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  1. #101
    Moderator Yvaelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by junn View Post
    I would argue that warriors and DK's are not hybrids in PVP above 2200. I know they fit the definition of hybrid to some, but in this context I disagree. Blood and Prot have a representation of exactly zero above 2200.

    Mages and hunters are pures that are doing quite well, but they are the minority of what we are calling 'pures' (according to my defintion for arguments sake). Mage, Hunter, Lock, DK, Warrior, Rogue is 6 pures, 2 of which are doing well, and 1 of which I called out as clearly OP, and the other doing marginally well right now. Mages are there, but not over-represented by any means.
    By your definition of "classes where only one spec has representation above 2200", windwalkers are pures because mistweavers had 0% 2200+ representation in 3v3 prior to 5.3. Shadowpriests from 5.0->5.2 were Pures because Disc and Holy had a combined 0% representation above 2200 before Focused Will was brought back. Do you see the problem with defining pure/hybrid based on representation and not class design? It doesn't work. Shamans by the same token are frequently Pures because often both ele and enh are almost non-existent above 2200.


    Hybrid classes, being Ret, Enh, Ele, Feral, Shadow, Boomy, WW is 7, but WW is kind of an outlier because it is so under represented. You could argue Boomy and Enh are both under represented too because people (especially top players) are playing Feral and Ele, but thats a whole different argument.
    Same argument, it's my point Current representation cannot be what differentiates pures and hybrids.


    DPS strength according to the site goes (only includes top 10, 3 of which are healers):

    Hunter - way overpowered.
    Shadow - way overpowered in 5.2. I imagine a good # are camping their rating.
    Mage - due to shadow nerf in 5.3, probably over-represented by mages camping rating as well.
    Ret - only have 1 comp in top 10, probably being hugely skewed by the power of hunter/ret.
    Ele - with 3 competitive specs number is probably slightly low
    Feral - same as ele
    Rogue - 5.2 thug put was +300 rating for any rogue that could open well. Camping rating.

    So top 10 has 4 hybrids and 3 pures. Doesnt really support my conclusion much by itself, but when you think about the # of people that would call a pure their main, vs. Ele, or Ret their main, I would bet that they are way over-represented. By that I mean 100 warriors are pvp'ing, and only 10 of them are doing it successfully, compared to 25 rets are pvp'ing and 20 of them are doing it successfully.
    We can actually tell that by comparing 2200+ representation to global spec representation, we created a Popularity Quotient (PQ) on this forum back in 5.2 to describe this problem. The numbers were actually pretty surprising. So it turns out, Ret and Shadow are extremely popular specs - this is likely because they are the only DPS specs of their respective classes: so anyone who rolls a priest or paladin - but wants to play DPS - is necessarily Ret or Shadow.

    As a result, the global representation of these specs is very very high - it's not 100 warriors playing and 10 of them succeeding versus 25 rets playing and 20 succeeding - from what I remember it was something like twice as many Rets as Arms warriors. Rets were the most popular spec of any class actually, followed by only a ~3% difference to Shadow, no other spec came close to them in terms of popularity/spec loyalty.

    What was interesting about the finding was that while Shadow's representation was quite high in terms of an absolute number above 2200 compared to say, Windwalkers - Shadowpriests outnumbered Windwalkers globally by something absurd like 50:1, but above 2200 they outnumbered WW by a ratio less than half that - something like 23:1. If you only looked at the second ratio, you'd think WW was grossly underpowered and Shadow was grossly overpowered - but nobody thought Shadow was 27 times better than a Windwalker. If you adjust for both ratios - the global spriest population vs the WW population at the time - and their global 2200+ representation - you actually find that WW's were more likely to get 2200+ on average than Spriests.

    The WW population has since exploded now that they have gone through some borderline OP phases, but initially - that result was quite shocking when Shatreeplay was the top comp.

    I think the strength of hunters is completely changing the whole meta game. Hunters go so well with some classes that it is completely skewing the whole system!
    Agreed, it's the number and frequency of their instant CC's that is doing it - it's the ability to set up so many more powerful CC chains as a result without a risk of those chains being countered. Combined with some pretty solid burst phases, a near-immunity to most melee, and a ton of caster-annoyance tools (ie. Feign Death, Camo) - their kit is just too diverse overall - but their instant CC in particular too plentiful IMO.
    Last edited by Yvaelle; 2013-06-27 at 12:50 AM.
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  2. #102
    I still disagree with you that dk's warriors should be considered hybrids, but were arguing semantics so I'll let it be .

