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  1. #21
    I strongly disagree that the new talent system is "dumbed down".
    There used to be many more talents to select but not really more than a couple of real choices, and those "choices" usually had next to no impact on how you played.
    I'll take 4-6 real talent options with more meaningful glyphs over a screen full of mandatory talents any day. In WotLK I could go a whole patch without changing anything as a prot pally, now there's hardly a boss in ToT where I use exactly the same talents and glyph combos.

    I can't say I like lfr or all the dailies but end game hm raiding is as good as ever imo.

  2. #22
    OP please link your 13/13H character with a low level boots on (for verification), else your entire argument is void. All I am reading is "I don't do heroic modes, so i'll complain about the game not being challenging." Most people who complain about the game not being challenging haven't even beat normals.

    Also the new talent system is not dumbed down, it allows you to swap skills depending on the fight. If anything it's more complex, 99% of people used the exact same talents before this happened.

    I could make a post as long as yours, correcting everything you said.. but many people here already stated it.
    Last edited by tyrindor; 2013-06-24 at 02:06 PM.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by swagster View Post
    I want a challenge, I want to have to think, I want that excitement back.
    No you don't, you want to complain, it's why most of what you've gibbered on here about isn't for you, but for some reason you feel it takes something away from how you play.

    Tooltips tell you how to use spells? You're shocked by this?
    Talent Trees, oh how I miss having 2 floating points to spend as I want! Please don't pretend what we had before was better, it really wasn't, at least now there's some choice, it's not perfect but it's better.
    Dungeon maps....really? That's an "issue" for you? What does this addition to the game do to prevent you from enjoying it? No really I'd love to know.
    Complaining about LFR, apart from being new and exciting, it's for people who can't / don't raid, it's the starter raid that isn't big or scary to get you used to things.

    Do you stand outside Early Learning Centres and call the parents who buy there kids the 4 piece puzzles dumb because you personally can do the 5,000 piece?

    That's exactly what it is, a start, a simply start so you're not just dropped into a raid where you need to get things 100% right...or even 80% right.

    Do you get to see content, yes, but does it really count? Do you think doing something the easiest way possible is something to shout about?

    You claim you want a challenge then complain about LFR, it makes no sense.

    Do you hear Premiership footballers complaining that the lowest division in the football league gets a trophy at the end of the seasons? No because they understand leagues, and levels of difficulty.

    Only an idiot would wave their Conference National winners medal at someone who's won the Premiership pretending that they were in anyway equal!

    Anyone that tries to compare finishing a boss on LFR to finishing that same boss on normal after you've worked at getting it right for a couple of weeks is delusional.

    This is just another "things were better before" thread by someone who feels everything about the game should be geared towards them, and just them.

    Do what you enjoy and don't worry about everyone else and you'll be much happier.
    Last edited by Mooboy; 2013-06-24 at 02:07 PM.
    "The fact that you don't get it or like it is fine. The fact that you wanna ruin it for everyone else - that's why you're a cocksucker." - Bill Hicks
    Quote Originally Posted by Darsithis View Post
    The playerbase has been desiring this for years and when it's finally here, everyone wants to grab a pitchfork. Ridiculous. This community is disgustingly toxic.
    Please send all PM's with a read receipt, that way both you and I will know I'm not reading them....

  4. #24
    Mechagnome Joeygiggles's Avatar
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    I wouldn't call removing the need to go to a class trainer to learn a spell dumbing the game down. .. its just removing the middle man.

  5. #25
    The Unstoppable Force N-aix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tyrindor View Post
    OP please link your 13/13H character, else your entire argument is void.
    Hahaha that's just mean and you know it :P but yes OP let me dissect your armory and see how truly good you are.

  6. #26
    The Insane Wildtree's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by swagster View Post
    Strangely enough every new expansion WoW is simpler, dumbed down, etc.
    This is not strange, this is a logic consequence..
    If WoW's simplicity would not have changed at all. Millions of players who started late would now slowly catch up with the ones who started playing in Vanilla.

    The leveling process alone would take almost a year...
    Let's say it took you three month to get your toon from 1 - 60 and competitive raid ready in Vanilla. And with no changes made, already for TBC..
    That would mean, you'd have to spend the same time again for the next max level voyage. Or let's cut it down to 1 month instead of another 3...

    Vanilla 3
    TBC 1
    WotLK 1
    Cata 1
    MoP 1
    That makes 7 month to get a new toon from creation to competitive raiding capability, for someone who bought the game just now.
    How many people would buy a game where they would have to face a progression curve that long, until they are actually able to enjoy the endgame top content? And how many guilds would still be able to keep their rosters filled, with so few people unable to catch up quick. Mind you, that curve would also always apply to every new alt someone would make, just to help their guild with something they lack and cannot recruit.

