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  1. #1

    Tanks in Rated Play and Holinka

    So I was browsing Holinka's twitter responses and these two kinda peaked my interest.

    Holinka ‏@holinka 19 Jun

    @Venaliter @Ghostcrawler @NMe84 The tank fantasy is "I'm invincible." Hard to reconcile with enjoyable PvP gameplay. Not saying we can't try

    Holinka ‏@holinka 19 Jun

    @spacheco1986 @Venaliter @Ghostcrawler @NMe84 so why play regular dps if tank niche does same thing but doesn't die?
    Made me think about back in wrath when you could play tank specs in arena for a brief period and their niche was control but not damage before the tank damage buffs. Remember those prot paladins and prot warriors locking your casters down and just being pains in the ass?

    I am curious if it would be interesting to be able to take a tank class into arena that has all of the tank tools they have now as far as survivability but they have a spec debuff that lowers damage by a percentage. Would make it so you could take a meat shield to be up in the front of the fray dictating position and controlling the team while at the same time nerfing the amount of damage they do to make them not a damage threat, but a control threat. Would be interesting to see the holy trinity in team form in arena play. I think prot specs would also need a guard type ability ala star wars. I also think that this would solve some problems people have in twos of getting trolled while they are trying to cap.

    Thoughts before I retweet Holinka?

  2. #2
    The problem is that before, I imagine you're thinking about ATC mainly, the prot Warrior CC had shockwave and concussive blow (which arms didn't have), nowadays all of a classes CC is just lumped into their talent trees.

    You'd either have to remove crowd control from talent trees, and give the better cc to only tank specs (which would probably cause an uproar), or add even more CC into the game to give tanks that niche back.
    Last edited by Snuggli; 2013-06-21 at 04:04 PM.

  3. #3
    Yeah, that's why I was thinking about giving the tanks the guard ability from Star Wars. I was thinking a little bit about prot warriors ( I played one for a while that season) and it was fun disarming, charging, stunning, slowing, fearing, etc. What I was more thinking of was when I was on the receiving end of a prot paladin. They had excellent support tools for their team (freedom, bop, heals) and some control in hoj and avenger's shield. They played like the ultimate support class.

    I would love to at least think about the idea of opening some comps up to the tanks specs by making their niche control/support with high survivability at the cost of damage. You are correct though that some things would have to change pretty radically for the tank specs because DKs get nothing but self survivability, druids at least get some peel/offheals, I don't know much about brewmasters but warriors/paladins would need the fewest changes.

  4. #4
    Banned Ryan Cailan Ebonheart's Avatar
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    This is old news. Blizzard has already stated numerous times they don't like tanks in pvp. I think part of the reason they don't want Swtor type tanks or support role tanks in pvp is because it would probably cause more balance issues. You would probably have to overhaul every dps classes defensive capabilities as well as nerfing healers.

    Off Topic:
    I really enjoyed my Jedi Guardian in Swtor when I played that game. It was probably one of the most rewarding and skill capped classes in that game if you knew what you were doing. It's a shame my PC can't run it well anymore or I would be still playing that game.

  5. #5
    To continue the OT but still be slightly on topic, I actually liked lots of the "ideas" of swtor pvp because honestly not a lot of stuff exactly worked when it shipped. I am curious why Blizzard did not steal more from them (the countdown at the start of the match is direct from them). The things I think that would be pretty cool are as follows:

    1.) CC Trinket Baseline skill for all.
    2.) Resolve. For those that did not play swtor it was a power bar that filled up a little bit every time you were CCed. Once the bar was filled you were immune to CC of any kind for a short period before it reset. Great idea, buggy as hell in production.
    3.) Healers healed, DPS shot things, tanks protected. I am starting to think that the real reason PvP was more fun back in the day was because the classes were different.

