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  1. #481
    Classic was cool in its own way and i enjoyed most of it, but speaking frankly, most of us "Classic Players" wearing Pink Goggles when it comes to reminiscing these old times. Raiding wasn't really challenging ( a few exceptions exist in every add on and Tier ), it was a huge time sink where the whole Raid had to support a few Key-Classes and / or get massive amounts of Magic Resilience Gear for a couple of Bosses to progress further. Once you learned the mechanics and knew what and when to do it was almost done.

    It was "smaller", the roles of mostly every Class were well defined ( except a few raids like mine ) and it was more unforgiving. Not because it was harder, because the mechanics weren't made so well like today. You playing a Druid, then Heal. You want to play Kitty?, good joke but if you want to see Ragnaros then specc Resto and Heal. Unless you were in a Raid like mine were the benefits of a few uncommon speccs were acknowledged you had to go with a specc / Role your Raidlead defined if you wanted epic gear.

    Remember Cthun or Thaddius ? When a ping of 300 from one player could cause a wipe ? Latency check before the Pull ? Huhuran ? Well Fire Mages, hop thru your Portals, get to the Trainer and specc Frost, after Huhuran the same game and specc Fire again. Run every week the same T1 / T2 raids again because rng. fucked your MT and that damn Shield / Trinket / Whatever did not drop in 30 cleared Lockouts ? In Naxxramas most of our Healers were running in AQ40 / Rank13 Damage Gear because we had really bad drop luck when it came to Healing Gear but our dps had 3rd equip for different enchants. I remember a Friend of mine who played Rogue and ran AQ40 in 4pc T0,5 and 4pc T1 because in his raid Rogue Tier drops were only a legend.

    The only thing i recall a lot better was the community, and that's the biggest Point when it comes to all of these "Classic was so much better" Threads. It was all Server intern and reputation was almost everything. Players behaving like a idiot happened from time to time, but it made the round really quick and almost everyone avoided these players afterwards. Ninjalooting a Blue drop like the Baron Cape caused more then one player to lose their raid spot. Different T1 / T2 Raids supported one or two Raidgroups that were in AQ40 or Naxxramas with Materials so they could progress further; all for the sake of a Server / Battlegroup / Europe First or the prestige of a Legendary.

    mfg, Rehija Whitefeather

  2. #482
    Quote Originally Posted by Chrysia View Post
    How the fuck is the entire game undermined by allowing a catch-up mechanism and alternate path of progression for those that can't commit to a raid schedule?
    By destroying the sense of achievement one gets from doing exclusive content and the community that is built around it to accomplish that. Takes the MMO out of MMORPG

    What we have now is just an on rails single player game where everyone wins just for participating and it has totally ruined wow

    I mean there's a thousand other games that are exactly that; why did they have to make WoW like that

    Changes towards this end pretty closely coincide with the drop in subs too
    Last edited by Sniperpally; 2013-06-26 at 02:46 AM.

  3. #483
    Quote Originally Posted by Sniperpally View Post
    By destroying the sense of achievement one gets from doing exclusive content and the community that is built around it to accomplish that. Takes the MMO out of MMORPG

    What we have now is just an on rails single player game where everyone wins just for participating and it has totally ruined wow

    I mean there's a thousand other games that are exactly that; why did they have to make WoW like that

    Changes towards this end pretty closely coincide with the drop in subs too
    Actually, the second biggest drop in subs coincides with the period of most difficult 5-man content in a while.

    And exclusive content still exists. It's called heroic raids.

    3DS Friend Code: 0146-9205-4817. Could show as either Chris or Chrysia.

  4. #484
    Quote Originally Posted by Chrysia View Post
    Actually, the second biggest drop in subs coincides with the period of most difficult 5-man content in a while.

    And exclusive content still exists. It's called heroic raids.
    If by heroic raids you mean Ra-Den. Also Cata was terrible for its own reasons, but one of its shining moments was the enhanced difficulty of its release heroics.

  5. #485
    Cata t11 raids and heroics were in my eyes one of the best pve moment of wow's history. It was incredibly good.

    But yeah. It got destroyed by noobs tears.

  6. #486
    Quote Originally Posted by kamran View Post
    Cata t11 raids and heroics were in my eyes one of the best pve moment of wow's history. It was incredibly good.

    But yeah. It got destroyed by noobs tears.
    Yup I loved blackwing descent and BoT when it was new. I had to quit the game because I was in the Army after clearing those raids and didn't come back till after Dragon Soul. Was pretty disappointed in the 180 the game took. Ironically because of the demands on my time at that point I should have been really into all the convenience of the new system but it just made everything feel incredibly bland and not worth the effort. Which is why I imagine raiding has shriveled up and died since then and WoWs sub numbers along with it
    Last edited by Sniperpally; 2013-06-26 at 03:18 AM.

