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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by mickybrighteyes View Post
    I find it hilarious that whenever a topic like this pops up someone or multiple people will bring up <insert boss kill>.
    ad hominem. just ignore these people.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by swagster View Post
    ad hominem. just ignore these people.
    Lol why ignore give us your armory really we really do wanna see how truly hardcore you are or most people are just going to assume your a wanna be try hard HC raider with no kills whatsoever yet your complaining how EZ the game is.

    I'm just saying

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Daetur View Post
    Here's the thing. One of the reasons for Warcraft's massive success in Classic and BC was due to the fact that it was significantly easier, more forgiving, and more accessible than all of the other popular MMOs on the market. Anyone who played at the time and had experience with other MMOs like Everquest could tell you this.

    That is why it has continued to simplify itself- because it worked, and because it was always Blizzard's design philosophy, from the very beginning. Whether this simplification is or is not one of the causes of the sub loss, or whether that is better attributed to the game's age, possibly outdated sub-to-play model, or the general popularity of MMOs right now, is all and only unproven and unprovable speculation.
    While I agree with your first paragraph, the second paragraph is something I very much disagree with. During Vanilla and TBC, I did not see any simplification going on. If anything TBC was more hardcore than Vanilla. However it was WOTLK (curiously enough, when Activision/Vivendi got involved) when WoW suddenly went SUPER casual. It wasn't even a smooth transition. Literally in one day, all heroics were total faceroll, the main raid of the tier was hilariously easy AND a rehash of previous content. A lot of people praise Ulduar for being the best raid tier ever designed. While I personally wasn't a fan, there were objectively brilliant things about it - namely how the hardmode stuff worked, and the sheer size of it. But it's important to remember that they had sooooo much time to work on that, thanks to using Naxx as the first tier. Clever really.

    Once Ulduar was done, the ToC patch - that is when everything went downhill. When the LFD tool came out. Total throwaway raid. Daily quest hubs... pathetically easy dungeons... and total casualisation. Gearscore addon didn't help matters. ICC was a decent raid, marred by increasing nerfs (or rather, player buffs) that eventually over-casualised it.

    Cata launch was a pretty decent attempt to fix this (imo anyway), but it was too late. Too late to go back from how casual ICC was, and there was a huge backlash... Blizzard caved, and that was when I knew we would never get the good ol' WoW back.

  4. #44
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    I must be one dumb M*****F***** since I find the raidbosses harder for each expansion... (Played since TBC, serious since Wotlk)

  5. #45
    Doing a fun run of ICC25 last night and we got to Saurfang and I said regarding the Blood Beasts "I still have nightmares of these things".

    Ah, the good old "hard" days when the only thing you had to worry about was slowing/kiting adds and standing 10 yards apart.

  6. #46
    Reading your post i'm not sure you get the difference between tedious and "smart"
    not annoying =/= dumbed down go do any raid thats not lfr and you might know what i'm talking about
    If you think LFR is below you, don't do it, if you think talent trees that are an actual choice are dumber than pressing 31 buttons and then calling it a day till next expansion then you are dumbed down

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Aerodyne View Post
    Literally in one day, all heroics were total faceroll
    Wrath heroics weren't total faceroll at release. And the ICC 5-mans weren't faceroll until at least a month after ICC fully opened up. Your condensed memory is not the reality.

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Seriss View Post
    I don't see what the problem is what with being given explanations as to how the game works. I mean, I read the instruction manual for a new TV or my new microwave too before I use it. What's so wrong with WoW giving people information as to what to do? Apparently, it still doesn't give ENOUGH information, seeing as how many complaints about bad players we usually get on the forums.
    The problem is not the information it's that people don't read it. And not having to read the instructions means there is even less reason to do so. I never read the manual untill something goes wrong or I don't know what to do anymore.

    Everything up to LFR doesn't require you to "read the manual" to be honest. You could acquire more knowledge or try to play better but all it does is make you finish content faster, it's not required to get anywhere.

  9. #49
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    WoW was not complicated by any strech in the past. Today the game is far more complex for a whole list of reasons. The things that were stripped down (various stats for example) were not complicated for the average player, especially in the age of google.

    The current complexity of wow isn't something that you can fix on icy veins of noxxic. How do you teach players with limited memory capacity to expand it? How do you teach reaction times? How do you teach muscle memory?
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  10. #50
    /sigh.

    You are confusing dumbed down with convenience, and it's clear that you want to enforce YOUR style of playing onto everyone else.

    Class trainers were a poor mechanic, learning spells on the fly is far more convenient and much better for new players to learn which spells they have. Before the change players would visit the trainer after say 10 levels, learn everything, and not even notice half the spells they had learnt.