    WoW doesn't get simpler because of catering to casuals or what not. It gets simpler to catch up fast enough to have a maximum of population at the endgame level.
    "The pen is mightier than the sword.. and considerably easier to write with."

  7. #27
    I find it hilarious that whenever a topic like this pops up someone or multiple people will bring up <insert boss kill>.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Darsithis View Post
    World of Warcraft has always been the easiest MMO, and that is what it was sold on. If you ever played Everquest or even earlier MMO's you would realize that WoW was decried in the beginning as too casual. When TBC launched, it coined the phrase "welfare epics".

    The game isn't dumbed down but it's simply made accessible to everyone regardless of skill level. There is still challenge to be found - at end game, where it's supposed to be. Leveling the first time, when you know nothing at all, is fun, but no one wants extreme challenge for their 9th or 10th character at that point. You can find plenty of challenging content in heroic raids, heroic scenarios, & challenge modes. People who like to coast along will enjoy regular heroics, scenarios, and LFR.

    In essence? What you want isn't necessarily what everyone else wants, but WoW does its best to cater to both.
    This. I remember playing FFXI and losing xp when you died. and when you leveled, went go go look for what new skills you could learn and get ganked by a mob or two on your way home and finding yourself leveled down, you'd scream in annoyance.
    Raining Pandarens because of the bouncy racial?
    Quote Originally Posted by rokatoro View Post
    Some Might say it was... (•_•).....( •_•)>⌐■-■....(⌐■_■) A heavy Rain.
    I'm so sorry ;_;

  9. #29
    The Lightbringer Tekkommo's Avatar
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    People who make posts like these should at least link their armoury if they want to be taken seriously.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Apathy - View Post
    I got it let me sum it up!

    - Luci - > Impending Doom - cure curse - Mind control adds - > Kill adds kill boss cure curse heal YAYYYYYY
    - Magmadar - > Enrage - > Must use tranq shot to cure Enrage - > Pref by two hunters - > Tank must use fear break abilities from time to time or use fear ward via ally
    - Ghehenas - > cure curse - > Run from rain of fire - > Kill adds - > Kill boss
    - Garr - > Set marks for each add - > Set tanks for each add - > Begin via Ice block mage or divine protection pally - > Kill a few adds - > Kill boss - > Don't kill all adds
    - Shazrah - > Go in a circle - > Cure curses - > One tank
    ~~ Set notes np Decursive press 1 button and everything is cleansed ~~
    - Baron Geddon ~ Living bomb move from people - > Cleanse magic burning mana thing - > Move from Hellfire thing - > Kill boss
    - Harbinger ~ Set tanks for each of the adds ~ Use MS effects via each add ~ Split each add so they don't heal ~ Kill all adds ~ Kill boss
    - Golemag ~ Set tanks via the two adds ~ Kill boss ~ Use as many as cool downs when earthquake happens ~
    - Executus ~ CC Healing adds ~ Set each tank for each add ~ Set 1 tank to tank Executus ~ Kill adds then healers ~ Loot
    - Ragnaros ~ Tank swap ~ Add phase kill adds ~ Repeat ~ Kill boss

    Did I miss something :O
    On gollemag did you have a debuff that required some people to move away from him or not damage him for a bit as well?
    Domo watch for the damage reflection shit too! or w/e it was!
    Rag - watch out for the aoe knock back! put on fire res gear!

    pretty much bang on tho! :P

  11. #31
    Streamlined/Qualty of Life =/= Dumbed Down.

    The gameplay mechanics are more complicated and unforgiving as ever. Classes require knowledge to use correctly, and certain classes aren't dominating so much that other classes are deemed 'worthless' (remember when just the auto-attack from Rogues and Shadowbolt spamming from Warlocks alone would outstrip nearly everyone else? /shudder), and bosses that seem to have more mechanics all by themselves then some older raids combined?

    You even see quest mobs doing abilities other then auto-attack (crazy, I know!) or one basic spell that does next to no damage.

    I see no dumbing down, I only see a game that's more fun to play and less of a chore/punishment for not picking the 'right class'.