  7. #487
    Quote Originally Posted by kamran View Post
    Cata t11 raids and heroics were in my eyes one of the best pve moment of wow's history. It was incredibly good.

    But yeah. It got destroyed by noobs tears.
    I liked it as well, since I was in a guild at the time, but the heroics were not tuned with LFD in mind. Random groups got destroyed.

    3DS Friend Code: 0146-9205-4817. Could show as either Chris or Chrysia.

  8. #488
    Quote Originally Posted by Whitepaw View Post
    WoW is more complex than ever. The game has more abilities, more content, more competition and a greater range of difficulty than ever before.

    The people who often complain the most about WoW being 'dumbed down' are the people who were able to access ressources like thottbot, elitist jerks forum etc. The knowledge of and ability to use those third-party ressources were often what separated the player with knowledge of the game from the ones without that knowledge. The latter were called 'Newbies".

    So, you would go to the EJ forums to read up on your class and to thottbot for help with quests, items etc. Now most of this knowledge is either in the game client or easily deductible from reading tooltips on abilities and talents.

    At the same time, the number of abilities available for each spec has grown a lot - and we have more classes and races than ever before. There are 34 specs, all of which are able to access all the talents for their class. On top of that, we have 11 races with different racial abilities. Back in Vanilla, you could have maybe 5-6 different ways to spec your druid - now, you have 4 different specwith 6 talents, which are independent of the choice of spec.

    So lets say you meet a druid at lvl 15. He can be 1 of 4 different specs, and have chosen 1 of the 3 talents at the first talent tier. That's 12 different combinations already. At lvl 30, you have 36 different combinations (and I'm not even calculating the glyphs here!). In a BG at lvl 30, you will have 10 classes with 27 different combinations and 1 class with 36 combinations. That's over 300 different combinations - at lvl 30. Back in Vanilla, you would have had 8 classes, each with access to 3 different specs. Now, each of these classes would have chosen their specs by placing their 21 talent points somewhere in their talent trees - and hey! that seems like a lot of choice and complexity, right? Wrong, because the system was balanced, even back then. Also, you had to choose a lot of passive talent points to make your baseline abilities useful. So, for a druid at lvl 30, there were 3 different specs, with a few outliers. Lets say 10 different combinations at lvl 30. Today, we have at least 3 times as many combinations - and that's just at lvl 30.

    Today, when you queue a BG at lvl 90, you can choose between 13 different BGs. Your team mates can be any of the thousands of combinations available - and so can the opposing team. On top of that, you have added layers of complexity from glyphs and even one of the professions (engineering). The same pattern for PvE. The boss fights are a lot more complex than back in Vanilla - and the disabling of certain mod functions available back in Vanilla (fx Decursive) adds more compexity as well.

    Add to the above the fact that all classes have more abilities available than ever before. Blizzard even removed a lot of never-used abilities in MoP, so now you actually have abilities that you use - and so you need to place them on your bars and find keybindings for them! I am way past 40 keybindings to play my Feral druid. Blizzard has also made actual tanking, damaging and healing rotations - and these typically have single-target or AoE variations. In Vanilla, you had 1 ability to do AoE - if you had one (a lot of melee specs didn't). Now, you typically use 2 different abilities, or spread dots or do some other, rather complex rotation to maximise AoE. It's the same with single-target - there is a rotation, loads of factors that can change your rotation and cooldowns/trinkets that you can weave in as well.

    If anything, WoW has grown in complexity and variation. Back in Vanilla, you could do some small-scale PvE (5 man dungeon runs), large-scale PvE (raids), PvP or you could grind mats. Now, there are so many options that I hesitate to even start mentioning them - I will forget some of them, because I probably never really tried them.

    I do miss a few things:
    - Moving around in the world should be more dangerous (yes, that includes leveling). There should be danger when trying to kill mobs to complete quests. Now, its way too easy (until you reach lvl 85 - but even then its still fairly easy).
    - Heroic instances are way too easy. I know, there are challenge modes - but it still breaks immersion when the HEROIC instances are so easy as they are. I enjoyed Cataclysm/TBC Heroics as well as BRD (doing BRD with all quests and attunement for MC could take a whole Sunday in Vanilla).
    - I would like for attunements to return. They wouldn't have to be as difficult as TBC attunements for entering tier 5 and 6 instances, but forcing players to be social in an MMORPG should be ok and expected. I really enjoyed the Onyxia quest chain (Alliance) and the attunement for UBRS back in Vanilla. Those quests and fights were quite epic and memorable. There are a few of these today, but most of the more epic fights can be solo'd, with some kind of helping mechanic.
    Great post. A shame people won't read it. They'll simply let their ignorance show in opinions labeled as fact and ignore any objective disagreement that makes more sense than their reply.

