com/character/eu/Kazzak/Mollox/

    It's hard to say really because all the fights you've been in the whole raid's DPS has been pretty low, so like I said earlier, other people's DPS will bring your personal DPS down. Which is why you can't compare to other fights.

    Compare my Durumu kill to yours. Btw, this was the first time I'd played Unholy in a while.
    Me: 162k
    You: 150k

    You're 10m, I'm 25m - Your fight was 45 sec faster - You didn't use AMS to get Runic Power - You let your diseases fall off - You had about 2% lower DT uptime - I got 7 Feather proccs, you got 6 (though your % uptime was higher) - I used my CDs three times, you used yours twice. Etc.

    Many variables and hardly worth comparing the DPS from other kills. The AMS, diseases and cooldown use can always be improved though, which is fine to look at.
    Last edited by Treelife; 2013-06-14 at 12:55 PM. Reason: Added "m" next to 10/25. Looked like I was calling you a 10 year old.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Treelife View Post
    I don't get why people are suddenly saying Death Knights DPS has dropped. It hasn't.

    So, first, yes it has. We lost 5% strength, lowering our dps by about 3% overall. More importantly, we dropped relative to many other classes because we have trouble with stats like haste getting too high, other classes got buffed or benefit more from 8 free ilevels, etc.

    http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Spec_Scor...10000000000000

    Note how Unholy was sitting at or near the top for much of the tier, but is now being passed by many other classes? And some other classes that were very low are now nearly even with us? That is a real thing that is happening.

    What you've said about his personal performance is likely spot on, but that does not at all change the fact that Unholy has gone from VERY good at the beginning of the tier to bottom-half at best now.

  14. #14
    Legendary! Treelife's Avatar
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    That's mostly because of the TotT nerf, though, not just the Strength. The statement I made about Death Knight DPS was just that, for Death Knights (i.e. not specifically Unholy). Understandably confusing though since it was a blanket statement.

  15. #15
    Luckily the skill cap on DKs is high, so as long as you play your best you should still easily compete with other classes or top them. It doesn't matter what parses say, what matters is your dps in your raid vs players of equivalent gear and skill. If you're behind, hate to break it to you, but you're most likely the problem, not the class.

  16. #16
    The Lightbringer Raugnaut's Avatar
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    "middle of the pack" is where all dps SHOULD be for PvE according to Blizz, and according to them, they see that most dps are in that area (with some outliers being fed rogue tricks and stuff)
    Anyone ever notice how the sun seems to shine silverish now? Didn't it used to shine goldish? PM me if you've noticed this.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moounter View Post
    I think your problem is a lack of intellect.

  17. #17
    cant remember the last time mages or locks were "middle of the pack" stop saying dks in middle of pack is fne.. coz most often that really means Dks being bottom of the pack like they are right now. frost is 2nd worst dps specc barring subtlelty or marks hunters in 10h.

  18. #18
    Mechagnome Italiandk's Avatar
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    There is already another thread that's more than enough.
    Death Knight -> Italiandk
    Shaman -> Cashrain
    Paladin -> Healyoutru
    Priest -> Ängel
    Monk -> Skadoosh
    Mage -> Icydeath

  19. #19
    Grunt Mollox's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Treelife View Post
    Much quicker to find it myself I guess.

    It's hard to say really because all the fights you've been in the whole raid's DPS has been pretty low, so like I said earlier, other people's DPS will bring your personal DPS down. Which is why you can't compare to other fights.

    Compare my Durumu kill to yours. Btw, this was the first time I'd played Unholy in a while.
    Me: 162k
    You: 150k

    You're 10m, I'm 25m - Your fight was 45 sec faster - You didn't use AMS to get Runic Power - You let your diseases fall off - You had about 2% lower DT uptime - I got 7 Feather proccs, you got 6 (though your % uptime was higher) - I used my CDs three times, you used yours twice. Etc.

