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  1. #521
    Quote Originally Posted by TaurenNinja View Post
    It's all there. But still some people complain about how easy the easy crap is although they never even touch the harder stuff. It's paradox. Or insane. I don't know. But it's hardly objective. And that's what offends me a bit, because I try to do all these challenges and then there's some random guy without any evidence that he knows what he's talking about claiming that "the game is easy". It's just stupid.
    So much in agreement. Nearly everyone complaining about the ease of the game will usually admit (eventually) that they haven't done everything the game has to offer in terms of challenge. And quite often they've not played in quite some time either, and thus have no actual frame of reference.

    Very few players capable of doing the very hardest content under the most difficult conditions (example: world first raiders) will say the game is easy. They might complain there's nothing left to do after they've completed that content, but calling it easy even for them is just ridiculous.

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-27 at 09:22 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Actually I don't agree with that. The rest of what you say is true if you accept the multiple difficulty model but if we went back to one difficulty the game would become so mind numbingly stupid easy just for the sheer need of players having something to do. If you lump all the players into one group obviously it will have to drag the content difficulty DOWN compared to heroics and normals today. I for one would welcome that but I suspect the crying from heroic raiders would be deafening. In fact heroic modes were set up for exactly that reason. In fact the very fact that heroic modes are a thing now sets current raiding apart from bc and vanilla where you simple had one difficulty and 9/10 that difficulty was set to piss easy.
    Well we'd still have some hard content right at the end, but there wouldn't be very much of it. The current model is great in the fact there's extremely difficult end-game content in every tier now. Reducing (aka dumbing down - how ironic!) it down to a single difficulty wouldn't solve anything - it would mean most of the content is too easy for the heroic raiders and most of the content is too hard for the very casual players.

  2. #522
    Quote Originally Posted by Durandro View Post
    So much in agreement. Nearly everyone complaining about the ease of the game will usually admit (eventually) that they haven't done everything the game has to offer in terms of challenge. And quite often they've not played in quite some time either, and thus have no actual frame of reference.

    Very few players capable of doing the very hardest content under the most difficult conditions (example: world first raiders) will say the game is easy. They might complain there's nothing left to do after they've completed that content, but calling it easy even for them is just ridiculous.
    And you are talking "depth" in difficulty, like becoming Gladiator in PVP (0.1% chance). Now add the horizontal challenges of play options.

    In fact I don't think anyone can STILL grasp every mechanic of WoW 2013 play to the fullest. How many % know how to put off experience? How many know what wargames are? How many know all subtle play within pet battles AND are 2300 PvP rated AND belong to the 1% top raiding guilds ...

    Making a thread about "dumbing down" in WoW anno 2013 is such a joke really.

  3. #523
    Deleted
    The game was never hard to begin with; it was just a gigantic time sink for people with nothing better to do. Honestly I've checked strategies for classic bosses and so on and the only -hard- part was getting 40 people to co-operate, communicate, gear up and follow the ever-so-basic tactics that were in classic. At least now bosses (usually) have some variation or special mechanics to them.

    People need to stop confusing difficulty with 'time-required-to-actually-enjoy-the-game.'

  4. #524
    Quote Originally Posted by Ranorack View Post
    The game was never hard to begin with; it was just a gigantic time sink for people with nothing better to do. Honestly I've checked strategies for classic bosses and so on and the only -hard- part was getting 40 people to co-operate, communicate, gear up and follow the ever-so-basic tactics that were in classic. At least now bosses (usually) have some variation or special mechanics to them.

    People need to stop confusing difficulty with 'time-required-to-actually-enjoy-the-game.'
    You only talk about ... 10% of the offered content of WoW 2013...

    You made it to Gladiator PvP already ? Since only 0.1% can get it, I don't see any merit in your words.

    The offered content is SOOOO huge these days, the WoW stuff is too challenging for any normal player anyways.

    And I am not even talking about time sinks but ... Skill... From competitive PVE, PVP to such things as the upcoming competitions in ...Pet Battles ...

    Seriously.
    Last edited by BenBos; 2013-06-27 at 08:35 AM.

