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  1. #361
    Quote Originally Posted by jbombard View Post
    Maybe it's just me, but it isn't only the player that has changed, guilds have changed. How guilds support the players has changed. Instant gratification hasn't only affected how players play the game, the people running guilds want the same instant gratification without putting in the work. Running a raid guild in vanilla was hard fracking work and the people that did it were some seriously dedicated people, I'm not even talking about anything near cutting edge guilds, I'm talking run of the mill raiding guilds. Now nobody wants to do all the work required to maintain a guild, nobody wants to gear members up, nobody wants to skill members up, and then they complain that it is the player that is lazy. It isn't just them, everybody seems to be wanting all the benefits with none of the work.
    As a GM, I would gear and skill people up and do anything required if I would believe for a second that the player I just recruited is going to stay for more than a week. Heck, I've given thousands of gold to players in the past in order to help them gear up for raiding, and I gave up tons of rolls in raids in order to gear up my group where I felt I could survive a bit longer without getting the item being rolled. In my view, gear was never the issue, and skill wasn't either. Those are things that can be improved over time and experience. To me its loyalty. The WoW community has zero sense of it and the lack of real incentive for normals/HC hurts it as well. Raiding gear used to be something that when you get, you feel as if you've achieved something great that you worked hard for and earned, and it used to boost your motivation. Now, you get LFR gear, with all the set bonuses and high enough ilvl that you can even upgrade, you get to do the legendary quest in LFR, you get VP and rep, so what incentive is there to run normals/HCs? A few higher ilvls, a very rare chance for mounts and...that's it. Why bother learning tactics and trying your very best when you can just stand there, afking for half of it, and get nearly the same reward?

    I am one of the people who want to kill bosses because of the mechanics, because of the challenge, I don't really care about gear as long as I have the minimum required (sure, gear is nice, but its not what I play for), nor the mounts, etc.

  2. #362
    Quote Originally Posted by Blachshma View Post
    As a GM, I would gear and skill people up and do anything required if I would believe for a second that the player I just recruited is going to stay for more than a week. Heck, I've given thousands of gold to players in the past in order to help them gear up for raiding, and I gave up tons of rolls in raids in order to gear up my group where I felt I could survive a bit longer without getting the item being rolled. In my view, gear was never the issue, and skill wasn't either. Those are things that can be improved over time and experience. To me its loyalty. The WoW community has zero sense of it and the lack of real incentive for normals/HC hurts it as well. Raiding gear used to be something that when you get, you feel as if you've achieved something great that you worked hard for and earned, and it used to boost your motivation. Now, you get LFR gear, with all the set bonuses and high enough ilvl that you can even upgrade, you get to do the legendary quest in LFR, you get VP and rep, so what incentive is there to run normals/HCs? A few higher ilvls, a very rare chance for mounts and...that's it. Why bother learning tactics and trying your very best when you can just stand there, afking for half of it, and get nearly the same reward?

    I am one of the people who want to kill bosses because of the mechanics, because of the challenge, I don't really care about gear as long as I have the minimum required (sure, gear is nice, but its not what I play for), nor the mounts, etc.
    I know those people are still out there, as raiding is not yet completely dead. And we thank you for your dedication. That said, it seems to be much rarer these days. If we want to look to the death of the raiding guild, I think some people need to stop look outwards and start looking more inwards.

    Edit: Incidentally the guild I am in was very helpful and social, however our problem was that only a few core members were actually very good and progression was kind of slow, I personally didn't mind but it was a problem. Balancing people vs. progression vs. drama is what makes it all so hard.
    Last edited by jbombard; 2013-06-26 at 08:05 AM.

  3. #363
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    Quote Originally Posted by jbombard View Post
    Disagree, with the amount of socializing that actually goes on in many raids, I would say raiding is not really socializing. Raiding with 10/25 people is multiplayer gaming on the xbox. The people who are building long term social relationships in the game are the ones MMORPGs are for and most of them aren't raiders. People who want to just log in to do some 10-25 player instanced monster killing could just as easily be doing the same thing on a multiplayer console game.
    I agree. Having to shedule things with 9 or 24 other people to be able to play certain parts of the game seems ... rather dated and becoming less and less viable to me. I'd rather they start thinking about designing MMOs so that you can play whichever part of the game you want, when you have time to do it instead.

  4. #364
    Quote Originally Posted by Roxkis View Post
    Yeah, right. Because linking your gear and raid progress for scrutinizing is something guild leaders ask of you to see whether you fit in. Seems legit, bro.