    The spell tooltips thing already existed in the form of addons, it wasn't something new, it was something - again - to help new players and to just ease people into rotations.

    Talent trees are far better now than they ever were. The old way was just horrible, now (considering the talents of the tier are closely equal) we can choose our own playstyle. Previously you would google "ret paladin cookie cutter build" and that was it, finished. Now that was some dumb crap right there.

    You don't HAVE to use the dungeon maps or journal, it's there for those of us that used to tab out and google what we needed to know. Not everyone plays the same as you, not everyone wants this "ooooooooooooo MZTERYZ N EXPL0RAZIONZ" style of play, they want to get the job done.

    LFR is grossly misunderstand by the raging "pro" kids. You'll find that there's a good handful of players in each LFR that do research the tacts, learn from the fights, move out of fire, sim / reforge / gem / enchant correctly. Just because there are a few bad players or AFK'rs doesn't mean you can assume everyone is there to take the piss. Also the difficulty level of LFR was raised this expansion, look at the amount of QQ posts on the forums asking for nerfs.

    I love the fact you assume these changes were made for kids. HELLO? Kids are far more tech savvy than most adults these days, if anything these changes are for the older generation.

    Geeze louise, I swear some people were beaten with the stupidity stick.
    Last edited by quikbunny; 2013-06-24 at 02:34 PM.

  11. #51
    I just can't stand these threads.

    Stop being a brat. How much content do you want? Things need to be streamlined for QoL or things become overwhelming for new players.

    And if you were raiding heroics this tier, "dumbed down" wouldn't be your first thought. It wouldn't be a thought at all.
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  12. #52
    cuz casuals cry like little babies if they dont get what they want
    Quote Originally Posted by JimmyHellfire View Post
    WoW wasn't "dumbed down" one bit.

    sorry but it is, any aspect of the game is so retard friendly atm

  13. #53
    to reach a larger age group = more money.
    It is why i quit.
    My lines are so potent that in this small segment i made all of the ladies in the first 3 comments pregnant!

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Hb View Post
    cuz casuals cry like little babies if they dont get what they want

    sorry but it is, any aspect of the game is so retard friendly atm
    More bets? I'll set this one at Heroic Jin'rokh.

  15. #55
    I think the OP is confusing complexity for the sake of complexity with depth.

    But even then, WoW is far more complex in all of the areas that matter these days than it was in the past. Things like class rotations, boss mechanics, and questing dynamics are all infinitely more complex and engaging than they were back in the day.

    I think the phrase we often hear from the devs "easy to learn, hard to master" is key, and it's a winning philosophy for game design as a whole.

  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wondercrab View Post
    I think the OP is confusing complexity for the sake of complexity with depth.

    But even then, WoW is far more complex in all of the areas that matter these days than it was in the past. Things like class rotations, boss mechanics, and questing dynamics are all infinitely more complex and engaging than they were back in the day.

    I think the phrase we often hear from the devs "easy to learn, hard to master" is key, and it's a winning philosophy for game design as a whole.
    Yep. I'm of that opinion that it's become so "hard to master" that the entire spectrum has shifted and now "easy to learn" isn't very easy to learn..
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  17. #57
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    WoW is only evolving with the times. When it was first launched waiting for an hour +++ to get a group to crawl a dungeon was acceptable. Having a house phone was also acceptable.

    When BC launched there was a huge increase in internet users, mainly those who discovered online play through Xbox live and a fledgling PSN. Social media actually became a term. 'You' became Time Magazine's person of the year. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/You_(Ti...n_of_the_Year) The Smart Phone came about.

    When LK launched, players increased and demanded a shorter wait for dungeons and more accessible raiding. 10 mans and the dungeon tool came about because of this. Blizzard themselves acknowledged that less than 1% of all players saw BC's penultimate raid, Sunwell, and considered that to be an unacceptable use of resources to create something so large for a base so small. Leetists became the new perriah with the claim that they were the role models of the rest of the WoW community and people can just go watch it on You Tube.

    When Cata launched wow returned to its original difficulties much to the dismay of the gaming masses. I never found it difficult... but a lot of people who were new to the MMO experience did. The CC model may have been difficult for some, but it slowed things down tremendously. In a way it was a step backwards. Raiders now found the smaller 10 man model of raiding to be more challenging, bringing about accessibility issues once again. Thus, LFR was born. Social media had taken off and as of 2012 97% of the global population had access to some sort mobile device that would allow at the very least text messaging.

