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  1. #561
    Warchief Seefer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    It was and is today INCREDIBLE cliquish. It was far worse in BC and Vanilla where you were basically at the behest of some raging asshole who ran the guild and his chosen cadre of officers.
    I am of the firm belief that you never even played back then and are basing your wild ass assumptions on the Onyxia MOAR DOTS video to justify your anti-social behavior or just being bad so nobody wants to play with you.

  2. #562
    Over 9000! Baar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seefer View Post
    I am of the firm belief that you never even played back then and are basing your wild ass assumptions on the Onyxia MOAR DOTS video to justify your anti-social behavior or just being bad so nobody wants to play with you.
    I am of the firm belief you didn't start mid expansion where you DID have to go through people like this to find a decent guild.

    Good guilds won't take the average Joe that just joined. He needs to get experience before they let him join.

  3. #563
    Warchief Seefer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Durandro View Post
    Examples, please. Just saying 'it is' isn't acceptable.

    Explain in detail how boss mechanics are more easy nowadays. Also please explain how reputation grinds are easier. Also explain how easy it is to gear up to run the last tier of raids via pure dungeon grinding (protip: MoP is the first expansion where this isn't possible).

    Nostalgia is a funny thing.
    Boss Mechanics - They now put a circle on the ground where bad stuff will land so provided you are actually paying attention you can just side step it

    Rep grind - Badges, bonus to rep after getting one to exalted

    Gearing up - LFR, same thing as a 5 man, easy as hell and can ignore almost all mechanics and live and go afk to get loot.

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-27 at 10:05 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Baar View Post
    I am of the firm belief you didn't start mid expansion where you DID have to go through people like this to find a decent guild.

    Good guilds won't take the average Joe that just joined. He needs to get experience before they let him join.
    My Priest - http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/greymane/Tomaxx/

    My Hunter - http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...mane/Remolose/

    Note the Sgt title from way back when, I had no issues getting into a raiding guild and didn't deal with an asshole raid lead or any of the bullshit he claims

  4. #564
    "There are more divs in the world than.. better ones."
    -Karl Pilkington

    Almost anyone can agree that the world is populated with more idiots than anything else.
    As a business it makes perfect sense to "dumb" down your game.
    The problem is those idiots are harder to figure out a rubix cube that changes color.

    Why do you think we got so many Dailies?
    Because idiots can do it and it's time consuming.

  5. #565
    Just to throw something out there. When my warrior was out there, knee deep in dragon whelp guts in the swamp of sorrows, it was pretty stupid that despite the obvious 'real world' experience, that I had to go to an NPC that did nothing but chill in a city with a somewhat vacant look on itself so I could learn to rend better. I'm pretty sure I should've been teaching him. A lot of today's wow that people like to complain about is just wow minus the stupid and arbitrary pieces.

  6. #566
    Quote Originally Posted by Emfg View Post
    It actually is though. MoP compared to wotlk, heck, cataclysm even, has been dumbed down so much. The only times I have to put effort into playing the game is when I PvP and solo high end raiding/level 90 dungeons... Outside of those examples I never have to try my best.
    So outside of the stuff that was designed to be challenging (not grindy) ever since the inception of the game you don't have to be as good to complete it? No shit Sherlock.

    Quote Originally Posted by DiegoBrando View Post
    Scroll a few pages back, when I said I could solo Zul Farak on my lvl 50 warrior. Then tell me why is this even possible? Or a lovely example that happened a while ago. I get a group for Scarlet monastery - Graveyard. A rogue stealths and runs to the boss and kills him, and the dungeon is over in 5 minutes. Now tell me again how the game has not been dumbed down. And again you come here and start talking about heroic bosses, when already everyone in the thread acknowledged that heroic raids are hards. The topic is "dumbed down game", not "heroic raids are dumbed down".