  5. #525
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    Quote Originally Posted by Durandro View Post

    Well we'd still have some hard content right at the end, but there wouldn't be very much of it. The current model is great in the fact there's extremely difficult end-game content in every tier now. Reducing (aka dumbing down - how ironic!) it down to a single difficulty wouldn't solve anything - it would mean most of the content is too easy for the heroic raiders and most of the content is too hard for the very casual players.
    In other words it would be normal. Unlike today were 2 of the three modes are to hard for the very casual player and the 3rd is basically a ghetto. Don't get me wrong I"m not by any means in favor of getting rid of lfr. I just think more difficulty modes isn't the answer. Raiding has just got to come down in terms of complexity. It can't simple go on forever increasing in complexity. At some point it has to reset itself so new players can get trained and fresh blood can come up.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  6. #526
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    In other words it would be normal. Unlike today were 2 of the three modes are to hard for the very casual player and the 3rd is basically a ghetto. Don't get me wrong I"m not by any means in favor of getting rid of lfr. I just think more difficulty modes isn't the answer. Raiding has just got to come down in terms of complexity. It can't simple go on forever increasing in complexity. At some point it has to reset itself so new players can get trained and fresh blood can come up.
    Personally I don't care if .1% of the player base finds the hardest difficulty too easy.

    I do care if 95% of the player base finds "normal" difficulty intractable.

  7. #527
    Deleted
    I don't really agree that the game has become that much dumbed down than before. What people see or remember as complexity were actually unneccessary mechanics that did nothing to improve on the game, only took time (attunements for example). However, I really dislike the current talent system and the gear as a whole actually. Today's "talents" are so far away from the original RPG model that you can't really say player X has build Y and player N, of the same class, has build M, it's just different abilities, talents are supposed to change how the class works and what it does and how it does it. Gear is the other problem imo, it is dull and unimaginative when it comes to enhancing your character. We just have some basic stats that get increased with every tier. What about gear that changes how skills interact with each other? Or makes certain skills do something completely different, or adds brand new skills. Character builds and gear diversity are the bread and butter of RPG games, sadly WoW has distanced itself away from that. (I realize that those things are hell to balance, I just listed them as examples).

    WoW is in no way a bad game and I still enjoy playing it, but it is a little more than a third person adventure-action game.

  8. #528
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Gilian View Post
    I say both because I am realistic. You keep fooling yourself.
    Why am I fooling myself?

    Every example I've bothered to read here talks about LFR, which is dumbed down on purpose, to make it "accessible" to people who aren't in guilds, won't read the tactics, don't know how to play their class 100% right.

    What's wrong with that?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilian View Post
    Complexity doesn't matter at all when you can ignore all those mechanics and abilities when doing the content. It's still dumbed down, simplified or whatever you want to call it.
    See, you can only be talking about LFR, because there's no fight in ToT at the moment where you can ignore mechanics, or at least not until your geared enough through doing the content and paying attention to the mechanics to be able to ignore the mechanics.

    You can't complain that something is easy when your only doing it on the easiest setting.

  9. #529
    Deleted
    So i finished this game on very easy, and it was easy like fuck!! WTF GAIS!

  10. #530
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Tryana View Post
    So i finished this game on very easy, and it was easy like fuck!! WTF GAIS!
    that's this thread in a nutshell

    People finish this puzzle:



    Then run to a soap box to complain about how easy it was, while this one sits on the same shelf and gathers dust:


  11. #531
    Quote Originally Posted by Nyteyes View Post
    In a word? Money. The easier the game is the more players they get to subscribe. Hence moar money.
    if blizz was really so much all about money like that they would have thrown out normals and heroics ages ago and never bothered with CMs or the brawlers guild

  12. #532
    Deleted
    A need for class trainers is gone - you still can wait that spell. Now you just see it on your spellbook rather than on trainer. Difference is you dont pay for it, which is good thing considering inflation of ingame money and low level greens costing several gold in AH (few silver used to be good price).

    Spell tooltips showing you when to use your spells - didnt they always tell you what they did? + rotations are by far more complicated than anything vanilla or TBC offered. At lvl 10 you have more usefull spells for PVE than you had at 60 during vanilla as dps.

    Talent trees - you googled right spec. There was one spec you used. If you didnt you were terrible. Oh the excitement getting 1% crit when you leveled... Wait that was boring as hell. At least nowdays most talents are usefull somehow and you can make difference by changing them and glyphs. By far more complicated and far more options than there ever was.

    Dungeons - there is challenge modes if you want bit more challenging content. There is also Brawlers guild for solo PVE. Even though i have good memories about spending 5 hours in BRD, it actually wasnt that much fun. I prefer current design over it. It was just messy. Though they could make some options to it like different wings etc. but over all i would consider current one improvement.

    Raids - Dont do LFR then. Its for people to see content easily and have some form of gear progression. If you want challenge get to normals or heroic raids. If someone else sees content it doesnt take ANYTHING away from you. Just be happy there is something for everyone.