  12. #32
    FFS, quit whining about the talent trees. They were NEVER difficult. Almost everyone, even the hybrid people, had a similar setup with their talents (especially with the rise of sites like wowhead, icy-veins, mmo-c, etc.) Nowadays we at least have different plausible options: "hm, do I want better mobility, better defense, or better offense? Better heals or a better stun? Better interrupt or a better absorb shield?" as opposed to: "Hm, do I want +2 expertise with swords or do I want +2 hit with axes? And do I want to pay 60+ gold just to completely reset my whole tree if I get a better weapon for 2 weeks? Decisions. Decisions."

    You want difficulty? Go make difficulty! Go get that 12/12 hard mode and each annoying "kill the boss in a special, frustrating way" achievement. Go kill your special heroic-only exclusive boss. Go play on a private server and enjoy the good old days of nonsense gear with random stats. Go play some war games or rated bg's, or arenas, or random bg's and become the top pvp'er of your realm with full Tyrannical gear. Go get exalt with every plausible faction in the slowest way imaginable (like collecting a super-ultra-mega-rare item for 150 extra rep or kill this one specific raid boss for 100 rep once a week!), just like the good old days!

    I care how a dungeon is setup and the boss's quotes, specific actions, and special locations the first time I do them. After a thousand times, it becomes a waste of time, thus money, thus fun. I don't want a boss scavenger hunt and lore fest to take away from my fun. I do not ever want to see another BRD or WC dungeon in any future expansion. I don't want to have to spend 5 minutes clearing a ton of trash in a room to kill a single ability-less boss because if I pull him too soon the whole entire instance will jump us.

    Also, spell tooltips that glow at X time during a proc, dungeon loot charts, dungeon maps with specific boss locations, specific quest item locations have been in the forms of addons for years. Has that "challenge" ever really been there?

    The supposed difficulty is still there. If you or your friends or guildmates or server are too lazy to actually achieve that level of difficulty then perhaps it's time for you to move on to something with a community that wants to that. Good luck.
    Last edited by Redlokyldoreifanggore; 2013-06-24 at 02:11 PM.
    "If I didn't have bad luck I'd have no luck at all."

  13. #33
    Money. 10chars

  14. #34
    Herald of the Titans Geminiwolf's Avatar
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    I think it makes the game more enjoyable for people. Like what you said about new spells being magically delivered to you. It makes the game less stressful, at least I think so. Back then it was annoying as fuck to get new spells. You had to constantly fly to a trainer, pay gold, then go back to questing. I thought that was a big inconvenience and really annoying, especially at high levels when the spells would cost like 20g and you couldn't learn a spell because you didn't have enough gold so you had to go out again to make some so you could get that spell. Also making gold back then wasn't nearly as easy as it is today so it was a hassle. I don't look at it as dumbing down the game I think it's more of making it more convenient for people resulting in the game being more enjoyable. Nobody wants to play a game and feel like they're at a second job.
    “Ever wonder why ice cubes taste so boring? It’s cuz you make ‘em outta stupid water, you bimbo! Put some fruit juice in there and freeze it into ice cubes, and put THAT in your milk.”
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  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by swagster View Post
    Dungeons. Why must they show us where each and ever boss is? Heck, even the introduction to instance maps annoyed me a bit. Part of the fun of dungeons was running it a few times before coming across a boss you hadn't seen before, because it's off to the side and new players wouldn't normally know of it. Now we have "Go here for this boss, and this one, and this one, and this one. And don't worry, they're incredibly easy. In a few levels you could probably solo it."
    While I do agree with you on this point however, I wouldn't want something as big as Blackrock depths or wailing caverns(I hated that place) that you just around for hours not knowing where you'll end up without a final boss but more of something like zul'farrak.

    For your other points, I do miss the days where you just waited to get that new awesome spell or try to kill high level (hard) mobs for an awesome quest which had good gear but thing is, you're missing the point. I mean I just went on a WotLK private server to relive such memories but it just doesnt feel the same. If you were to start wow from scratch right now you'd feel this game is epic however over time, knowing what to do, you would start to find it boring slowly. That's all just nostalgia we want to relive which wont happen again. But I guess your right it DOES feel dumbed down ever since late cata it became more.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Redlokyldoreifanggore View Post
    I do not ever want to see another BRD or WC dungeon in any future expansion.
    You know, I do miss dungeons like BRDs. They actually felt like real places and not just some decorated corridor.

    What it needed was better "signalling" to orientate the players and maps (even 3D maps; Why not? WoW is a 3D game!).

  17. #37
    WoW was dumbed down so OP could also get achievements.
    Quote Originally Posted by vep View Post
    Are you really looking for logic in a game that sends you dragons via the mail service?...