  6. #6
    Tanks aren't allowed to have fun in pvp, only dps and healers.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Khorine View Post
    Tanks aren't allowed to have fun in pvp, only dps and healers.
    That's because for a tank to have fun in PvP, things have to be boring for everyone else.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Khorine View Post
    Tanks aren't allowed to have fun in pvp, only dps and healers.
    'tank' is a pve construction.
    " I need a sec, my wrists hurt from spamming slam so hard. Playing cleave vs cleave is tough stuff guys"

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by kosechi View Post
    'tank' is a pve construction.
    I'm sorry, I don't remember reading this in the manual. Oh, that's right, it's not there, you just pulled it out of your ass.

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-22 at 03:45 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Tya View Post
    That's because for a tank to have fun in PvP, things have to be boring for everyone else.
    As opposed to healers which make things very fun.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Khorine View Post
    I'm sorry, I don't remember reading this in the manual. Oh, that's right, it's not there, you just pulled it out of your ass.[COLOR="red"
    The manual also says Tauren have no mounts.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Khorine View Post
    I'm sorry, I don't remember reading this in the manual. Oh, that's right, it's not there, you just pulled it out of your ass.[COLOR="red"]
    'tanks' and 'tanking' are pve concepts. they are a pve construction. i can't exactly build threat against another player unless spamming /spit macros at him counts.

    they have no place in pvp
    " I need a sec, my wrists hurt from spamming slam so hard. Playing cleave vs cleave is tough stuff guys"

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by kosechi View Post
    'tanks' and 'tanking' are pve concepts. they are a pve construction. i can't exactly build threat against another player unless spamming /spit macros at him counts.

    they have no place in pvp
    No ?! Tell that to any healer that does pvp.

    Do not confuse Blizzard's inability to create useful roles for tanks, with general lack of purpose. SWTOR, for example, has tanks working in pvp and with actual roles in it.

  13. #13
    Legendary! Korgoth's Avatar
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    No Tanks in PvP!

    What Blizzard needs to do at this point is pick 1 spec from every class and completely overhaul it for pvp. If your class heals, its that one. No tanks. Tanking is a pve activity of being a moving wall the mob sticks to. There is no place for that in PvP. And dont try and give me that horseshit damage dealt debuff taunt crap from SWTOR. That games pvp played like shit to the point they are giving it away for free.

    It's bad enough Blizzard thought they could handle adding in offspecs to pvp. They couldnt. They cant handle adding in Tanks. The only way WoW PvP becomes actually good again is if the Devs limit the amount of thought needed to only 11 specs. Maybe they can handle that.
    "Gamer" is not a bad word. I identify as a gamer. When calling out those who persecute and harass, the word you're looking for is "asshole." @_DonAdams
    When you see someone in a thread making the same canned responses over and over, click their name, click view forum posts, and see if they are a troll. Then don't feed them.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Korgoth View Post
    No Tanks in PvP!

    What Blizzard needs to do at this point is pick 1 spec from every class and completely overhaul it for pvp. If your class heals, its that one. No tanks. Tanking is a pve activity of being a moving wall the mob sticks to. There is no place for that in PvP. And dont try and give me that horseshit damage dealt debuff taunt crap from SWTOR. That games pvp played like shit to the point they are giving it away for free.

    It's bad enough Blizzard thought they could handle adding in offspecs to pvp. They couldnt. They cant handle adding in Tanks. The only way WoW PvP becomes actually good again is if the Devs limit the amount of thought needed to only 11 specs. Maybe they can handle that.

  15. #15
    Titan apepi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Cailan Ebonheart View Post
    This is old news. Blizzard has already stated numerous times they don't like tanks in pvp. I think part of the reason they don't want Swtor type tanks or support role tanks in pvp is because it would probably cause more balance issues. You would probably have to overhaul every dps classes defensive capabilities as well as nerfing healers.

    Off Topic:
    I really enjoyed my Jedi Guardian in Swtor when I played that game. It was probably one of the most rewarding and skill capped classes in that game if you knew what you were doing. It's a shame my PC can't run it well anymore or I would be still playing that game.
    I loved my Darkness tank back in swtor, I was pretty much unkillable. Could solo just about any class.