    Interesting point on PQ. I guess without dual spec completely limits the usefulness of the data even further because of this. Interesting about the WW especially!

    It will be interesting to see if hunters were toned down how the representation will shift. I would suspect mages would fill the gaps in a lot of the teams because the only thing keeping mages down right now is that they get destroyed by hunters.

    I would imagine disc's would also come down, as games would slow down (ie the hunter cant start a CC chain that keeps the other teams healer from playing the game while you burst) which would make the other healers stronger. As shadow is seen as a somewhat counter to hunters they might also come down. Rets may also go way down as they play well with hunters.

    Mage/ele/druid (or other healer) top comp in 5.4? Obviously way too early to call but could be a good guess. Might even see comp diversity!!!!!

  3. #103
    There should be comp diversity, but not comp stupidity. Look at hunter/ele/x for example - one class can lock a healer for at least 10-20s without trinkets and the other randomly spews out 200k combos on a bad day.

    Should also add a Realm filter in the dropdown menus

  4. #104
    Banned Ryan Cailan Ebonheart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yvaelle View Post
    By your definition of "classes where only one spec has representation above 2200", windwalkers are pures because mistweavers had 0% 2200+ representation in 3v3 prior to 5.3. Shadowpriests from 5.0->5.2 were Pures because Disc and Holy had a combined 0% representation above 2200 before Focused Will was brought back. Do you see the problem with defining pure/hybrid based on representation and not class design? It doesn't work. Shamans by the same token are frequently Pures because often both ele and enh are almost non-existent above 2200.
    Except your argument would hold true is the designers themselves didn't say they don't want tanks in pvp. That Blizzard has stated numerous times that Tanks in PvP are "Unfun" and the fact that they added additional debuffs to tanks who flag carry only asserts this point. If Blizzard tomorrow states that they don't want MW Monks in pvp, it just means that you're right.

    Also Death Knights and Warriors have no other role in pvp other than mostly being complete tunnel bots. Yeah sure they have stuns and fears but they can't off heal, they can't dispell, they don't have friendly life saving abilities like BoP. Their main goal is to stick on a target as much as realistically possible in and deal damage. That is what makes them pure melee. Nobody brings these brainless classes for utility or "defensive" utility if they were actual tank hybrids. Nope, you bring them for damage. It should also be noted that both classes cannot abuse anything from their tank specs. If they were true hybrids, Arms Warriors would have the ability to use Shield Barrier and Unholy DK's would have access to Bone Shield among other things.

    Retribution Paladins, Enhancement Shamans and Feral Druids all have spells where they can directly heal themselves or team mates. Healing Surge, Healing totem Flash of Light, WoG and Regrowth are Healing abilities that Dps specs of those classes can abuse. That is what makes them a Hybrid melee. I have no idea how you do not understand this.

  5. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Cailan Ebonheart View Post
    Retribution Paladins, Enhancement Shamans and Feral Druids all have spells where they can directly heal themselves or team mates. Healing Surge, Healing totem Flash of Light, WoG and Regrowth are Healing abilities that Dps specs of those classes can abuse. That is what makes them a Hybrid melee. I have no idea how you do not understand this.
    what you are calling 'hybrid melee' most people call 'support specs'
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  6. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Cailan Ebonheart View Post
    Except your argument would hold true is the designers themselves didn't say they don't want tanks in pvp. That Blizzard has stated numerous times that Tanks in PvP are "Unfun" and the fact that they added additional debuffs to tanks who flag carry only asserts this point. If Blizzard tomorrow states that they don't want MW Monks in pvp, it just means that you're right.

    Also Death Knights and Warriors have no other role in pvp other than mostly being complete tunnel bots. Yeah sure they have stuns and fears but they can't off heal, they can't dispell, they don't have friendly life saving abilities like BoP. Their main goal is to stick on a target as much as realistically possible in and deal damage. That is what makes them pure melee. Nobody brings these brainless classes for utility or "defensive" utility if they were actual tank hybrids. Nope, you bring them for damage. It should also be noted that both classes cannot abuse anything from their tank specs. If they were true hybrids, Arms Warriors would have the ability to use Shield Barrier and Unholy DK's would have access to Bone Shield among other things.

