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  1. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by kosechi View Post
    because there are quite a few comps that don't work with mages or warlocks and do work with hunters

    ret/hunter/healer, PHD and beastcleave are all examples of this.
    Maybe now, but you didnt see very many 2k+ rets during Cata, same with Hunters, lol. It seriously seemed like everyone over 2K rating was either RMP or RLS. I remember looking at the rankings on ArenaJunkies and kind of lol'ing that if you weren't one of those classes it felt like you couldn't compete beyond a certain rating.

  2. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by achromatickang View Post
    Maybe now, but you didnt see very many 2k+ rets during Cata, same with Hunters, lol. It seriously seemed like everyone over 2K rating was either RMP or RLS. I remember looking at the rankings on ArenaJunkies and kind of lol'ing that if you weren't one of those classes it felt like you couldn't compete beyond a certain rating.
    i saw lots of 2k+ rets during cata. i was one of them. it was one of the better represented melee in the mid range. s11 was one of ret's best seasons ever due to ret/dk/priest synergy, which one probably the only cleave comp with representation at high ratings. and the success of triple dps's ability to counter bad pve geared RLSes who were carried by their legendaries.

    ret was even pretty decent pre-wog nerf in S9 because of its endless healing output ( if you thought it's offhealing in s11 was bad? you never saw it in s9) even though it was completely trash in pve.
    " I need a sec, my wrists hurt from spamming slam so hard. Playing cleave vs cleave is tough stuff guys"

  3. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by kosechi View Post
    i saw lots of 2k+ rets during cata. i was one of them. it was one of the better represented melee in the mid range. s11 was one of ret's best seasons ever due to ret/dk/priest synergy, which one probably the only cleave comp with representation at high ratings. and the success of triple dps's ability to counter bad pve geared RLSes who were carried by their legendaries.

    ret was even pretty decent pre-wog nerf in S9 because of its endless healing output ( if you thought it's offhealing in s11 was bad? you never saw it in s9) even though it was completely trash in pve.
    On Blackrock (Horde) I seriously never saw a Ret Paladin over 1800 rating, but I also canceled my subscription a few weeks after Dragon Soul came out because I got irritated by Heroic Vial killing me repeatedly inside of a cheap shot.

  4. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by Yvaelle View Post
    if an enemy hunter stampedes, and/or a rogue drops a smoke bomb on your healer - and you binding shot them when your healer moves out, you just shut down their big burst window using a 25(?) second cooldown: that's going to be awesome for BM versus thugcleave/PHD.
    if hunter stampede, your binding shot shuts down their big burst window. sorry musta read wrong
    Last edited by Blingtown; 2013-06-26 at 04:10 AM.

  5. #85
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    Lol every warrior who's played the class for years saw what was coming from a mile away...and we posted about it constantly before it happened. We get good, get overnerfed, become horrible for the rest of the expansion. It's currently painful to play a warrior. Rage starved, barely any utility, no dmg outside of cooldowns. I completely missed when warriors became op as hell so I went from playing the worst class in the game in Cata, quitting and coming back to the worst class in MoP. I really hope they continue to make changes for next patch. Being so terrible in both PvP and PvE makes this game extremely difficult to enjoy, especially when you play on a dead server on a terrible battlegroup like I do.

    Crossing my fingers for warrior buffs and virtual realms next patch.
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  6. #86
    Moderator Yvaelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blingtown View Post
    if hunter stampede, your binding shot shuts down their big burst window. sorry musta read wrong
    Right, where as if your fighting beastcleave they will drop Windwalk during their burst cycle - and a root won't be able to peel the zoo, but binding shot always works Plus you can binding shot to peel inside a smoke bomb, which is pretty clutch. That binding shot is good vs stampede isn't the same thing as saying stampede is the big hunter cooldown, stampede is also good against casters who are moving - but the W key isn't the big cooldown of casters
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  7. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by achromatickang View Post
    On Blackrock (Horde) I seriously never saw a Ret Paladin over 1800 rating, but I also canceled my subscription a few weeks after Dragon Soul came out because I got irritated by Heroic Vial killing me repeatedly inside of a cheap shot.
    off the top of my head i can think of 4 rets who got gladiator in bloodlust and another 10 or so who ranged from 2k-2.5k. ret's representation was quite good, even in such a competitive battlegroup. blackrock is in bloodlust by the way.

    ret was pretty gear dependent which was unfortunate, but you could get very far even wearing raid finder 2set. a heroic 2set and a 416 gurthalak was just as much a free 2k as a legendaries were.

    my problem with ret representation right now is that its not because ret is really strong the way it was in cata. its because hunters are so stupid and low skillcap. take the hunter out of the comp and ret is pretty average.
    Last edited by kosechi; 2013-06-26 at 04:50 AM.
    " I need a sec, my wrists hurt from spamming slam so hard. Playing cleave vs cleave is tough stuff guys"