    I think taking tanks out of pvp is a mistake, every role should have a role to play. If not do not offer them. The debuff to tanks was the last string holding them on.
    Time...line? Time isn't made out of lines. It is made out of circles. That is why clocks are round. ~ Caboose

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Khorine View Post
    No ?! Tell that to any healer that does pvp.

    Do not confuse Blizzard's inability to create useful roles for tanks, with general lack of purpose. SWTOR, for example, has tanks working in pvp and with actual roles in it.
    as a healer that does pvp.
    what?

    so am i supposed to wait for sunders so someone can be peeled off me?
    there is quite a bit more to tanking then just taunts and very little of it has any real use in pvp.

    i don't remember swtor pvp being particularly good, so i don't know why you are comparing the two.
    " I need a sec, my wrists hurt from spamming slam so hard. Playing cleave vs cleave is tough stuff guys"

  17. #17
    Titan apepi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kosechi View Post
    as a healer that does pvp.
    what?

    so am i supposed to wait for sunders so someone can be peeled off me?
    there is quite a bit more to tanking then just taunts and very little of it has any real use in pvp.

    i don't remember swtor pvp being particularly good, so i don't know why you are comparing the two.
    If my memory is correct, swtor tanks were able to redirect a % of damage to them instead of the intended target.
    Time...line? Time isn't made out of lines. It is made out of circles. That is why clocks are round. ~ Caboose

  18. #18
    Herald of the Titans Syridian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by apepi View Post
    I loved my Darkness tank back in swtor, I was pretty much unkillable. Could solo just about any class.

    I think taking tanks out of pvp is a mistake, every role should have a role to play. If not do not offer them. The debuff to tanks was the last string holding them on.
    How is this a good thing? How is your ''unkillable, can kill anything else one on one'' tank in PvP a good idea? This is why the blues talk about ''designing games as a gamer''. You'd make it fun for you, and the people who ''can't kill your tank'' can go fish.

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-22 at 11:25 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by apepi View Post
    If my memory is correct, swtor tanks were able to redirect a % of damage to them instead of the intended target.
    Warhammer Online has 'Guard' which did the same. All this meant was that certain classes/specs were shit unless they got a tank buddy. They then usually became OP with one. That's not exactly a great role.

  19. #19
    I remember in Wrath playing with a Prot Paladin at 2200+ that could crit for over 50% of people's health and was also nearly unkillable. Good times.

    Tanks don't belong in PvP, end of story. They're annoying to deal with, even if they can't kill anyone by themselves, the fact that killing one takes so god damn long and doesn't pose any challenge is just frustrating. Blood DKs, for example, can live an extremely long time. They'll never kill me, it isn't possible, I can out damage their DPS, but they have so many CDs that regen so much health that killing one takes far longer than it should if I don't have offensive CDs up. It's just annoying, and has no place in PvP.

  20. #20
    Titan apepi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syridian View Post
    How is this a good thing? How is your ''unkillable, can kill anything else one on one'' tank in PvP a good idea? This is why the blues talk about ''designing games as a gamer''. You'd make it fun for you, and the people who ''can't kill your tank'' can go fish.

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-22 at 11:25 PM ----------



    Warhammer Online has 'Guard' which did the same. All this meant was that certain classes/specs were shit unless they got a tank buddy. They then usually became OP with one. That's not exactly a great role.

    I was very strong with the spec, not many people were though. I was able to kill them with other classes that I had, so it was very much skill based. Someone that is hard to kill only really ruins 1v1, after 1v1 the ability not being able to die is not that useful if you can not even win. Yeah you could run a team with 7 tanks and 3 healers but nothing would ever die, so it would be stale mate. The idea tanks would ruin pvp is a false assumption.
    Time...line? Time isn't made out of lines. It is made out of circles. That is why clocks are round. ~ Caboose

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