    Then blame others for the change in community.

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-26 at 01:55 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Garian View Post
    People have answered this question many times before but for some reason you refuse to listen.

    It's impossible to do something when no one else wants to do it.
    The people who don't want to do it don't want to because they can't. It's too challenging. So they make a thread full of excuses and blame the content. It's the same story IRL too. Hence the expression "the grass is always greener on the other side". It's what separates successful players (people) from achieving or failing.

    It's easy to blame the content but difficult to grow and become a better player. People will always do what's easier.
    Last edited by Crookids; 2013-06-26 at 05:57 AM.
    Static - US Arthas | Currently 13/13 HM | Art by ElyPop

  9. #489

    Vanilla wasn't the best, honestly

    Quote Originally Posted by Crookids View Post
    Great post. A shame people won't read it. They'll simply let their ignorance show in opinions labeled as fact and ignore any objective disagreement that makes more sense than their reply.
    I read it and found some flaws within the argument, but mostly to show how many "choices" we really had in vanilla.

    As a Druid, if I wanted to raid, I had a choice of two different specs - Feral and Resto. You also had to be a special snowflake for guilds to pick you up as a Feral. (And the only reason you were brought along was for innervate and rebirth).

    As a Paladin, forget about tanking or dpsing. You were in raids to cast buffs and throw out the occasional heal if you had the mana/time. If you were a special snowflake, you also got the opportunity to judge a boss - so people could wand for mana. (Ditto for Shamans, except you dropped totems instead of buffs - and you were there to rez everybody on a wipe).

    As a Priest, you were Holy. Sorry, tough luck.

    As a Warrior, you were tanking. You might go Fury if they were confident in running with only 4 tanks.

    As a Warlock, you had the special role of casting Shadowbolt until your "1" key broke. Maybe you pushed "2" for a curse once in a while.

    Rogues were awesome - they had choices in their specs... but since most servers were overloaded on rogues, good luck on a raid spot. (Ditto for hunters, except you were MM, period. BM did squat for damage and everybody thought Survival was a melee spec).

    ------

    Honestly, I would hate to play classic WoW again. Raiding was simplistic due to archaic class design - as it had to be - to support a huge chunk of the raid doing the exact same thing for 10 minutes until a boss died.

  10. #490
    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Jensen View Post
    While I agree with much of your post, I don't see what the problem with this is. I for one liked being able to figure out, from tooltips, how class abilities intermingled.

    But for the most part, the reason that it was dumbed down is part of why I left. Dungeons have no danger to them. AT ALL. Walk in, sneeze, boss is dead. I understand heroics are suppose to be easy, I get that. But these take almost zero effort to complete. There's no danger in questing, even quest bosses are easy to solo. No danger in anything but raiding and PvP. LFR is just a zerg rush.
    Try leveling with no heirlooms and mop rares are dangerous. Most have 1 shot mechanics as well. Challenge modes replaced heroics and LFR is a joke but its for people who don't have the time to raid. If you find LFR easy raid normal modes. You haven't even done half of what the game offer and yet you still say it's easy.

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-26 at 07:22 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Sniperpally View Post
    By destroying the sense of achievement one gets from doing exclusive content and the community that is built around it to accomplish that. Takes the MMO out of MMORPG

    What we have now is just an on rails single player game where everyone wins just for participating and it has totally ruined wow

    I mean there's a thousand other games that are exactly that; why did they have to make WoW like that

    Changes towards this end pretty closely coincide with the drop in subs too
    Lfr isn't beating the game and getting a full set of epic pvp gear isn't beating the game. Completing throne of thunder on heroic and achieving gladiator still mean something. Their still is exclusive content mounts, titles, achievements and a special boss.
    You're right except for 2 things.

    1. My name is spelt "God" not "Loucious-sama".
    2. I'm not a man, because man is inherently flawed. I am in fact a being so far beyond your comprehension that archaic constraints like flesh, blood, time and consequently, gender, have no meaning to me.

  11. #491
    Quote Originally Posted by Mooboy View Post
    You say "dumbed down" I say "accessible" and there's nothing wrong with that.
    I say both because I am realistic. You keep fooling yourself.

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-26 at 02:02 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Whitepaw View Post
    WoW is more complex than ever. The game has more abilities, more content, more competition and a greater range of difficulty than ever before.
    Complexity doesn't matter at all when you can ignore all those mechanics and abilities when doing the content. It's still dumbed down, simplified or whatever you want to call it.
    Last edited by Gilian; 2013-06-26 at 02:03 PM.