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by swagster View Post
    Strangely enough every new expansion WoW is simpler, dumbed down, etc.
    I kinda disagree. A lot of WoW feels "smarted up", actually. It's mainly that a lot of timesinks have been removed, in my opinion.

    Quote Originally Posted by swagster View Post
    A need for class trainers is gone, because now one is magically gifted by a powerful God of some sort with new abilities. There's no more joy of eagerly awaiting that spell you see in the list several levels ahead.
    What was difficult, challenging or skillful about visiting the trainer every other level? You just needed to hearth to your town and talk to them. Big deal. Also, you still get to see what skills will become available at a given level.

    Quote Originally Posted by swagster View Post
    The mobs are pathetic, and the classes are overpowered in PvE. A low level character could easily take on 5 or 6 mobs before seeing any sign of difficulty in fighting them. What ever happened to having to be careful, actually working to complete a quest or dungeon? You simply AOE them down now.
    I partially agree here, but the issue with old WoW was that the learning curve was backwards. Starting out, most characters were more difficult to survive and make progress with than they were on a higher level. That's the exact opposite of how a game's difficulty curve should be. As such, it makes sense that you go through easy peasy stuff while leveling.

    Quote Originally Posted by swagster View Post
    Spell tooltips showing you when to use your spells, how to use them and in what kind of scenario.
    Okay, so there's an in-game source for that. Players don't have to look for guides here, on the official forums or Elitist Jerks. Yeah, not having to alt-tab really makes a big difference, right?

    Quote Originally Posted by swagster View Post
    Talent trees. Seriously, what is this? I feel like I am in a game for 6 year olds when I look at this. Could they have dumbed it down anymore? I feel like the next step is merely choosing what spec you want, and I expect that change to happen in a few months time.
    The more I play with the new system, the more I like it. Why? Well, because most of the old talents were either useless or mandatory. You picked your spec just as much as you did now, maybe some points placed different here and there. Aside from these, most players rarely deviated from the usual "31/15/5" or whatever the corresponding "correct" spec was. I feel that there's much more freedom to actually chose talants to your taste now.

    Quote Originally Posted by swagster View Post
    Dungeons. Why must they show us where each and ever boss is? Heck, even the introduction to instance maps annoyed me a bit. Part of the fun of dungeons was running it a few times before coming across a boss you hadn't seen before, because it's off to the side and new players wouldn't normally know of it. Now we have "Go here for this boss, and this one, and this one, and this one. And don't worry, they're incredibly easy. In a few levels you could probably solo it."
    I guess you never noticed that Atlas was a widely popular addon. It even existed since Vanilla. Obviously, people wanted that sort of map so bad that someone even sat down and programmed an addon to provide such a feature. It seems only natural that Blizzard somewhen came around to offering these dungeon maps themselves.

    Quote Originally Posted by swagster View Post
    Raids. The LFR is a great example of this, instant gratification with absolutely no commitment required. No preparation required, no need to know what the bosses do, no nothing. Just go in, spam 3-4 buttons and you're done.
    Because "commitment" is something that should be required to play a game? I'm commited to my job, my friends and family, maybe some other hobbies that I consider more important. Having to "commit" to a game isn't something I'm eager to do - and a lot of others as well, as it would seem. I might have been commited to WoW back in Vanilla, when I was still in school and had nothing better to do. Nowadays, I'd have to fit WoW into a much more filled schedule and work around a few more time constraints. And since WoW has always been quite the casual MMO, you'd expect it to adapt to the fact that a lot of the initial audience has, by now, grown up and thereby out of a lifestyle oldschool WoW fitted into.

    Quote Originally Posted by swagster View Post
    Blizzard is trying to make the game appeal to a younger audience to get the new generation interested in the game. And that's a completely fair goal. However, doing it how they are isn't the right way to go about it. They're making this game boring and disappointing to those of a mediocre intelligence level, and underestimating those of the new generation. They're more intelligent than many will give them credit for, and they do not need this level of simplification of it.
    I doubt that age is actually a part of it. Or even the intention to make the game "dumber". In fact, I'd say that WoW, as far as mechanics of various encounters is concerned, became more complex than it was during its first few years. What made instances like Molten Core seem so difficult was the fact that you had to invest much more time to pass the gear check it posed. Farming fire resist gear and the mats for fire resist potions wasn't difficult, it jsut required so much time that few were "commited" enough to the game to actually go and do that.