    But then again, I expected nothing less from a Blizz fanboy than to post the same crap after 28 pages.
    Let me explain to ya a little something called scaling. When each expansion hits, the developers do a lot of little changes to spells so that at the cap all the specs are relatively on equal footing. Now, since leveling content doesn't particularly matter to anyone, they don't do anything about low-level balance. Which means that, with time, the older instances get outscaled by the new player scaling paradigm. And since no one cares, they don't rebalance it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Seefer View Post
    Boss Mechanics - They now put a circle on the ground where bad stuff will land so provided you are actually paying attention you can just side step it

    Rep grind - Badges, bonus to rep after getting one to exalted

    Gearing up - LFR, same thing as a 5 man, easy as hell and can ignore almost all mechanics and live and go afk to get loot.
    Bullshit. The number of mechanics per boss fight has like tripled since vanilla/BC. The fights are now much more complex due to the increased number of moving parts. And all the specs have more complex rotations to pay attention to while doing those mechanics.

    LFR is shitty for gear catchup in so many ways. But you can still run the older tiers with a pug and get pretty good gear out of it.

    Rep grinding takes more time than it did before and the bonus only applies to alts.

  7. #567
    Over 9000! Baar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seefer View Post
    My Priest - http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/greymane/Tomaxx/

    My Hunter - http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...mane/Remolose/

    Note the Sgt title from way back when, I had no issues getting into a raiding guild and didn't deal with an asshole raid lead or any of the bullshit he claims

    In case you didn't know. You are not everyone. Just because you didn't have issues doesn't mean others didn't.

  8. #568
    Quote Originally Posted by Daetur View Post
    That is why it has continued to simplify itself- because it worked, and because it was always Blizzard's design philosophy, from the very beginning. Whether this simplification is or is not one of the causes of the sub loss, or whether that is better attributed to the game's age, possibly outdated sub-to-play model, or the general popularity of MMOs right now, is all and only unproven and unprovable speculation.
    Now, I am one of those F2P Haters and only because I have yet to come across a gaming company that had the ethics to separate development to better the game vs store items to boaster their gains.

    It is an ongoing issue with all the F2P Games on the market right now. Soon as the game goes live, 3/4 of the development goes into their store where 1/4 struggles to push out content and work on game development IE. Class Balance, Encounter Design, Zone Design, Game Mechanics and Bug fixes. We have seen it time and time again, Guild Wars 2, Rift, Neverwinter(on the fence) and so on. It is a wave and very few see it coming, the quality of game play is sinking and how much you can make off the store is becoming the golden nugget. Now I know everyone is going hate on this post but think of it from a marketing stand point. All you have to do is give the audience just enough to keep them logging on, the bare minimum. Because its F2P, players don't have the expectations they would with a Sub game. You see it every day in life and the old saying rings true. You get what you pay for. Prioritizing development on Store items: designs, little pets, store bug fixes(GW2 was terrible for this, fixed all the bugs and added new features to the Store before the game breaking bugs)


    As for accessibility, all games offer a trial, more then enough time to get a feel for the game.

    Sub-to-Play is the ethical route for an MMO, it keeps all budget in one major area. Game Development.

  9. #569
    Quote Originally Posted by Kevkul View Post
    Bullshit. The number of mechanics per boss fight has like tripled since vanilla/BC.
    It only feels like it because now we have the dungeon journal placed in front of us. It details all these spells/abilities from all the random adds/sources in the fight, and it feels like a novel. Basically every fight in Throne has a ton of crap you just ignore in the journal, because it's out of your control.

    There's a lot of fluff still, and plenty of fights that look more complex than they are. Heck, you can say Heroic Lei Shen is a combination of spread/stack, cause it is, but turns out it's pretty hard. Council in Throne looks crazy, right? Look at the list of abilities from the Illidari council 6 years ago, pretty similar. Much more deadly too.
    Last edited by fangless; 2013-06-27 at 04:30 PM.