    Raid guilds weed out players who aren't helping to get the job done - which is okay if you want to get the job done - but getting a god damn job done isn't what I play a game for. And that's precisely the mentality I'm talking about. Getting the job done with someone, no matter what sort of person that is, as long as they are qualified to make the job easier. That's why you get so much drama in raid guilds, because they consist of people that are in it to get the job done, not because they're liking each other or (god forbid) act like they're playing a darn game for fun.

    Have you ever answered a job apllication form with "Geez, I don't know what time I'll be available on Weekdays, maybe I won't be available at all. It's nothing serious, who cares?" That wouldn't be acceptable for a job, but it should be acceptable for a game. It has to be acceptable for a game, actually, because games ought to be low-priority compared to real life commitments to adults. However, try to get accepted into a raiding guild with an honest answer like that.

    But lo and behold, there is a way to raid that absolutely makes this answer acceptable now. And that makes the concept of a raiding guild look more ridiculous now than it ever did.
    No one can really help you with the fact that you think that everything that requires you to schedule time because (god forbid) you are actually dealing with real human beings is a job to you.

    I completely agree that the only option for you is to do LFR. Have fun. But the fact that you call raiding guilds a necessary evil is just ridiculous, lol. Because no one can ever enjoy having to answer 10 questions to raid with 30 others who aren't as selfish as you are and are not going to waste your time?

  5. #365
    Quote Originally Posted by jbombard View Post
    I know those people are still out there, as raiding is not yet completely dead. And we thank you for your dedication. That said, it seems to be much rarer these days. If we want to look to the death of the raiding guild, I think some people need to stop look outwards and start looking more inwards.
    If that's the case, I would love to have an in-game advisor, as I would love to know what I'm doing wrong.
    Spending days and hours in spamming trade? check
    Posting on wow forums? check
    Helping with gold and boosting for gear? check
    Helping with advice on tactics and class specifc advice? check
    I was even doing guild events such as guild anniversary and such, where I gave away huge amounts of gold to random members of the guild.

    And yet, raid group is dead.

  6. #366
    Quote Originally Posted by Blachshma View Post
    If that's the case, I would love to have an in-game advisor, as I would love to know what I'm doing wrong.
    Spending days and hours in spamming trade? check
    Posting on wow forums? check
    Helping with gold and boosting for gear? check
    Helping with advice on tactics and class specifc advice? check
    I was even doing guild events such as guild anniversary and such, where I gave away huge amounts of gold to random members of the guild.

    And yet, raid group is dead.
    I feel for you, but you could be doing everything right, but the problem is so many people aren't and the impression those people create affect how people view raiding as a whole. Imagine if all of a sudden some apple pie makers were using cheap ingredients that were causing people to get food poisoning, you could have the best apple pies in the country and still you would likely see less sales because people would be less likely to buy either from the own negative experiences or because of the negative experiences they have heard about.

  7. #367
    Quote Originally Posted by jbombard View Post
    I feel for you, but you could be doing everything right, but the problem is so many people aren't and the impression those people create affect how people view raiding as a whole. Imagine if all of a sudden some apple pie makers were using cheap ingredients that were causing people to get food poisoning, you could have the best apple pies in the country and still you would likely see less sales because people would be less likely to buy either from the own negative experiences or because of the negative experiences they have heard about.
    Yes, we had some bad wipes. For example, our warlock missclicked a few times and cause his imp to pull, causing a fast wipe. That annoys people, it annoys me, but its part of the game, it happens, bad impression but not a huge disaster. What people no longer understand is that in order to succeed in raiding you need to be loyal and patient, have your guild's back the way it has yours. I could swear that in Cata I found more people like that on a dying realm than I am in MoP on a far more populated realm.

  8. #368
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blachshma View Post
    If that's the case, I would love to have an in-game advisor, as I would love to know what I'm doing wrong.
    Spending days and hours in spamming trade? check
    Posting on wow forums? check
    Helping with gold and boosting for gear? check
    Helping with advice on tactics and class specifc advice? check
    I was even doing guild events such as guild anniversary and such, where I gave away huge amounts of gold to random members of the guild.

    And yet, raid group is dead.
    The difference is that the playerbase has changed...

    It used to be a social and progressive playerbase who understood that raiding was the best place to be once at top level. Now it appears that players r looking for different things...

  9. #369
    Quote Originally Posted by Endemonadia View Post
    The difference is that the playerbase has changed...