  8. #88
    Some observations looking at this site:

    1. There is some serious wintrading going on in the EU data (top team wearing greens?) Maybe this also explains big rating inflation and we see all top realms belong to EU??
    2. Some dude in this thread said humans 34% undead 18%. Did he look at US Bloodlust data? 90% Horde.
    3. Hunters and Shamans everywhere. Not a single warrior in sight. Does this mean Blizzard should revert all the warrior nerfs ASAP?
    4. Something is very wrong with Monks. All specs Consistently at the bottom since this expansion. Blizzard should stop fearing S5 DKs repeat and need buff the shit out of monks.

  9. #89
    I dont think monks are that weak (specially MW, he has amazing utiliy for 3s and 5s), it is just people dont like the class.
    Time is on our side
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  10. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Cailan Ebonheart View Post
    Hunters still have a high skill cap. They just have a low skill floor now due to the dead zone changes. The reason hunters were largely unpopular in cataclysm was because on top of knowing how to effectively control and silence your opponent, you also needed amazing positioning. It wasn't enjoyable to many hunters to play a class that was completely useless in close quarters. That's what drew people away from the class. It had an absurd high skill floor.
    I think the removal of the dead zone is the biggest reason why hunters are so strong (easy) since MoP.

    Every type of damage dealer can be avoided somehow: a caster can be interupted, a melee can be kited. But a hunter cannot be avoided anymore by 'abusing' the dead zone, a hunter can't be interupted. And BM hunters (their pets) can even keep doing damage through pillars.

  11. #91
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    Look at the lock rep, guess its time for more corruption/cb nerfs.

    hunter representation was lower in cata because hunters took skill to do well on, not because they were bad. Good hunters did extremely well and regularly got gladiator/R1, bad hunters gave up because they couldn't be bothered to learn how to be better.
    This reminds me of cata locks- it was a bit complicated and not so friendly to get into thus putting a lot people off from playing it, but once you learned it well comps like RLS and MLS were rank1 viabel even without legendaries. and you could do good even without a shaman backing you up
    Last edited by Naztrak; 2013-06-26 at 10:16 AM.

  12. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Naztrak View Post
    This reminds me of cata locks- it was a bit complicated and not so friendly to get into thus putting a lot people off from playing it, but once you learned it well comps like RLS and MLS were rank1 viabel even without legendaries. and you could do good even without a shaman backing you up
    The difference between having a shaman healer and something else was big though. The synergy between shaman and lock was just too good and that was the main reason that lock-shaman-anything was viable in cataclysm.

  13. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by Darksoldierr View Post
    I dont think monks are that weak (specially MW, he has amazing utiliy for 3s and 5s), it is just people dont like the class.
    I don't think so. In this thread we are talking high rated teams here, where players are very competitive and will reroll whatever race/spec/class that gives them the biggest winning edge.

    Do you think "not liking the class" plays a decision role in the high-rated PVP environment?

  14. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by corebit View Post
    I don't think so. In this thread we are talking high rated teams here, where players are very competitive and will reroll whatever race/spec/class that gives them the biggest winning edge.

    Do you think "not liking the class" plays a decision role in the high-rated PVP environment?
    It does to an extent, I dislike mages and rets (mostly from a lore perspective) - so I've never taken either of those seriously in PvP. Fortunately there is rarely only one right option at any given time.
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  15. #95
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    Do you think "not liking the class" plays a decision role in the high-rated PVP environment?
    Of course it does. People reroll, hell they have to with the way balancing has been going, but what they reroll to is strongly based around "not liking the class."

    IMO it's why there are so many hunters. Warriors, Rogues, DKs pushed out, but players of those classes will identify with a weapon based class like hunter, more then a caster like Lock or Mage or Ele.
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  16. #96
    Epic! Naztrak's Avatar
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    The difference between having a shaman healer and something else was big though. The synergy between shaman and lock was just too good and that was the main reason that lock-shaman-anything was viable in cataclysm.
    No denying- shaman + lock was an awsome deal. But heaving a hpala for shadowcleave (american tournament any1?) or dudu was also very viable. as I said
    and you could do good even without a shaman backing you up
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



    I don't think so. In this thread we are talking high rated teams here, where players are very competitive and will reroll whatever race/spec/class that gives them the biggest winning edge.

    Do you think "not liking the class" plays a decision role in the high-rated PVP environment?
    Yes it does. There are a lot of R1 players that stick to their classes no matter what.
    Aside, I would personally never EVER roll a hunter even if it means getting good rating, its just too discusting. Same thing goes to wintrading and other crap.
    Last edited by Naztrak; 2013-06-26 at 07:54 PM.