  10. #570
    Quote Originally Posted by DiegoBrando View Post
    Scroll a few pages back, when I said I could solo Zul Farak on my lvl 50 warrior. Then tell me why is this even possible?
    Because low level tanks don't have the end-game threat-generating mechanisms on their bar yet. Blizzard compensates by giving them insane low level DPS so that they can hold threat. Also, Blizzard isn't exactly known for balancing lower level classes. Case in point:

  11. #571
    Quote Originally Posted by fangless View Post
    It only feels like it because now we have the dungeon journal placed in front of us. It details all these spells/abilities from all the random adds/sources in the fight, and it feels like a novel. Basically every fight in Throne has a ton of crap you just ignore in the journal, because it's out of your control.

    There's a lot of fluff still, and plenty of fights that look more complex than they are. Heck, you can say Heroic Lei Shen is a combination of spread/stack, cause it is, but turns out it's pretty hard. Council in Throne looks crazy, right? Look at the list of abilities from the Illidari council 6 years ago, pretty similar. Much more deadly too.
    Not true. The dungeon journal doesn't just make the fights look more complex than they are, the fights themselves have more mechanics per raid boss. Here is an excellent article from restokin: http://www.restokin.com/2013/04/the-...tion-overload/

    And you can't compare a tier's third boss with a tier's last boss to demonstrate that the complexity has remained the same. The earlier bosses are almost always easier than the last one.

  12. #572
    IMO some miss the point. Its not all about the difficulty.

    Of course going to a trainer in Stonard or whatever wasnt hard but it was part of the RPG feeling. Some grind aspects have to be in game
    They may be tedius, even boring but IMO some of them should be inside in MMORPG.

    And sure leveling back then was not rocket science but keeping an eye on your mana, watching that you dont pull more than 1-2 mobs at once
    was a good part of the leveling process. People need to feel a danger in the world and conquer some sort of "challenge", be it in dungeons or while leveling.
    Sending people all over the world for some quest was also a nice thing, people that didnt mind could skip it and others had a good afternoon with it.

    Harder dungeons required some sort of social interaction, be it gathering the group, traveling and then finally doing it.
    Most of the users that complain in this thread about "dumbed down content" dont want super hard heroic difficulty world but just some elites here and there, group quests, worldmobs that cant be aoed all the time and so on.

    If you want to get max level asap to farm your LFR, then of course those things are not for you. They will slow you down.
    "A fool's paradise is a wise man's hell!"

    WoW leveling/heroic/LFR difficulty in one line of code:
    do {press (AnyKey)} until MobHealth=0;

  13. #573
    Quote Originally Posted by fangless View Post
    It only feels like it because now we have the dungeon journal placed in front of us. It details all these spells/abilities from all the random adds/sources in the fight, and it feels like a novel. Basically every fight in Throne has a ton of crap you just ignore in the journal, because it's out of your control.

    There's a lot of fluff still, and plenty of fights that look more complex than they are. Heck, you can say Heroic Lei Shen is a combination of spread/stack, cause it is, but turns out it's pretty hard. Council in Throne looks crazy, right? Look at the list of abilities from the Illidari council 6 years ago, pretty similar. Much more deadly too.
    Illidari Council was not hard. Neither was Illidan himself. BT/MH was a really easy tier compared to even T5 or Sunwell. Only reason there weren't more clears back then was the insane attunement gating. The bosses that raiding guilds had trouble with that tier were Archimonde(I swear I clicked the tear before I landed!) and Mother Shahraz(OMG Blizz, RNG blows!). Both were nerfed while the tier was active before either was killed by more than like 50 US guilds.

  14. #574
    Quote Originally Posted by Roxkis View Post
    Because "commitment" is something that should be required to play a game? I'm commited to my job, my friends and family, maybe some other hobbies that I consider more important.
    Commitment isn't needed to play the game. It's needed to play the game at a high level. You're not even rejecting the idea of commitment to a hobby, just this particular one. Why would you denigrate those who choose this particular hobby as the priority, instead of poker, or baseball, or beading, or gardening, or whatever floats your boat?