    Vanilla / TBC was just time consuming, not really hard. People were terrible players and most bosses were tank and spank. Bosses were hard because they were enormous gear checks. I loved Vanilla / TBC but i prefer current content.

  13. #533
    I do agree. Killing level 12 mobs at level 90 has become a little too easy. /sarcasm.

    If you post stuff like this and then go wipe on H Horridon 50 times before killing him, it kind of contradicts the shit out of what you're trying to say. Even top 10 World Guilds wipe hundreds and hundreds of times on content for countless hours and probably many tired nights trying to kill a boss. That's difficulty. Obviously as they kill it more and more it gets easier because they start to know the fight down to a science. If you leveled to 90 and made this thread trying to say the game is easy, then i don't know.

  14. #534
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Galilei View Post
    I do agree. Killing level 12 mobs at level 90 has become a little too easy. /sarcasm.

    If you post stuff like this and then go wipe on H Horridon 50 times before killing him, it kind of contradicts the shit out of what you're trying to say. Even top 10 World Guilds wipe hundreds and hundreds of times on content for countless hours and probably many tired nights trying to kill a boss. That's difficulty. Obviously as they kill it more and more it gets easier because they start to know the fight down to a science. If you leveled to 90 and made this thread trying to say the game is easy, then i don't know.
    Scroll a few pages back, when I said I could solo Zul Farak on my lvl 50 warrior. Then tell me why is this even possible? Or a lovely example that happened a while ago. I get a group for Scarlet monastery - Graveyard. A rogue stealths and runs to the boss and kills him, and the dungeon is over in 5 minutes. Now tell me again how the game has not been dumbed down. And again you come here and start talking about heroic bosses, when already everyone in the thread acknowledged that heroic raids are hards. The topic is "dumbed down game", not "heroic raids are dumbed down".

    But then again, I expected nothing less from a Blizz fanboy than to post the same crap after 28 pages.

  15. #535
    Deleted
    Because low levels are never balanced and Blizz intentionally made option to get heirloom gear to make things easier and leveling faster. Reason is there is very few people leveling and most people want to rush through it. There is challenging content at lvl 90, most people just dont want to spend too much time on lower levels.

  16. #536
    Game was dumbed down so much mainly because it is needed for getting the masses into normal & heroic raiding.

    Quote Originally Posted by Galilei View Post
    ... Even top 10 World Guilds wipe hundreds and hundreds of times on content for countless hours and probably many tired nights trying to kill a boss. That's difficulty. ...
    No, that is trying to achieve something that they're undergeared for.

  17. #537
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by DiegoBrando View Post
    Scroll a few pages back, when I said I could solo Zul Farak on my lvl 50 warrior. Then tell me why is this even possible?
    Because they didn't retune all the dungeons in the 9 years and 4 expansions they've had since it was released....does that really need pointing out?

    I'm confused to the what your trying to say, the game has been dumbed down because when your just over half way through levelling to where the actual current content is things are easier than they were?

    This would make sense if the game was all level 50 solo-able dungeons, but it's not, hasn't blizzard said a number of times that things are balanced around level 90's, I'm just confused why you think your examples prove anything.

  18. #538
    Quote Originally Posted by DiegoBrando View Post
    Scroll a few pages back, when I said I could solo Zul Farak on my lvl 50 warrior. Then tell me why is this even possible? Or a lovely example that happened a while ago. I get a group for Scarlet monastery - Graveyard. A rogue stealths and runs to the boss and kills him, and the dungeon is over in 5 minutes. Now tell me again how the game has not been dumbed down. And again you come here and start talking about heroic bosses, when already everyone in the thread acknowledged that heroic raids are hards. The topic is "dumbed down game", not "heroic raids are dumbed down".

    But then again, I expected nothing less from a Blizz fanboy than to post the same crap after 28 pages.
    Wow has always been aimed at casual players. Original wow while grindy and had a lot of elite mobs that required groups was a lot more casual than other MMOS.

    Also you are picking and choosing your definition of dumbed down game. Some aspects of this game are easier but others are certainly more complex than ever before. So surely that means the entire game isn't dumbed down which is counter to the topics suggestion?

  19. #539
    Quote Originally Posted by swagster View Post
    A need for class trainers is gone, because now one is magically gifted by a powerful God of some sort with new abilities.
    QoL improvement. There was nothing difficult or smart about going to your trainer, so there is no making simpler or dumbing down.

    There's no more joy of eagerly awaiting that spell you see in the list several levels ahead.
    Why not? That still happens, you just don't have to go pick them up yourself.