    Retribution Paladins, Enhancement Shamans and Feral Druids all have spells where they can directly heal themselves or team mates. Healing Surge, Healing totem Flash of Light, WoG and Regrowth are Healing abilities that Dps specs of those classes can abuse. That is what makes them a Hybrid melee. I have no idea how you do not understand this.
    i agree 100%-even though blizz has always said that warriors/dks ect are hybrids,because we can fill more then one role "dps/tank".i have always felt that warriors "arms/fury" are more of a "pure" then any of the so called pures- mages-rogues-locks ect.arms brings nothing more then damage and all the pures i have named have far better utility/cc then arms has.

    without top end damage/burst warriors are a dead class-we are seeing that more or less now.this = arms is a pure,like you said.

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-26 at 09:47 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by kosechi View Post
    what you are calling 'hybrid melee' most people call 'support specs'
    these "suppoert specs" as you called them ahve some of the best burst/damage in game to go along with off healing and a boat load of cc,warriors and dks dont.

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Cailan Ebonheart View Post
    It should also be noted that both classes cannot abuse anything from their tank specs. If they were true hybrids, Arms Warriors would have the ability to use Shield Barrier and Unholy DK's would have access to Bone Shield among other things.
    I think you're forgetting defensive stance and blood presence. The defensive bonuses they give are huge. Until the recent DC nerf to DKs, there was no down side to staying in blood.

    Not saying warriors and dks are fine, but to say neither of them benefit from having tanking abilities available in dps spec is willfull ignorance to try to make your point.

  8. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by Jubus View Post
    I think you're forgetting defensive stance and blood presence. The defensive bonuses they give are huge. Until the recent DC nerf to DKs, there was no down side to staying in blood.

    Not saying warriors and dks are fine, but to say neither of them benefit from having tanking abilities available in dps spec is willfull ignorance to try to make your point.
    The point to make is that a tank's job is prevent their target from going after their allies. Warriors and dks are unable to provide this "tank ability" in any better way than any other class/spec.

    A healer's job on the other hand is to prevent their ally's and their own deaths through healing. Something that the dps specs for shaman, druids, pallies and priests all provide.

    Thus PvP hybrids.
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  9. #109
    Moderator Yvaelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Cailan Ebonheart View Post
    Except your argument would hold true is the designers themselves didn't say they don't want tanks in pvp. That Blizzard has stated numerous times that Tanks in PvP are "Unfun" and the fact that they added additional debuffs to tanks who flag carry only asserts this point. If Blizzard tomorrow states that they don't want MW Monks in pvp, it just means that you're right.
    The terms pure and hybrid both come from the developers to describe the TBC-era PvE environment, they were never meant to be used to describe a PvP environment. People have tried to adapt them to describe what I call 'support' specs in pvp (versus 'star' specs, which are the ones scoring all the kills).


    Also Death Knights and Warriors have no other role in pvp other than mostly being complete tunnel bots. Yeah sure they have stuns and fears but they can't off heal, they can't dispell, they don't have friendly life saving abilities like BoP. Their main goal is to stick on a target as much as realistically possible in and deal damage. That is what makes them pure melee. Nobody brings these brainless classes for utility or "defensive" utility if they were actual tank hybrids. Nope, you bring them for damage. It should also be noted that both classes cannot abuse anything from their tank specs. If they were true hybrids, Arms Warriors would have the ability to use Shield Barrier and Unholy DK's would have access to Bone Shield among other things.

    Blood Presence and Defensive Stance. Ret Paladins don't get a Defensive Stance they can hide in, Bearcats did in Cataclysm - and they split Bear and Cat into a fourth spec just to prevent that - Cats don't do that now. Windwalkers don't swap to tank stance because theirs isn't half of what BP/DS are and the penalty for leaving their DPS stance is like triple that of DKs and Warriors.

    Of all the hybrids who have healer offspecs and tank offspecs - they gain off-heals, but not off-tank capability: warriors and dks can be tanks but not healers, so they gain off-tank capability (spell reflect) - that's no coincidence. Death Knights and Warriors are both way less susceptible to many CC's than other melee support specs, that's not a coincidence either - with the exception of roots, which work against them but not against rets/ferals/enh (the melee support healers).