    Quote Originally Posted by swagster View Post
    In the end they are losing the quality players. The ones that can make it an amazing community, the ones who do not need their parents money to afford the game. The ones who I love to find in a guild and spend hours and hours playing with.
    Is that so? From what I've experienced, the people that complain the most about the direction WoW has been taken are wannabe-progamers who wouldn't ever cut it in games like Dota, StarCraft, most shooters or whatever have you that is currently part of major e-sport leagues. Not enough skill to make it somewhere else, but they had a lot of time on their hands, so WoW PvE was perfect for them to feel big and powerful. Sucks when they can't be special anymore just because of that, I reckon.

    There, that paragraph was probably just as ridden with prejudice as the paragraph it answers.

    Quote Originally Posted by swagster View Post
    I want a challenge, I want to have to think, I want that excitement back. Because soon i'll feel like i'm playing Farmville, with dragons.
    If that's the case, I have to ask: Why did you ever play WoW's PvE part?

    Quote Originally Posted by swagster View Post
    Is this something that was asked for? Quality of life went too far? Did a group of mentally challenged people petition Blizzard and say "This game is so difficult, I don't know how or when to use my spells and skills.... can you hold my hand?"

    Or did Blizzard, in their infinite wisdom, think that dumbing down this game to such a level that there is no learning process now is a good idea?

    The game today feels as though every cheat possible has been turned on.
    If you think about how players looked these fact up in guides and addons, the answer would obviously be "yes". Playeres aren't "leet" for knowing to type "wow warrior rotation" into Google.


    Quote Originally Posted by swagster View Post
    Warriors and Warlocks are vastly different to the one I rolled all those years ago.
    That's the first bit of your post I actually agree with.

    Quote Originally Posted by swagster View Post
    WoW feels like a game with GODMODE enabled. that is hardly compelling or enticing. "The worlds BEST MMORPG" has turned into "The worlds EASIEST and most accommodating MMORPG". That is NOT how you retain subs. The game has lost millions of subs and now they're relying on people loving the "fresh car smell" of WoW, which will definitely fade with time. Basically they've decided to aim for short term profits. that's it. Works well now, but if the game every does collapse, i assert that the kernels of that failure are being planted now.
    WoW's been going strong for close to a decade, what more can you ask of any given game? Even if it broke down now, you couldn't ever call it a failure. Especially since the competition's growing on a monthly basis (or so it seems). I, for one, am quite certain that WoW would be dead and burried by now if it hadn't drastically changed since the days of Vanilla and The Burning Crusade. Neither of these would stand a chance if released onto the current market, even if they were as well known as they were back then.

    I'd seriously recommend that everyone who thinks that WoW has been "dumbed down" and "dragged down from its peak" should play Vanilla or maybe TBC on a private server. It won't take long for the nostalgia to fade away - which is why people hold the "oldschool" WoW in such high regard. But such is the way of the human mind: Remembering the joyful and ignoring the painful. All I can say is, I've been saying the same as the OP, basically, until I did that. I was always promoting that WoW was at its best during Vanilla and TBC, until I actually sat down and played the game - only to realise that it was just riddled with insane time sinks and didn't require much actual skill at all.

  19. #39
    The Insane det's Avatar
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    Well, well...there certainly are a few posters who know how to start pretty flamewars with their threads.

    WoW isn't the only MMO on the market. If it is too much dumbed down, yet you cannot leave it behind and continue to pay...what does that say about you. If you HAVE quit - fine. Enjoy your new life in the knowledge that us idiots are still bending over for Blizzard. ^^
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    One cause is a cognitive bias called projection bias. Essentially living inside your own head your entire life makes it exceedingly difficult to understand how others do not also live your same life, think your same thoughts, and hold your same beliefs. In many cases it's quite frustrating to try to empathize and understand why you yourself may not be the center of the universe, which generally results in one 'acting out' in various ways.
    So, in short: the internet.

  20. #40
    Look at the actual numbers clearing heroic modes, and then come back and tell us that the game is "easy mode".
    That number is a very small portion of the raiding community, a number a vocal minority want to make us think is a lot bigger.

    The accessibility in what is despite some belief, a game with a pretty steep learning curve is what will feed your recruitment should you actually get over your own ego long enough to talk to people, to help them get out of LFR and into your guild.

    WoW is about 10 years old now, so really cannot be compared to any recent MMO, and is still proving more successful with numbers than many "wow killers" even those with a F2P model.

    The game is old, it has an excessively vocal and toxic portion of its community which is really hostile to anyone new, and it unlike most of the competition has a subscription model.
    There are simply way too many factors now to simply say that one dislike of yours is the reason why the numbers are dropping.

    I would argue that the community is a bigger part of it than many would like to think, or admit to.
    Last edited by ComputerNerd; 2013-06-24 at 02:23 PM.

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