  12. #492
    Warchief Packers01's Avatar
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    Wow is so easy only 336 guilds have killed Ra-Den, 402 Lei Shen. Less then 1.4%. Six other heroic fights are under 7%.

  13. #493
    Quote Originally Posted by lakers01 View Post
    Wow is so easy only 336 guilds have killed Ra-Den, 402 Lei Shen. Less then 1.4%. Six other heroic fights are under 7%.
    Dumbed down =/= easy. Heroic raids are only a small part of the game. But I guess it doesn't matter how many times someone says that, we really can't fool you.

  14. #494
    Elemental Lord Baar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilian View Post
    Dumbed down =/= easy. Heroic raids are only a small part of the game. But I guess it doesn't matter how many times someone says that, we really can't fool you.

    Quality of life changes =/= dumbed down.

    The only dumb thing is that they were in the game in the first place.

  15. #495
    Quote Originally Posted by kamran View Post
    Cata t11 raids and heroics were in my eyes one of the best pve moment of wow's history. It was incredibly good.

    But yeah. It got destroyed by noobs tears.
    Sunwell hands down.. Muru pre nerf = one of the hardest fights ever.

  16. #496
    more casuals = more money

  17. #497
    It was dumbed down because the demographic of PC gamers has changed. We're not geeks any more, we're just people with a computer ;D Your general facebook app user would have a nightmare if they had to replenish mana after every pull and had to choose between multiple stats and gearing options.

    Sometimes it's nice to have quality of life, but there are consequences. For example, the game now totally revolves around filling a priority gcd system now that mana is gone. Mana was a spell balance tool in itself, sad to see it's not used any more.

    The removal of talent trees also lead to class uniformity. I don't really care about the 'more choice' debate, when i'm using living bomb on a frost mage something is off. The best thing about the talent trees (vanilla - wotlk) was that you could experiment crossing to other trees. For example Warlocks in BC had about 5 competitive builds to choose between (until blizzard stopped giving gearing options and put haste on all the gear).

  18. #498
    Field Marshal Blue Thunder's Avatar
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    "Oh, but WoW Classic was so good!!!"

    Even if I "enjoyed" Classic and TBC, the game was giving TOO MUCH restriction to many players.

    Oh! You wanna raid Onyxia? Well you need another 39 people who had also complete the attunement quest, and if you're alliance GET SOME FUCKING DWARF PRIESTS WOULD YA!!!
    Oh, you're a paladin and want to go all holy warrior with a 2handed weapon? FUCK YOU, YOUR DAMAGE AIN'T WORTH A SHIT!!!
    Oh look! This warrior wants to DPS!!! FUUUUUCK YOUUU!!! YOU'RE THE ONLY CLASS WHO CAN TANK SO GET YOUR FUCKING SHIELD AND TANK!!!
    Hey look!!! This Fire Mage wants to go to Molten Core!!! GET YOUR ASS BACK TO THE TRAINER AND GO FROST, DUMMY!!! AND ONCE WE ARE DONE WITH IT GO BACK TO FIRE, BECAUSE WE NEED THAT DPS FOR AQ!!!
    And let's not forget all those LOVELY hunters who pressed NEED on EVERY SINGLE MELEE WEAPON THEY FOUND!!!!

    WoW right now is as best as it can be. Every class can DPS, tank or heal without the previous mentioned discriminations. The CHALLENGE is still there for those who want to do Challenge modes and heroic raids. And the boss fights itself require actual mechanics than just fucking dispelling a debuff on the TANK!!!
    Sig by Elyssia

  19. #499
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    If you just look at number of spells available to each class, the classes/rotations are more complex than ever.

    If anything, I'd prefer a general reduction to total number of spells to only include what is useful. Don't love having 30+ abilities hotkeyed. I know pruning abilities would likely cause more harm than good at this point, but just my opinion.

  20. #500
    It's been simplified because over 8 years, every small nuisance was complained about by some minority that was loud enough to get everyone nodding their heads in agreement.

    If you haven't played for the course of the game, you have no legit opinion on the matter. You haven't see the changes, you can't accurately evaluate the topic.


    And we aren't talking "man things are so much harder in XYZ raid now than before", difficulty of the raids is not the same as the overall feel of the game. Name one thing that inconveniences you today? The only things that are time sinks were the daily quests, but no one thinks those were ever integral to the game, myself included. Everything else in this game is made to suit the players, to require low time investment, and provide maximum rewards.

    Everything is instant, everything is nice and smooth, everything is evolved to make you smile and relax.



    There's a reason people love crazy games like Skyrim or Fallout. The intangible minute details, that make a game feel like a game, and not a chore.

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