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  1. #201
    Quote Originally Posted by hitandruntactic View Post
    Applications, DKP, BS about seniority as a means to screw new talent out of upgrades and raid spots are all ridiculous. Too many guilds are full of egotistical prats on power trips trying to tell everyone what to do. Good riddance. Guilds killed themselves off because of rotten people in them. If theyd rather carry some derp than bring a great player that doesn't want to join their guild and deal with stupid guild chat and some "class lead" they can outperform telling them how to play, they can go extinct like all other failed entities.
    Lol, I have been outperformed at posting bullshit. Noooooo!!

  2. #202
    When will people understand that those who just stick to LFR [B]JUST WOULDN'T RAID AND WOULD EITHER DO DAILIES AND 5 MANS OR QUIT THE GAME IF THERE WAS NO LFR/B]. The ones that would use to do normals but they found it too hard and too challenging/time consuming and that's why they stick with LFR, are NOT people that you want in your guild or in your raiding team anyway...

    Guilds are dying out if their leadership is not dedicated enough and that's all there is to it.

  3. #203
    Moderator MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thurizas View Post
    Only way that I see Flex-raiding being really useful is if it drops the same level of gear. Actually, _maybe_ the version in 5.4 will be the test and in WoW-6.0 all we will have is LFR and Flex, instead of LFR, 10-man, 25-man....now that would be great, in my opinion.
    Yeah, that was exactly my point when I said the bit about flex being expanded to other difficulties at some future point. However, if you think about it, extending flex in that way will completely--scorched earth completely--destroy 10-25 man raiding as we know it today. If you are very comfortable with raiding as it is, that's a very upsetting thing. If you believe that the 10-25 format has outlived its usefulness then it would be more welcome.

    I tend to lean toward the latter myself but am under no illusions at all about how upsetting it will be generally.
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  4. #204
    I think a big part of the problem is you probably have like 75% of the guilds but only 66% of the people that WoW had at its peak.

    Recruitment pool gets spread too thin

  5. #205
    Moderator MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gniral View Post
    lfr isn't going anywhere, it's much more plausible that normal will be removed, being replaced with flex.
    Which means that 15-man raids or Fixed-Anything man raids go out with it at least for normal.
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  6. #206
    Pit Lord HeatherRae's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jigga93 View Post
    The Game is going on almost a decade. People Find other games to play.
    I have. I like this one. Also, it's a couple years shy of a decade.
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  7. #207
    I will give my reason it has been dying since BC.

    The loop is too obvious. Raids and patches have become predicatable in regards to raiding. In Vanilla, you felt like you were ´beating´the game when you cleared a raid. Since the middle of BC, it has just become obvious that there will always be another raid to grind through in a few months. So instead of beating the game, if you become a hardcore raider now, you are pretty much committing to a lifestyle.

    Compare it to an expansion launch. the first week of an expansion, many of us have fun going all hardcore crazy for a week to get leveled up quickly.. but it is because we know it is for a relatively short amount of time and then it is ´over´. With hardcore raiding since vanilla, you know it is never over.. By the time you have heroics on farm, you are already peeking at the PTR....

    It just is a huge commitment to be a hardcore raider.. and it never ends... In Vanilla, it felt like it ended when you cleared a raid... now it doesn´t. The game has matured and the loop is obvious now. There will always be a next loop to jump through in a few months.

  8. #208
    Pit Lord HeatherRae's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valaras View Post
    When will people understand that those who just stick to LFR [B]JUST WOULDN'T RAID AND WOULD EITHER DO DAILIES AND 5 MANS OR QUIT THE GAME IF THERE WAS NO LFR/B]. The ones that would use to do normals but they found it too hard and too challenging/time consuming and that's why they stick with LFR, are NOT people that you want in your guild or in your raiding team anyway...

    Guilds are dying out if their leadership is not dedicated enough and that's all there is to it.
    Those ah..."undesirables" are the reason WotLK was such a successful expansion. The game needs them more than you are willing to admit.
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  9. #209
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    Which means that 15-man raids or Fixed-Anything man raids go out with it at least for normal.
    I could see a future of LFR, Flex and Challenge Mode raids. Last I heard Challenge Mode Dungeons were really cheap and easy to make once the dungeon itself was made, so why not raids?
    Last edited by Darmalus; 2013-06-24 at 08:42 PM.

  10. #210
    Quote Originally Posted by Gniral View Post
    lfr isn't going anywhere, it's much more plausible that normal will be removed, being replaced with flex.
    Of all the raids, I think Normal mode would be the one I'd miss least. Assuming Flex performs as expected. While I avoid LFR like the plague, its great as a 'casual raid guild' leader to have them as a place to direct newer players that have the initiative to improve ON THEIR OWN TIME.

    I'd like to think a big part of why raidguilds are 'dying out', are because 90% of the servers simply don't have the population to handle very many decent raiding guilds that also get the social compatibility necessary to longterm stability.

    i'd like to hope we'll see a rebirth of 25man raids between flexraid and virtual servers, but we shall see...