    Retribution Paladins, Enhancement Shamans and Feral Druids all have spells where they can directly heal themselves or team mates. Healing Surge, Healing totem Flash of Light, WoG and Regrowth are Healing abilities that Dps specs of those classes can abuse. That is what makes them a Hybrid melee. I have no idea how you do not understand this.
    Warriors and Death Knights do have self-heals, second wind back when warriors were competitive would *always* outheal my spriest, in any match where a warrior was playing and we weren't grossly overmatched (and thus never got the warrior into Phase 2). Death Knights pet sacc, Conversion, lichborne+death coil, death strike, and AMS themselves (an absorption shield). They can also AMZ their teammates and death coil their teammates for shields. For classes with no direct self-healing, that seems like a lot of direct self-healing to me. The price rets/enh/feral pay for having heal procs is that they all take way more damage than you do - they have to actually manage their active mitigation via heals, while in the case of warriors and DKs sitting in BP/DS - and second winding/conversioning: your survivability is passive and automatic.
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  10. #110
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Cailan Ebonheart View Post
    It should also be noted that both classes cannot abuse anything from their tank specs.
    Both can and do, defensive stance/blood presence ?

  11. #111
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    they have to actually manage their active mitigation via heals, while in the case of warriors and DKs sitting in BP/DS - and second winding/conversioning: your survivability is passive and automatic.
    That is bullshit and you know it. It wasn't just stand there and let 2nd wind outheal shadow damage, it was shockwave, into silence, into charge stun, into LOS, and let 2nd wind top you back up to 35% between preventing damage.

    Then 2nd wind got shit on with the mortal wounds change, then shockwave got shit on with a 40s cd, and silence was out right removed, and warriors are now gone from arena. But hey those poor hybrids have to hit an instant cast to heal themselves for 60%. Thats rough.
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  12. #112
    Moderator Yvaelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Korgoth View Post
    That is bullshit and you know it. It wasn't just stand there and let 2nd wind outheal shadow damage, it was shockwave, into silence, into charge stun, into LOS, and let 2nd wind top you back up to 35% between preventing damage.

    Then 2nd wind got shit on with the mortal wounds change, then shockwave got shit on with a 40s cd, and silence was out right removed, and warriors are now gone from arena. But hey those poor hybrids have to hit an instant cast to heal themselves for 60%. Thats rough.
    I'm not saying warriors weren't over-nerfed - they were, I completely agree. But yes before 5.2, they would sit in D stance all game, and if ever they got below 35% they would automatically begin regenerating at an obscene rate - they didn't have to fuss about procs, or expend damage cooldowns for heals or lose utility to do so - it just automatically happened on their behalf. If they then combined it with stuns/silences/LoS during enemy burst cycles they were unkillable - but regular damage alone, even without being stunned/silence wasn't enough to get through D Stance + Resil + Second Wind up until 5.2, you had to save up burst cooldowns and not get peeled to burn through a warriors phase 2.

    This idea that warriors (or dks) have no advantages of tank 'hybridness', when warriors and dks both have strong defensive stances, regenerate 3% of max health per second, and alternately use spell reflect and death strike for survivability - just isn't true. They do have tank aspects to them, and that's unique compared to say Ferals or Rets or Windwalkers who gain healing-hybridness with their healer specs, but don't get tank-hybridness with their tank specs.

    I'd like to see the game push these niches further. If I had my way I'd divy it up more like this:

    Warrior, DKs - strong tanky support

    Rets, Balance, Feral, Windwalker - strong support heals, but reduced support utility

    Shadow, Ele, Enhancement - strong dispels (including defensive), but reduced support heals

    So I'd like to see something like giving Warriors Safeguard and/or vigilance baseline - they can use Safeguard as a root break, or they can use it as a mini defensive cooldown during an enemy burst cycle. Rets and such should receive or retain powerful support heals - they respond to an enemy burst cycle or a bad CC chain on their healer by temporarily (but effectively, while it lasts) taking over the healing role. Shadow + Shamans respond to a bad CC chain on their healer or an enemy burst cycle by dispelling their healer out of CC or dispelling bad debuffs off their ally.

    For those wondering what this means for supposed 'pures' - I'd like to see them all be more about powerful burst phases once a minute, I agree with Lulbalance that that should be a role they should excel at - but I don't think we should remove the 2-3 minute burst phases that the more support based specs have - the difference is support burst should be equally powerful, but relatively easier to peel (both of this is already true) - and should be less frequent.

    This means we could balance all burst to being about the same for every class, no class has to insta-gib people as their 'role' (mages, destro locks), and conversely no class has to be absent of burst as their 'role'. I'd also like to see a pretty significant reduction in instant CC - and possibly a rebalancing of all DR schools that is less patchworked and more logical.
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  13. #113
    Banned Ryan Cailan Ebonheart's Avatar
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    Since I'm too stupid to know how to divide quotes into one quote, some people are going to have to bear with me here.