    Why am I mixing these facts together? Simple. In the 9 years WoW has existed in retail form, the world has changed tremendously. People have gotten faster, more mobile and less patient. They've gotten more social, but in different ways.

  18. #58
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    Ah look, another Swagster thread...

    A need for class trainers is gone, because now one is magically gifted by a powerful God of some sort with new abilities. There's no more joy of eagerly awaiting that spell you see in the list several levels ahead. The mobs are pathetic, and the classes are overpowered in PvE. A low level character could easily take on 5 or 6 mobs before seeing any sign of difficulty in fighting them. What ever happened to having to be careful, actually working to complete a quest or dungeon? You simply AOE them down now.
    - You honestly consider the removal of needing to go to your class trainer as "dumbing down"? Seriously? No really, are you? Mobs are certainly *Not* pathetic, I can take on 3-4 mobs on my monk WITH CC, timed healing (which is hard as healing orbs are a pain) and a correct rotation. You CERTAINLY have to know how to play in order to do that, you can't just smash buttons and watch the mobs fall over. It's like you haven't even played the current content...

    Spell tooltips showing you when to use your spells, how to use them and in what kind of scenario.
    - And before people just used AddOns. Nothing has changed.

    Talent trees. Seriously, what is this? I feel like I am in a game for 6 year olds when I look at this. Could they have dumbed it down anymore? I feel like the next step is merely choosing what spec you want, and I expect that change to happen in a few months time.
    - There was NOTHING difficult about the old talent trees. They are no worse or better than the new ones really. They have there negative/positives. With the old system all you had to was look up the FOTM/cookie-cutter spec and you were done. Most of them were utterly redundant and all the new ones have done is "trimmed the fat".

    Dungeons. Why must they show us where each and ever boss is? Heck, even the introduction to instance maps annoyed me a bit. Part of the fun of dungeons was running it a few times before coming across a boss you hadn't seen before, because it's off to the side and new players wouldn't normally know of it. Now we have "Go here for this boss, and this one, and this one, and this one. And don't worry, they're incredibly easy. In a few levels you could probably solo it."
    - What!? Are you SERIOUS? I ran old-dungeons in classic and TBC and that must of happened only once or twice, mostly in places like Mauradon. Dungeons like SM/Dead mines/Ramparts, remember them? And then you had ones like Wailing caverns/Mauradon. Big deal? Hardly.

    Raids. The LFR is a great example of this, instant gratification with absolutely no commitment required. No preparation required, no need to know what the bosses do, no nothing. Just go in, spam 3-4 buttons and you're done.
    - LFR is easy. Nobody can deny that, but you're grossly exaggerating just how easy it is with that language. The only valid argument one can make about LFR is that it forces normal/HC raiders to do it sometimes. You just can't get over the fact not every player is like you. GET OVER IT. I don't raid and this is so obvious to me it hurts.

    Blizzard is trying to make the game appeal to a younger audience to get the new generation interested in the game. And that's a completely fair goal. However, doing it how they are isn't the right way to go about it. They're making this game boring and disappointing to those of a mediocre intelligence level, and underestimating those of the new generation. They're more intelligent than many will give them credit for, and they do not need this level of simplification of it.
    - Tell me how much of an expert into the gaming industry you are. Please do. And tell me how -anything- you've listed that's been removed/changed actuall required intelligence.

    In the end they are losing the quality players. The ones that can make it an amazing community, the ones who do not need their parents money to afford the game. The ones who I love to find in a guild and spend hours and hours playing with.
    - So in your mind "quality" players aka hardcore players (in your sphere of playing) make a better community? I have ALWAYS been a semi-casual player and met both nice, decent and understanding casuals and nice decent and understand hardcores. Do you think casual players are all kids or something who spam the trade chat, ninja mobs and generally cause havoc? A player who isn't very good at the game but is polite and trying as hard as they can is worth a hell of a lot more to me than some rude "hardcore" player who spams the damage meters and tells everyone they suck for not being up to their "l33t" standard of play.

    I want a challenge, I want to have to think, I want that excitement back. Because soon i'll feel like i'm playing Farmville, with dragons.
    - Get off your high-horse and play something else, PLENTY of games out there that I'm sure will suit you better. WoW's changed for you, yes I understand that - but stop clinging to something you clearly don't enjoy.

    Is this something that was asked for? Quality of life went too far? Did a group of mentally challenged people petition Blizzard and say "This game is so difficult, I don't know how or when to use my spells and skills.... can you hold my hand?"
    Or did Blizzard, in their infinite wisdom, think that dumbing down this game to such a level that there is no learning process now is a good idea?
    - Ah the standard "let's try and blame a bunch of disabled people" rant. Shows real class that does. You don't seem to grasp the ideas that perhaps players are physically limited in playing OR have serious time constraints.