  11. #211
    Because of LFR. Hands down.

    There is only so much time in the day and week. If you can get similar type gear, in an easier way, is it really worth spending the time re-running the same content only harder, for the same loot with only marginal gains?

    Epics and gear actually use to mean something, now they don't. The game is completely over saturated gear-wise. Even legendary items are easier to acquire.

    LFR is killing the PvE aspect of this game causing guilds to shut down, players to quit and continues to poison a game that was already falling off.

    Not only that, raid guilds use to take pride in being the first to obtain a certain tier, or to be able to progress further through content quicker then others on a realm. It was competitive and it was fun. It created rivalries, gave people something to do and encouraged players do be more and be dedicated.

    When blizzard introduced LFR to please the masses, it was a straight up slap in the face to all the raid guilds and a sign of complete disrespect to that hardcore fan base. But such things tend to happen when a company goes public.

    If you wanted to see the endgame content, then you should be forced to put in the time, work harder, or experience it on YouTube. No disrespect to the casuals. There's plenty of stuff for you to do casually in this game. But endgame was meant for the hardcore. Those who were willing to sacrifice the time and effort just for a chance to experiencing something unique, just as in real life.

  12. #212
    Warchief theWocky's Avatar
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    He He. I'm in the process of uploading a video on exactly this ~ will take several hours on my crappy connection. New blood. Lack of appeal for new gamers.

    WoW has no appeal to new gamers. Not only WoW, but non-MMO'ers who pick up a game like Rift, Tera, etc and have the daunting task of killing x number of mobs... this doesn't appeal anymore.

    I propose that every new expansion, every new alt / new player should be set to the max level of the past expansion. This will make the grind less and the number of new and old people participating at the same level a larger number. Old zones should be nerfed to the ground (in terms of quest "grind", not "difficulty") so that people can do all those quests if they wish to experience the lore. Also, introduce mentoring for old content (ie scale people down) and make them get "tokens" for completing these old dungeons so that people (new and old) have more to do.

    Just my 5c - flame away. I'm wearing an asbestos suit.
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  13. #213
    Quote Originally Posted by HeatherRae View Post
    I should be clear - I don't think that LFR should go away. I just don't think it should be used as an excuse on the part of the dev team to make Normals so stupidly complicated that extremely casual raiders are shut out from them. Normal content shouldn't be directed at heroic guilds. It SHOULD be aimed at casual players.
    I can say this is what killed my guild this expansion. We cared more about raiding with who we wanted to than who could do the best. We had some players who were quite good, however we had a few who were basically dead weight. In the past we could get away with this, but normals in MoP have just been too hard for us, and LFR is not a good replacement for this. Thankfully, flex is coming. It has me rather excited since it looks like we might actually have a way to play again.

  14. #214
    Lfr + Merging of 10 & 25 Locks killed allot of raiding for sure.
    Personnaly to me the change that both 10 & 25 save you out for the raid is very very retarted ..
    I loved in Wotlk do raid / progress 25 man mode with my guild and then later on in the week repeat the raid on 10 man with some guildys / pugs.
    But yeah whatever i haven't enjoyed pve in long time and most likely never will again.

  15. #215
    Mechagnome Zippoflames's Avatar
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    I think the lack of new players is part of it but I also think its the age/growing up of the players who played from vanilla to now, The last time I really raided properly was heroic 25 man ICC and I genuinely loved raiding then, But now I just don't have the time to raid as much as then...

    Maybe flexi raiding will fix it more for people like me who cant commit to 3-4 nights a week but can probably squeeze 1 night maybe 2 at a push per week so if a guild will bring me along then ill give it a shot if not no problem ill do my weekly/fortnightly lfr.

  16. #216
    Quote Originally Posted by Mad_Murdock View Post
    Well, Ghostcraler has tweeted several times now that LFR has taken very few normal raiders away. He states that most of LFR is ran by people who never raided. Obviously, there is the tin foil hat guys who are going to say he's lying. So if someone is still trying to say LFR is stealing raiders, then I'd say either put on your tinfoil hat or give up that argument, it's been dismissed!
    A lot of players do LFR, so a very few of them can still be 5% of the player base that can have a large impact on the normal raiding scene. Flex mode raids are being targeted towards those who used to be able to do normal modes or want a more PuG friendly engaging raiding experience that used to exist. If the very few of normal mode raiders going LFR was an insignificant number then why would the developers be spending resources on flex mode and the new rewards for flex mode and up?

  17. #217
    Pandaren Monk Otiswhitaker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valaras View Post
    When will people understand that those who just stick to LFR [B]JUST WOULDN'T RAID AND WOULD EITHER DO DAILIES AND 5 MANS OR QUIT THE GAME IF THERE WAS NO LFR/B]. The ones that would use to do normals but they found it too hard and too challenging/time consuming and that's why they stick with LFR, are NOT people that you want in your guild or in your raiding team anyway...