    A) Defensive Stance and Blood Presence are just passive class specific abilities. It doesn't make them Tankier than anything else in the game. Hybrid casters or locks generally have 10% or 15% or even 25% damage reductions by just being a certain spec or using a certain glyph. I know for some this is being removed, but you get the point. The passive damage reductions are almost mandatory in today's pvp, it doesn't make Warriors or DK's anything special to have access to these presences. It should also be noted that before MoP, you would never catch a Warrior or DK in their tank presences. Warriors would sit Battle and DK's would sit Unholy. This is something that is MoP specific that I would like for them to fix.

    B) Lichborne, Conversion, Second Wind, Death Pact, any of the healing abilities that these classes have do not make them hybrids. If that were the case and what you say is true that would make Warlocks hybrids because they have multiple amounts of defensive cool downs most notably dark regeneration which is what basically is a Cataclysm Warriors Enraged Regeneration. Rogues would be hybrids because they have active defensive abilities such as feint and have multiple cool down specific defensives like Evasion, Combat Readiness and Cloak of shadows.

    Retribution, Enhancement and Feral are hybrids because their survivability can be casted on friendly players. You can't cast Death Pact on a friendly player. A warrior can't cast Second Wind on a friendly player. That is what makes them pures in a pvp situation. If WoW worked like Swtor's pvp (Which I'm not sure if you've played) Taunt and Dark Command would be actually useful. When I played my Jedi Guardian in a dps spec, I actually felt like a Hybrid because I could still taunt enemy players and protect friendly players in a dps spec. You cannot do that as an Arms Warrior or Unholy/Frost DK in Wow's pvp because Blizzard doesn't want the game to work that way.

    The only point I would like to concede which nobody has brought up is Warrior Safeguard. Safeguard is very much what a DPS/Tank hybrid would have an ability that protects allies. But even with that, my Warrior feels no different from my Rogue. My Rogue just has to be more active over my dumb Warrior. When I play both classes, I feel like I'm playing the same role (Which is a pure melee role). Both classes are brought to deal damage in melee range and not to act as protectors or support.

    Someone who brings a Retribution Paladin however is going to expect that Retribution Paladin to not only play a melee role, but to play a healer support role. There's a difference. It's why players like Vanguards don't play Warriors, DK's or Rogues. He has said numerous times that he doesn't play those classes is because all they bring to the game is just damage and to him its boring.

    Death Knight Damage dealers are nothing related to tanks. They are complete damage bots both specs and even Blood in PvP has no real ability to protect or support team mates. If it were season 5,6,7,8 I would possibly consider DK's Dps/Tank hybrids because back then each spec was an actual Dps/tank hybrid. Now Death Knights have been regulated to what Warrior specs are, but without the safeguard ability and physical reduction defensive abilities.

    That took me an hour to write. What a waste of time.

  14. #114
    Moderator Yvaelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Cailan Ebonheart View Post
    Since I'm too stupid to know how to divide quotes into one quote, some people are going to have to bear with me here.

    A) Defensive Stance and Blood Presence are just passive class specific abilities. It doesn't make them Tankier than anything else in the game. Hybrid casters or locks generally have 10% or 15% or even 25% damage reductions by just being a certain spec or using a certain glyph. I know for some this is being removed, but you get the point. The passive damage reductions are almost mandatory in today's pvp, it doesn't make Warriors or DK's anything special to have access to these presences. It should also be noted that before MoP, you would never catch a Warrior or DK in their tank presences. Warriors would sit Battle and DK's would sit Unholy. This is something that is MoP specific that I would like for them to fix.
    No caster has 25%. Locks had 10%, Spriests and Boomkins had 15% - all of us are losing all of that. We also have half your physical mitigation through armor (cloth vs plate), and 1/7th your avoidance (3% vs 21%). Before MoP DKs did dance to blood presence for survival all the time, since their inception. I haven't main a warrior since TBC, but in TBC and Vanilla Warriors stance danced all the time for survivability - and I feel like that wasn't at all rare since TBC: it was proper play, no?