    The game today feels as though every cheat possible has been turned on. Warriors and Warlocks are vastly different to the one I rolled all those years ago.
    - Go play a fury warrior well. I bet you can't. I certainly can't. The thing that's changed is that classes can now all perform well for a variety of players, the hard part is MASTERING your class which VERY few people can do.

    WoW feels like a game with GODMODE enabled. that is hardly compelling or enticing. "The worlds BEST MMORPG" has turned into "The worlds EASIEST and most accommodating MMORPG". That is NOT how you retain subs. The game has lost millions of subs and now they're relying on people loving the "fresh car smell" of WoW, which will definitely fade with time. Basically they've decided to aim for short term profits. that's it. Works well now, but if the game every does collapse, i assert that the kernels of that failure are being planted now.
    - Utterly redundant language considering your earlier points. You've ignored massive chunks of the game too. Also, which may be a shock to you, WoW IS an old game.

    Hilarious redundant thread is hilarious and redundant.

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  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by swagster View Post
    Strangely enough every new expansion WoW is simpler, dumbed down, etc.

    A need for class trainers is gone, because now one is magically gifted by a powerful God of some sort with new abilities. There's no more joy of eagerly awaiting that spell you see in the list several levels ahead. The mobs are pathetic, and the classes are overpowered in PvE. A low level character could easily take on 5 or 6 mobs before seeing any sign of difficulty in fighting them. What ever happened to having to be careful, actually working to complete a quest or dungeon? You simply AOE them down now.
    Going back to town to train new spells every two levels was a pain in the ass. An incredible inconvenience that completely ruined any immersion you got while questing, interrupting the flow of things.

    Mobs have never been hard. Leveling never required being careful. There were plenty of specs that could AoE. In fact, some classes were popularly leveled by AoE grinding. The only way you could honestly die while questing in vanilla was pure stupidity.

    Spell tooltips showing you when to use your spells, how to use them and in what kind of scenario.
    Turn off beginner tool tips. You know some people really are beginners. And the elitists have been begging for ways to help teach the beginner "bads" how to play their classes. My tooltips only tell me damage and durations.

    Talent trees. Seriously, what is this? I feel like I am in a game for 6 year olds when I look at this. Could they have dumbed it down anymore? I feel like the next step is merely choosing what spec you want, and I expect that change to happen in a few months time.
    Talent trees required zero thought for the vast majority of the palyerbase. They looked up the right spec, and slapped the points where they were told. While I don't think the new talent system is any better, it's definitely not worse.

    Dungeons. Why must they show us where each and ever boss is? Heck, even the introduction to instance maps annoyed me a bit.
    You're grasping at straws, here. This one's an incredibly petty argument.

    Raids. The LFR is a great example of this, instant gratification with absolutely no commitment required. No preparation required, no need to know what the bosses do, no nothing. Just go in, spam 3-4 buttons and you're done.
    LFR fills the spot of giving players who don't want to take a game so seriously that they have to invest serious amounts of time into it. Consequently, the content is nowhere near exciting and the rewards are not nearly as powerful.

    Actual raid content is far more complicated than anything in Vanilla or TBC could've dreamed of being.

    Blizzard is trying to make the game appeal to a younger audience to get the new generation interested in the game. And that's a completely fair goal. However, doing it how they are isn't the right way to go about it. They're making this game boring and disappointing to those of a mediocre intelligence level, and underestimating those of the new generation. They're more intelligent than many will give them credit for, and they do not need this level of simplification of it.
    Age has nothing to do with it. Also, you're not making a very strong argument. You're saying they're going about it the wrong way, yet you don't suggest the right way.

    Suddenly, I find myself too god damn bored to continue arguing against you, because everything you've said in your post is a copy and paste of something someone posted last year, and the year before that, and the year before that, and the year before that.

    You know you don't really have to play the game, right?

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by swagster View Post
    I want a challenge, I want to have to think, I want that excitement back. Because soon i'll feel like i'm playing Farmville, with dragons
    Let me ask you one question:

    Did you, or did you not, get all gold medals in the challenge modes and have beaten every heroic raid?

    I'm suspecting that you did not. If you did not - then you do not want challenge or have to think - as it's in the game, but you're not doing it for some reason. Why is that?
    "Tell them only that the Lich King is dead... and that World of Warcraft... died with him..."

    Quote Originally Posted by BenBos View Post
    That's the ONLY reason you would post 9600 posts over 3 years: a mission of hate.

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