  15. #575
    A need for class trainers is gone, because now one is magically gifted by a powerful God of some sort with new abilities. There's no more joy of eagerly awaiting that spell you see in the list several levels ahead.

    I do miss this, seeing "that spell" you wanted to work towards to achieve. I also found by doing this, people learned their class's better.

    The mobs are pathetic, and the classes are overpowered in PvE. A low level character could easily take on 5 or 6 mobs before seeing any sign of difficulty in fighting them. What ever happened to having to be careful, actually working to complete a quest or dungeon? You simply AOE them down now.

    Quest wise - Yes and no, I'm more than willing to bet your using looms on your characters to down stuff, I remember when I leveled my first char, a pally, I had to go against mobs my own level, one on one, maybe two if I was a level higher, but never anything above my level, I died lots and then there was my mage friend, who could go to a zone 3 levels higher and aoe them down, and that was during BC. so while I was getting creamed, he was canning like you mentioned. So from my PoV a small buff was needed to some class's but generally things do die to easy now

    Dungeon wise - its a joke now tbh, dps can do the pulling and canning, my mate leveled his monk and was running into OK solo and aoeing down 4 -6 mobs in there at a time solo. I would like that "threat" back in dungeons where you had to rely on the tank,

    Spell tooltips showing you when to use your spells, how to use them and in what kind of scenario.

    I dont see this being a negative tbh with you. Again going back to my first char, I was young and my talents were spread into ret, holy and protection, I saw a talent I wanted, got it, moved on to the next one. I would of liked some sort of tool tip explaining some spells and how they work, maybe not when and where, but a rough quick note would of been nice.

    Talent trees. Seriously, what is this? I feel like I am in a game for 6 year olds when I look at this. Could they have dumbed it down anymore? I feel like the next step is merely choosing what spec you want, and I expect that change to happen in a few months time.

    I do like the new talent trees, but I do want our old talents back, and not just the "you have to hit the last talent before you can go into a secondary talent tree" crap. Moving on to my 2nd character, which started me on raiding, I enjoyed being 3/4 demonology and 1/4 destruction or vis versa, which ever one it was.

    Dungeons. Why must they show us where each and ever boss is? Heck, even the introduction to instance maps annoyed me a bit. Part of the fun of dungeons was running it a few times before coming across a boss you hadn't seen before, because it's off to the side and new players wouldn't normally know of it. Now we have "Go here for this boss, and this one, and this one, and this one. And don't worry, they're incredibly easy. In a few levels you could probably solo it."

    I find the dungeon journal handy tbh with you, however from the point of view of a new player, then yes I agree with you, its fun to find new things. However, I think the instance maps were something that was well needed. The original sunken temple.... I loved it, nice load of exp, loot and laughs, but finding those dammed statues always confused the hell out of me (again I was young remember) it was frustrating a rough guide wouldn't of hurt. And again, boss's now could do with a buff

    Raids. The LFR is a great example of this, instant gratification with absolutely no commitment required. No preparation required, no need to know what the bosses do, no nothing. Just go in, spam 3-4 buttons and you're done.

    I can't speak for heroic raids, but the challenge is there if you want it, LFR only shows content with a gear reward, you can't jump out of LFR into heroic raiding, on dead servers its actually a good idea because new players can gear before applying to raid guilds. Should it be harder? yes maybe, or they should clamp down more on people who afk and waste time essentially getting boosted. But LFR is a positive not a negative

    Blizzard is trying to make the game appeal to a younger audience to get the new generation interested in the game. And that's a completely fair goal. However, doing it how they are isn't the right way to go about it. They're making this game boring and disappointing to those of a mediocre intelligence level, and underestimating those of the new generation. They're more intelligent than many will give them credit for, and they do not need this level of simplification of it.

    In the end they are losing the quality players. The ones that can make it an amazing community, the ones who do not need their parents money to afford the game. The ones who I love to find in a guild and spend hours and hours playing with.

    I want a challenge, I want to have to think, I want that excitement back. Because soon i'll feel like i'm playing Farmville, with dragons.