    B) Lichborne, Conversion, Second Wind, Death Pact, any of the healing abilities that these classes have do not make them hybrids. If that were the case and what you say is true that would make Warlocks hybrids because they have multiple amounts of defensive cool downs most notably dark regeneration which is what basically is a Cataclysm Warriors Enraged Regeneration. Rogues would be hybrids because they have active defensive abilities such as feint and have multiple cool down specific defensives like Evasion, Combat Readiness and Cloak of shadows.
    My point is that the hybrid/pure delineation was never part of PvP terminology, it described PvE roles specific to Vanilla and TBC - and hasn't been used officially since then, apart from transition during early WotLK (on the topic of hybrid 5% DPS taxation). That when hybrid/pure was used, DKs and Warriors were both hybrids, not pures by official definition. What precisely is the difference between a heal you cast on yourself (ie. Renew), and a regen mechanic you use on yourself such as Second Wind, Conversion or Recuperate - apart from that Renew is usable on others (utility), requires way more effort (recast every 12 seconds), and heals for six times less than Second Wind / Conversion? The answer is that apart from the utility of putting it on others, both are self-heals - and the self-only ones are often the better self-heals. This is part of why 'hybrid' is meaningless in an era when DKs do crazy self-healing (and warriors did), and Mage shields are three times stronger than Spriest shields (not to mention Lock's Sacrificial Pact, which is 100% of their health pool).


    Retribution, Enhancement and Feral are hybrids because their survivability can be casted on friendly players. You can't cast Death Pact on a friendly player. A warrior can't cast Second Wind on a friendly player. That is what makes them pures in a pvp situation. If WoW worked like Swtor's pvp (Which I'm not sure if you've played) Taunt and Dark Command would be actually useful. When I played my Jedi Guardian in a dps spec, I actually felt like a Hybrid because I could still taunt enemy players and protect friendly players in a dps spec. You cannot do that as an Arms Warrior or Unholy/Frost DK in Wow's pvp because Blizzard doesn't want the game to work that way.
    I played TOR yes, but I wouldn't exactly hold it up as the pinnacle of MMO PvP, it was a mess last I tried. Originally that taunt mechanic was from Warhammer Online as far as I can tell - the Orc tank and Dwarf tank classes had it (I forget their class names respectively) - I played that also. In WoW PvP, the ability to taunt to disrupt burst cycles would be much too strong much too often - but I think something like a baseline Safeguard and/or Vigilance would be a good solution instead (either a shorter cooldown but tied to important warrior utility in the charge/root break, or a longer cooldown in the case of vigilance). It's something I agree they need to expand upon conceptually, but it's definitely in their minds. That's why Glyph of Death Coil and Safeguard exist.


    The only point I would like to concede which nobody has brought up is Warrior Safeguard. Safeguard is very much what a DPS/Tank hybrid would have an ability that protects allies. But even with that, my Warrior feels no different from my Rogue. My Rogue just has to be more active over my dumb Warrior. When I play both classes, I feel like I'm playing the same role (Which is a pure melee role). Both classes are brought to deal damage in melee range and not to act as protectors or support.
    I disagree. The warriors job on KFC even when it was successful was more about their control over the enemy team via Shockwave and Warbringer, and much less about their random chance to one-shot someone (Taste for Blood). All the casual PvP'rs were bitching about TfB because it was clearly unfair, but all high-end arena players were much more concerned about 100-0 warrior chain-stuns than they were about a 1/500 chance to get insta-gibbed when fighting KFC (since KFC ended so many matches even at high rating in the first 30 seconds).

    Rogues have always been at least as much about their control rather than their damage - in Thugcleave relatively briefly (mostly due to a trinket) rogue damage was high - but the truly dangerous thing about Thugcleave was the burst *in a smokebomb*: that's utility. Historically rogues have been a control class who sometimes has burst damage, that's very different than being a pure damage dealer - take Reckful getting Rank 1 using Warglaives at level 85 for example - stunlocks and smokebombs are the selling point of rogues, not shadowdance.


    Someone who brings a Retribution Paladin however is going to expect that Retribution Paladin to not only play a melee role, but to play a healer support role. There's a difference. It's why players like Vanguards don't play Warriors, DK's or Rogues. He has said numerous times that he doesn't play those classes is because all they bring to the game is just damage and to him its boring.
    Warriors and DK's have a lot of anti-control compared to Rets, apart from Roots - which are the opposite. My fears more often than not go full duration on Rets - I don't think a warrior has ever been full feared, and you have to fear a DK on cooldown for like 5 minutes before he runs out of fear breaks. The kind of support that a Ret brings in healing, is comparable in many ways to the increased control (and therefore decreased damage done) that a Rogue or DK or Warrior bring - Nerve Strike isn't a heal, but in some ways it's better than a heal: it's a reverse Shield Wall. Necrotic Strike, stuns, a flurry of spell pushback are all forms of damage reduction - and warriors, dks and rogues have more of all of that than Rets or Enh do (Ferals have Force of Nature, which is currently OP - but that's changing).