    The mobs are pathetic, and the classes are overpowered in PvE. A low level character could easily take on 5 or 6 mobs before seeing any sign of difficulty in fighting them. What ever happened to having to be careful, actually working to complete a quest or dungeon? You simply AOE them down now.
    Agreed, leveling is a lot faster nowadays. It's not easier as it was never difficult, just slow and tedious. That's because veterans who level new alts don't want to do it the slow way AGAIN. New players probably wouldn't mind when everything was slower, but the current players raised hell that leveling your 8th alt was tedious.

    Spell tooltips showing you when to use your spells, how to use them and in what kind of scenario.
    How is that bad? Every game has a tutorial or a very extensive manual. How are new people supposed to learn what does what if you don't tell them?

    Talent trees. Seriously, what is this? I feel like I am in a game for 6 year olds when I look at this. Could they have dumbed it down anymore? I feel like the next step is merely choosing what spec you want, and I expect that change to happen in a few months time.
    Yes, because finding your spec on Elitist Jerks was so difficult. You had the illusion of choice, but if you choose anything different then the optimal spec, you would be sworn at and kicked from every group or raid. Now you have real choices, which is a lot more fun and forces you to think about how you would like to play.

    Dungeons. Why must they show us where each and ever boss is? Heck, even the introduction to instance maps annoyed me a bit. Part of the fun of dungeons was running it a few times before coming across a boss you hadn't seen before, because it's off to the side and new players wouldn't normally know of it. Now we have "Go here for this boss, and this one, and this one, and this one. And don't worry, they're incredibly easy. In a few levels you could probably solo it."
    Again, people should be able to learn everything ingame. Before you had to tab to a website to find what bosses there were, what they did and how to handle them. No you can learn that ingame. It doesn't make the dungeon easier or dumber or anything, just easier to learn. And yes, leveling dungeons are mostly AoE fests, but that's intentional. If you want a challenge, do challenge dungeons. If you just want some fun and gear, do normal/heroics.

    Raids. The LFR is a great example of this, instant gratification with absolutely no commitment required. No preparation required, no need to know what the bosses do, no nothing. Just go in, spam 3-4 buttons and you're done.
    Why do you need preparation for a game? I want to go in, play, go out, not make a job out of it or get homework. What is wrong with multiple difficulties? Normal and heroic raids have never been harder then they are today, because LFR exists (no more nerfing normals to accommodate bad players). Nothing has been dumbed down here, it's just an added difficulty.

    Blizzard is trying to make the game appeal to a younger audience to get the new generation interested in the game. And that's a completely fair goal. However, doing it how they are isn't the right way to go about it. They're making this game boring and disappointing to those of a mediocre intelligence level, and underestimating those of the new generation. They're more intelligent than many will give them credit for, and they do not need this level of simplification of it.
    It's still a 12+ game (or 13?) as it has always been, so what younger audience do you speak of?

    In the end they are losing the quality players. The ones that can make it an amazing community, the ones who do not need their parents money to afford the game. The ones who I love to find in a guild and spend hours and hours playing with.
    Because how well you can play has anything to do with how social you are or how much money you have? What nonsense.

    I want a challenge, I want to have to think, I want that excitement back. Because soon i'll feel like i'm playing Farmville, with dragons.
    Link me your armory with your gold medals for all challenge dungeons and every tier cleared on heroics when they were current, please. Leveling might be easy, and LFR, and heroics, but there's plenty of challenge left for people who want that.

    Is this something that was asked for? Quality of life went too far? Did a group of mentally challenged people petition Blizzard and say "This game is so difficult, I don't know how or when to use my spells and skills.... can you hold my hand?"
    Yes, actually. New players quit en masse before level 20 because they had no clues on how to play or what to do. But of course, you don't care, because you immediately label everyone but you as mentally challenged...

    Or did Blizzard, in their infinite wisdom, think that dumbing down this game to such a level that there is no learning process now is a good idea?
    No learning process? Why are there so few guilds clearing heroics again? Why do people fail in even LFR again?

    Ah well, you just go quit, the rest of us 8 million will continue playing the game in the difficulty that we want and have fun, without caring that someone else plays the game on an easier difficulty.

  20. #540
    Quote Originally Posted by Amerissis View Post
    Ah well, you just go quit, the rest of us 8 million will continue playing the game in the difficulty that we want and have fun, without caring that someone else plays the game on an easier difficulty.
    Until the next batch of 1 million leave, then you'll get to argue tirelessly about exactly why they all left.

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