    Is this something that was asked for? Quality of life went too far? Did a group of mentally challenged people petition Blizzard and say "This game is so difficult, I don't know how or when to use my spells and skills.... can you hold my hand?"
    Or did Blizzard, in their infinite wisdom, think that dumbing down this game to such a level that there is no learning process now is a good idea?

    The game today feels as though every cheat possible has been turned on. Warriors and Warlocks are vastly different to the one I rolled all those years ago.

    WoW feels like a game with GODMODE enabled. that is hardly compelling or enticing. "The worlds BEST MMORPG" has turned into "The worlds EASIEST and most accommodating MMORPG". That is NOT how you retain subs. The game has lost millions of subs and now they're relying on people loving the "fresh car smell" of WoW, which will definitely fade with time. Basically they've decided to aim for short term profits. that's it. Works well now, but if the game every does collapse, i assert that the kernels of that failure are being planted now.
    And I'm sorry but there is a huge 12 marked on it, showing the minimal age for the game, based on your writing, I'm assuming your a little older than that of course they are going to try to make it simpler

  16. #576
    Old God Frozenbeef's Avatar
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    I do miss this, seeing "that spell" you wanted to work towards to achieve. I also found by doing this, people learned their class's better.
    I can remember going bankrupt on my first character because all the skills/ ranks :S

  17. #577
    Quote Originally Posted by BenBos View Post
    You only talk about ... 10% of the offered content of WoW 2013...

    You made it to Gladiator PvP already ? Since only 0.1% can get it, I don't see any merit in your words.

    The offered content is SOOOO huge these days, the WoW stuff is too challenging for any normal player anyways.

    And I am not even talking about time sinks but ... Skill... From competitive PVE, PVP to such things as the upcoming competitions in ...Pet Battles ...

    Seriously.
    What the hell does anything I have said have to do with -my- PvP rank or PvE progression?
    I was talking about; leveling, raiding, gear grinding, proff grinding, PvP ranking, Honour farming. It was all one GIGANTIC timesink, there was no difficulty involved beyond managing to get a large number of players to work as a team or to find the time to actually do pretty much anything. And the same goes for anything non-raiding related to, the ENTIRE GAME was built around you spending as much time as possible grinding something.

    And I am not even talking about time sinks but ... Skill... From competitive PVE, PVP to such things as the upcoming competitions in ...Pet Battles ...
    Then why bring it up? And PvP is actually more skillful of late due to the resilience changes making gear LESS important than skill, plus what the actual crap do Pet Battles have to do with the game's difficulty?

    Either I'm being mean for the sake of it, or you just talked out of your arse for the sake of it.

  18. #578
    Over 9000! Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seefer View Post
    I am of the firm belief that you never even played back then and are basing your wild ass assumptions on the Onyxia MOAR DOTS video to justify your anti-social behavior or just being bad so nobody wants to play with you.
    I am of the firm belief that I don't really give a shit what you believe. That was my experience and it's obviously the experience of many others. I'm not basing it on the many whelps guy I'm basing it on the assholes I had to go through until I finally met the group of players (in wotlk) that I liked plkaying with and stuck with throughout. What you believe in this matter is irellevant. BC was not the glory days. BC was a shit hole in alot of aspects. You met alot of bad people and some good ones to. It wasn't all bad. But I perfectly understand and absolutely applaud the developers robbing the cliques who ran these raid guilds of all the fucking power they had over other peopel.

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-27 at 06:53 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by fangless View Post
    It only feels like it because now we have the dungeon journal placed in front of us..
    No he's right it has. With the exception of end tier bosses most bosses in vanilla and bc were literally stand their and dps. Run out once every minute. Go ahead and look at every boss in hyjal. Even just on the surface of the dungeon finder you'll see it's astronomically different. Christ the developers have said this as much to. Raids in the past didn't have very much going on. Well now they do. Why the community or members of the community remain in denial about this I will never know.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

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