    Death Knight Damage dealers are nothing related to tanks. They are complete damage bots both specs and even Blood in PvP has no real ability to protect or support team mates. If it were season 5,6,7,8 I would possibly consider DK's Dps/Tank hybrids because back then each spec was an actual Dps/tank hybrid. Now Death Knights have been regulated to what Warrior specs are, but without the safeguard ability and physical reduction defensive abilities.

    That took me an hour to write. What a waste of time.
    Not sure what DK's you've been fighting - but my DK starts most matches by riding directly across mid arena - dismounting with Unholy Blight - and mauling whatever is in melee range with me while my teammates set up portals and move in at their leisure: that's pretty tanky. My DK has 56% physical reduction in Blood Presence, 21% avoidance, 25% bonus stamina, 10% passive damage reduction, conversion from 100% health to 0%, and death strike: again pretty tanky. Me sitting on an enemy caster gives them cast speed slows, pushbacks, interrupts and stuns - and I'm largely unpeelable between AMS / Lichborne / / Death's Advance / Desecrated Ground. The way my DK usually peels for my casters/healers is either Death Grip (the most literal peel), or Stangulate/Asphyxiate - but just being on target is essentially a peel if I pick the most susceptible caster in the room to being sat on.
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  15. #115
    Over 9000! apepi's Avatar
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    Makes no idfference for me, us monks still suck, does anyone happen to have one of rbg ratings?
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  16. #116
    Banned Ryan Cailan Ebonheart's Avatar
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    Okay I lose, I'm not going to bother responding. I don't feel like wasting anymore of my time. I'm not going to put up with the passive-aggressive responses from Yvaelle anymore. You can just flat out call me bad instead of making snide remarks about things you assume I don't understand. It would be better off that way.

    I've achieved duelist twice on my Warrior in wotlk, once on my DK in wotlk and currently main it today. I know for today's standards it doesn't mean shit. That is why I'm just a washed up "has been" scrub capped currently in the 1800 brackets. But don't assume I have no idea how to play a DK or understand it. You can make fun of my Rogues skills or knowledge though. I completely suck at that class even though I'm currently spending a lot of time on it.

  17. #117
    Quote Originally Posted by Yvaelle View Post

    My point is that the hybrid/pure delineation was never part of PvP terminology
    I think the point that myself and others are trying to make is that we (and many others) use the hybrid/pure vocabulary in pvp to mean specs that can heal others through standard healing spells that are not a dedicated healer spec. I have called rets/ferals/enh melee hybrids and boom/ele/spriest casters hybrids for as long as I can remember. Never once have I thought of a warrior as a hybrid in a pvp sense. If your saying its not part of the terminology I am saying we are making it part of the terminology.

  18. #118
    Moderator Yvaelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Cailan Ebonheart View Post
    Okay I lose, I'm not going to bother responding. I don't feel like wasting anymore of my time. I'm not going to put up with the passive-aggressive responses from Yvaelle anymore. You can just flat out call me bad instead of making snide remarks about things you assume I don't understand. It would be better off that way.

    I've achieved duelist twice on my Warrior in wotlk, once on my DK in wotlk and currently main it today. I know for today's standards it doesn't mean shit. That is why I'm just a washed up "has been" scrub capped currently in the 1800 brackets. But don't assume I have no idea how to play a DK or understand it. You can make fun of my Rogues skills or knowledge though. I completely suck at that class even though I'm currently spending a lot of time on it.
    I don't get where all this is coming from, I'm not being passive-aggressive or snide. The closest thing I could think of was:
    "I haven't mained a warrior since TBC, but in TBC and Vanilla Warriors stance danced all the time for survivability - and I feel like that wasn't at all rare since TBC: it was proper play, no?"

    Which was me asking you a question as someone who knows more about warriors TBC->MoP than I do. I feel like they were dancing that whole time when they wanted a little extra survivabilty - is that not true?

    I disagreed with you about warriors being brought solely for damage, because I always found their control to be the most annoying thing in 5.0->5.2 - I think I'm allowed to have a different opinion though.