    Guilds are dying out if their leadership is not dedicated enough and that's all there is to it.
    That's exactly what I'd do without LFR. Infact, before LFR, that's exactly what I did :x I'd play the patch's content, then quit till the next patch, or just drop out until another expansion. LFR managed to keep me subscribed for over a year straight, so it must be doing something right.


    I think the biggest problem is, is that the people who want to raid, have raided, are raiding, or quit raiding or quit the game. Then you're left with generally the same pool of people with the same general mentalities, with few new people in the game in general soooo... the game is just sort of at odds with it's design philosophies. It sort of always has been, really. It's just that the game used to have massive subscriber churn, and it doesn't anymore.

    Like I asked earlier, does ANYONE here have ANY stories of anyone getting into normal modes recently, as in around shortly before MoP launch till now, with ZERO normal mode experience? I'm sure it HAS to happen, it'd make no sense for it not to. But it seems hellishly uncommon.

  18. #218
    As someone who has raided semi hard core since early BC I can say LFR has been a major factor in killing off a lot of raid guilds. When you are pushing new content with your guild and wiping a lot to the same bosses that you have already facerolled in LFR it hurts your will to raid.

    The way I look at it is LFR has turned into a cancer on Normal mode Raid guilds. There is only room for Hard Mode raiders and LFR raiders now. But hopefully the new "flex raiding" will kind of bridge the gap.

  19. #219
    Quote Originally Posted by theWocky View Post
    Just my 5c - flame away. I'm wearing an asbestos suit.
    We won't need to flame you since you'll die horribly from lung cancer soon. :P

    I think a combination of LFR letting people do raids without guilds, high difficulty in normal mode, the age of the game, exclusivness of raiding guilds and low amount of new players coming into the game all contribute in varying degrees to slowely making raiding guilds collapse all over the board. There is no really good fix, it's a natural process and ultimately inevitable.

  20. #220
    Quote Originally Posted by theWocky View Post
    He He. I'm in the process of uploading a video on exactly this ~ will take several hours on my crappy connection. New blood. Lack of appeal for new gamers.

    WoW has no appeal to new gamers. Not only WoW, but non-MMO'ers who pick up a game like Rift, Tera, etc and have the daunting task of killing x number of mobs... this doesn't appeal anymore.

    I propose that every new expansion, every new alt / new player should be set to the max level of the past expansion. This will make the grind less and the number of new and old people participating at the same level a larger number. Old zones should be nerfed to the ground (in terms of quest "grind", not "difficulty") so that people can do all those quests if they wish to experience the lore. Also, introduce mentoring for old content (ie scale people down) and make them get "tokens" for completing these old dungeons so that people (new and old) have more to do.

    Just my 5c - flame away. I'm wearing an asbestos suit.
    I'd agree with this. If you start playing WoW right now, unless you have a scroll of resurection cast on you, or are part of the recruit a friend system you've got 90 levels of stuff to do, before you get to the "good" part of WoW.

    For some people that's just going to be so damn daunting. Years ago I'm sure Blizzard say that only about 20% of players ever hit level 60 (or words to that effect). It was definately under 50%. How can a game, that's only creating content for those at max level keep people wanting to play if the vast majority don't even see that content?

    Come the next exspansion, there is no way I would ever level another character from level 1 again. Even now, I'd been thinking about making an Orc Shaman, but it just takes so damn long, even with the exp nerfs to get back to the point that my level 90 DK and Rogue are at.

    I also think that's another part of the reason that raiding guilds are dying. People have said in this threat that if they don't play a certain spec/class they won't be able to raid. That's an AWFULL thing to happen! I doubt very much that any guilds on my server want an Unholy DK on their raid lineup. Maybe they'd like a Blood one, but that's not what I want to play, I love spamming deathcoil and turning my geist into a big purple monster.

    If I could start at level 85, blitz through the questing (which is super easy now, my DK hit 90 after finishing only Jade Forest and Valley), I'd probably main spec Enchance and off spec Resto. That'd make my chances of getting into a raiding guild much easier as i'm more of an asset to the guild. Right now, i'm not doing Vanilla, BC, LK, Cata and THEN MoP all over again for the 4th or 5th time just to be given the chance to get into a guild that might let me raid all the fighs i've already done in LFR.

    I'll get flamed for this, but games like Team Fortress 2 where you can choose your class on death are fantastic for keeping me occupied. I normally play a Medic, but if the team needs a Heavy to push the cart or a Pyro to flush Spys, or a Soldier to explode Engineer nests I can switch and it dosn't take any time to do so. That freedom to choose what I want to play, when I want to play it is so damn good.

    If I was to start applying for guilds on my server (which I never would, I hate the idea of having to schedule time for a game), then because of my choices to play as an Unholy DK I'm guessing i'd get turned down by a good amount. What choice do I now have, to continue to progress my character?

    It's LFR or quit.

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