  17. #97
    People take these stats and representation in general way too literally. Its as if people see the graphs and say "feral isnt op because ret is more represented" and leave it at that. Further there are limitations to the stats in that a disc priest could log out in shadow gear, tweaking the data, and teams camping their rating above 2200 from last season (read: rogues playing thug) skewing the results.

    All these stats are useful for is the same thing most stats are useful for -- identifying outliers in the data. I look at these stats and I get the following impressions:

    -Disc is the top healer by a decent margin.
    -Hunter is the top dps by a decent margin.
    -Warriors and Monks are the least represented by a decent margin. Monks one would expect to be the lowest due to it being a new class and not having a long history of people playing it at a high level and therefore its tough to compare on a representation stat like this. Warriors are one of the highest globally represented classes. I would expect this is an issue with warrirors being underpowered (which agrees with my general opinion).
    -The classes that can only fill 1 role are all behind the classes that can fill 2 roles, as they should be, with the exception of hunters.
    -Priests are over-represented in general, as they have 2 very viable specs.
    -Shamans and druids are in the same boat as priests, to a lesser degree.
    -Hybrid specs (feral/ele/ret/shadow) are outperforming most of the traditional pure dps specs (affliction, subtlety, unholy, arms) with the exception of frost mage and hunters.

    From there, I would say:
    -Its pretty obvious hunters are overpowered.
    -Disc may be overpowered, but to a lesser degree. I believe disc does well in short games, especially now with spirit shell, and both with and against rush down comps, which is what is happening in the current meta. They also synergize with hunters the best, who are over re

    I would also say that the hybrids I listed are typically stronger than the pures I listed.

  18. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by junn View Post
    I would also say that the hybrids I listed are typically stronger than the pures I listed.
    I wrote a big post about this in the other thread, but unholy and arms by most definitions of hybrids - are hybrids.

    Pures include mages and hunters, both of whom are doing very well this expansion - but which you didn't list: I realize that's why you didn't list them, but it skews your conclusion to exempt the pures that are doing the best, and include some of the weaker hybrids as "pures".
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  19. #99
    I would argue that warriors and DK's are not hybrids in PVP above 2200. I know they fit the definition of hybrid to some, but in this context I disagree. Blood and Prot have a representation of exactly zero above 2200.

    Mages and hunters are pures that are doing quite well, but they are the minority of what we are calling 'pures' (according to my defintion for arguments sake). Mage, Hunter, Lock, DK, Warrior, Rogue is 6 pures, 2 of which are doing well, and 1 of which I called out as clearly OP, and the other doing marginally well right now. Mages are there, but not over-represented by any means.

    Hybrid classes, being Ret, Enh, Ele, Feral, Shadow, Boomy, WW is 7, but WW is kind of an outlier because it is so under represented. You could argue Boomy and Enh are both under represented too because people (especially top players) are playing Feral and Ele, but thats a whole different argument.

    DPS strength according to the site goes (only includes top 10, 3 of which are healers):

    Hunter - way overpowered.
    Shadow - way overpowered in 5.2. I imagine a good # are camping their rating.
    Mage - due to shadow nerf in 5.3, probably over-represented by mages camping rating as well.
    Ret - only have 1 comp in top 10, probably being hugely skewed by the power of hunter/ret.
    Ele - with 3 competitive specs number is probably slightly low
    Feral - same as ele
    Rogue - 5.2 thug put was +300 rating for any rogue that could open well. Camping rating.

    So top 10 has 4 hybrids and 3 pures. Doesnt really support my conclusion much by itself, but when you think about the # of people that would call a pure their main, vs. Ele, or Ret their main, I would bet that they are way over-represented. By that I mean 100 warriors are pvp'ing, and only 10 of them are doing it successfully, compared to 25 rets are pvp'ing and 20 of them are doing it successfully.

    I think the strength of hunters is completely changing the whole meta game. Hunters go so well with some classes that it is completely skewing the whole system!

  20. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Cailan Ebonheart View Post
    No I'm tired of people acting like all of the damage comes from BM hunters in the retarded BM Hunter/Ret/Disc comps. Ret Paladin Burst with Avenger/Wings is literally unhealable it literally rivals 5.1 Warrior burst. The BM hunter is just their to make sure the healer can't do anything for 20 seconds and on top of that Blinding Light doesn't share DR with anything the hunter has. The Disc priest only makes this retarded cleave team even play more aggressively due to the insane shielding Disc can provide.

    Ret Paladins are almost as stupid as 5.0 Warriors were. But let's just pretend that they're balanced and blame BM hunters or better yet Mages. Mages are always the easiest and best scapegoat.
    Yeah, I charge stun someone for 7 seconds from 30 yards away and hit for a 300k off the GCD hit ALL the time on my Ret.

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