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-28 at 01:19 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by thisnamesucks View Post
    I think the point that myself and others are trying to make is that we (and many others) use the hybrid/pure vocabulary in pvp to mean specs that can heal others through standard healing spells that are not a dedicated healer spec. I have called rets/ferals/enh melee hybrids and boom/ele/spriest casters hybrids for as long as I can remember. Never once have I thought of a warrior as a hybrid in a pvp sense. If your saying its not part of the terminology I am saying we are making it part of the terminology.
    I get that, couldn't we use different terms though? Ghostcrawler still throws hybrid and pure around sometimes, and according to Blizzard pures only include mages, locks, rogues and hunters. It will either get confusing for forum posters when a dev mentions hybrids generally, and they mean to include warriors and dks - or it will get confusing for new posters when you guys mention pures and they go by blizzard definitions: it would only make sense to the people in this thread I think.

    If we were to call DPS-with-off-heals 'supports', and everybody else 'stars' or something (or Carry's, to steal LoL terminology) - that could work - but then we run into the problems of the amount of CC that locks, mages, hunters and rogues are typically brought for - isn't that support? Certainly my aff lock feels like a support class despite that she doesn't heal others.
    Last edited by Yvaelle; 2013-06-28 at 01:21 AM.
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  19. #119
    Quote Originally Posted by Yvaelle View Post
    I get that, couldn't we use different terms though? Ghostcrawler still throws hybrid and pure around sometimes, and according to Blizzard pures only include mages, locks, rogues and hunters. It will either get confusing for forum posters when a dev mentions hybrids generally, and they mean to include warriors and dks - or it will get confusing for new posters when you guys mention pures and they go by blizzard definitions: it would only make sense to the people in this thread I think.

    If we were to call DPS-with-off-heals 'supports', and everybody else 'stars' or something (or Carry's, to steal LoL terminology) - that could work - but then we run into the problems of the amount of CC that locks, mages, hunters and rogues are typically brought for - isn't that support? Certainly my aff lock feels like a support class despite that she doesn't heal others.
    Ironically, right now me and my friends call booms/rets/ferals healers. When we play boom/dps/healer we say "oh shit double healer comp". We played against a ret/feral/disc at ~2100 and the ret and feral did as much healing as the disc, I won't mention how impossible it was to even attempt to land a kill.

  20. #120
    Yvaelle you're a moderator so I'm not gonna write exactly what I think, but most of what you are saying is mostly bullshit.

    Hybrid in pvp means a character who deals damage while he could spec healer. That's it. Warrior and DK are NOT hybrids, deal with it. Hybrid is dps+heal. I don't care about your pve terminology that comes from TBC.


    On top of that, you're implying that a warrior has more cc than a ret. LOL. Have you ever put a foot in an arena? Or even in a random bg for that matter.. The warrior has the worst CC in the entire game. A fear 1.5 minute and a shockwave 40s. That is all. Dont talk about other talent CC, we dont take them.

    Worst, you're trying to say a warrior is hard to kill. Are you aware its one of the most easy class to kill ? Well I should know it, as a warrior there is nothing easier to kill than another warrior.

    Even worse, you're saying a warrior is hard to cc. LOL². Its the easiest class to control. Oh yeah, we got an anti fear, which is a DPS boost usually. So we waste a damage cd to get out of a fear , right. Avatar is not used to break cc , its used to burst damage. So we wont use it. Safeguard is used to eat traps, not to get out of roots. Cause a healer trapped = you die, no matter what. So yeah, thats it about our great cc defense mechanisms.

    So please know what you're talking about before.. actually talking about it, thanks. Being moderator doesnt give you the right to say nonsense and get along with it.


    Quote Originally Posted by Yvaelle View Post
    I don't get where all this is coming from, I'm not being passive-aggressive or snide. The closest thing I could think of was:
    "I haven't mained a warrior since TBC, but in TBC and Vanilla Warriors stance danced all the time for survivability - and I feel like that wasn't at all rare since TBC: it was proper play, no?"

    Which was me asking you a question as someone who knows more about warriors TBC->MoP than I do. I feel like they were dancing that whole time when they wanted a little extra survivabilty - is that not true?

    I disagreed with you about warriors being brought solely for damage, because I always found their control to be the most annoying thing in 5.0->5.2 - I think I'm allowed to have a different opinion though.[COLOR="red"]
    That, is showing you dont pvp at all. Warriors are still stance dancing a lot. Its not even hard to notice, a big icon pops right above the warrior head each time he changes his stance.
    If he's focused, or THINKING he will get switched to, you will see a shield above his head. If nobody is attacking him, you will see two maces above his head.
    Last edited by kamran; 2013-06-28 at 02:18 AM.

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