    Many variables and hardly worth comparing the DPS from other kills. The AMS, diseases and cooldown use can always be improved though, which is fine to look at.
    Like I've said on the Blizz forums to you

    Uhm how did you come to the conclusion that this was a player issue?
    Did it ever occur to you that perhaps I was unlucky with an early feather proc therefore I used a second Unholy Blight to reapply stronger diseases with surge of power and feather up?

    And what the hell are you talking about better CD usage, how am I supposed to squeeze 3x Unholy Frenzies and Gargoyles in a 6 min kill???? Oh Sorry we didn't take as long as you did so I couldn't use a third CD like you (See what I did thar?).

    Also it's nice to have more warriors in your 25 team to spam those banners isn't it?

    Did it also occur to you that the logs you linked are pretty much out-dated and was in the same reset when 5.3 just launched, meaning my ilvl (therefore my stats) were a lot lower, when comparing it to your current 162k?

    It's actually laughable...

    I can also go over your logs and talk about how you aren't using enough of this and that, but I really don't need to (And yes you are making plenty of them mistakes )

    But yeah you're right I can AMS more on Durumu, but the only places to AMS would be during the beam and color blind phases, which isn't really haslling me that much and squeezing an extra 400 - 500 DPS from a few extra DC's is the least of my concerns.

    Guys guys guys, this isn't about me not doing good, it's more about how FAAAR at the bottom we are in the meters, I wouldn't care if it was 5k - 12k behind, but being 50k behind Shamans, Mages and MONKS feels bad
    Last edited by Mollox; 2013-06-15 at 01:19 PM.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Mollox View Post
    Like I've said on the Blizz forums to you

    Uhm how did you come to the conclusion that this was a player issue?
    Did it ever occur to you that perhaps I was unlucky with an early feather proc therefore I used a second Unholy Blight to reapply stronger diseases with surge of power and feather up?

    And what the hell are you talking about better CD usage, how am I supposed to squeeze 3x Unholy Frenzies and Gargoyles in a 6 min kill???? Oh Sorry we didn't take as long as you did so I couldn't use a third CD like you (See what I did thar?).

    Also it's nice to have more warriors in your 25 team to spam those banners isn't it?

    Did it also occur to you that the logs you linked are pretty much out-dated and was in the same reset when 5.3 just launched, meaning my ilvl (therefore my stats) were a lot lower, when comparing it to your current 162k?

    It's actually laughable...

    I can also go over your logs and talk about how you aren't using enough of this and that, but I really don't need to (And yes you are making plenty of them mistakes )

    But yeah you're right I can AMS more on Durumu, but the only places to AMS would be during the beam and color blind phases, which isn't really haslling me that much and squeezing an extra 400 - 500 DPS from a few extra DC's is the least of my concerns.

    Guys guys guys, this isn't about me not doing good, it's more about how FAAAR at the bottom we are in the meters, I wouldn't care if it was 5k - 12k behind, but being 50k behind Shamans, Mages and MONKS feels bad
    What's laughable is your reaction to a guy trying to explain to you JUST how many factors there are, when concerning yourself with DPS. He did at no point call you bad or say that you should squeeze 9 minutes of CD's into a 6 minute fight, he simply pointed out that this factors into a DPS difference, since your fight is different. (also, your argument about not using AMS made me literally laugh out loud, why oh why would you NOT use the power of AMS????)

    One thing that's really obvious (atleast in my raid experience) about ToT is that this instance LOVES ranged dps and multi dotting / burst AOE (in some cases). Often i find myself spreading diseases just to have adds die so fast it was basically pointless.

    Overall i find DK's to be slightly above the middle and especially if played correctly / using festerblight correctly they can be absurdly strong. But yes, ranged will almost always have advantages (gotta love kil jaeden's cunning nerf in 5.4 ).
    Last edited by Frode; 2013-06-15 at 04:10 PM. Reason: Grammar mistakes!

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