    It used to be a social and progressive playerbase who understood that raiding was the best place to be once at top level. Now it appears that players r looking for different things...
    Eactly! But imo LFR is a big reason for the chage of mindset as well. Imagine how much more epic ToT would have been without LFR. People would crave it a lot more.
    Last edited by Blachshma; 2013-06-26 at 08:42 AM.

  10. #370
    Quote Originally Posted by jbombard View Post
    Disagree, with the amount of socializing that actually goes on in many raids, I would say raiding is not really socializing. Raiding with 10/25 people is multiplayer gaming on the xbox. The people who are building long term social relationships in the game are the ones MMORPGs are for and most of them aren't raiders. People who want to just log in to do some 10-25 player instanced monster killing could just as easily be doing the same thing on a multiplayer console game.
    How can you disagree with that. It's illogical to buy a game that requires you to deal with other people but are actually unwilling to do that. It's also ignorant to think that you are not affecting other peoples experience in the game, even in LFR. So when you are saying that it's your money and obviously you don't care about someone elses $ 15 you are being selfish or stupid or both.

    "I'm going to play this Massive Multiplayer Online videogame and even pay a monthly fee for it!" "Oh wait I have to actually deal with other people."

  11. #371
    Quote Originally Posted by Blachshma View Post
    Yes, we had some bad wipes. For example, our warlock missclicked a few times and casue his imp to pull, causing a fast wipe. That annoys people, it annoys me, but its part of the game, it happens, bad impression but not a huge disaster. What people no longer understand is that in order to succeed in raiding you need to be loyal and patient, have your guild's back the way it has yours. I could swear that in Cata I found more people like that on a dying realm than I am in MoP on a far more populated realm.
    I don't really get it either, if you don't want to wipe you really shouldn't be raiding. People make mistakes you wipe it up and start over. But you always lose people because "that other guy is shit" or "why didn't I get that loot".

    The thing is even if you are completely loyal and patient and dedicated to your players you will always lose some players. That ends up frustrating some people who then become dicks who run a guild like a business with no patience or loyalty, when you run a guild like that you will lose players the second something better comes along.

    I think running a guild must be like a mother with 24 children, all trying to make sure everybody plays nice, gets fed, and don't kill each other. When you succeed you can build a nice family. When you fail child services takes your kids away.

    Ok probably not a great analogy. But anyway you will never keep everybody but it is important to identify the people who are interested and loyal to the guild, and at least to keep them happy while you build on that base and try and accumulate more people who are loyal and dedicated.

  12. #372
    Quote Originally Posted by jbombard View Post
    Disagree, with the amount of socializing that actually goes on in many raids, I would say raiding is not really socializing. Raiding with 10/25 people is multiplayer gaming on the xbox. The people who are building long term social relationships in the game are the ones MMORPGs are for and most of them aren't raiders. People who want to just log in to do some 10-25 player instanced monster killing could just as easily be doing the same thing on a multiplayer console game.
    The longest friendships I have acquired from the game is from raiding. I still talk to old guildies from time to time and have met up with them when traveling in their area. There is such a thing as players being friendly in guilds and not just robots.

    Those who I have done PuG raiding with I have not formed any long term friendships with and then you get random queue systems where players treat others like bots. PuG raiding is far more comparable socially to xbox multiplayer than guilded raiding is.

    Than again I tend to guild up with players I like and that has done me well.
    Last edited by nekobaka; 2013-06-26 at 08:46 AM.

  13. #373
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilian View Post
    How can you disagree with that. It's illogical to buy a game that requires you to deal with other people but are actually unwilling to do that. It's also ignorant to think that you are not affecting other peoples experience in the game, even in LFR. So when you are saying that it's your money and obviously you don't care about someone elses $ 15 you are being selfish or stupid or both.
    In my opinion this idea that "I pay $15 the same as everyone else therefore im ENTITLED to see the same content as everyone else" is the single worst position which has ruined the game.

    I buy many videogames and pay the same as everyone else, does that mean im entitled to get exactly the same progress through that game as everyone else? ofc not.

    Ive played videogames for 30 years and its always been the same, the most skillful players are the best at it. The most skillful players get to the end. These days game devs have switched it all on its head, games r treated like movies where everyone who started to watch it will also see the end... and Wow is guilty of the same design philosophy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilian View Post
    "I'm going to play this Massive Multiplayer Online videogame and even pay a monthly fee for it!" "Oh wait I have to actually deal with other people."
    And this culture that people playing Wow demand that they dont want to soicalise or mix with other players whatsoever goes against what MMOs actually r. These people have forced the XBox mentality of multiplayer gaming into Wow, an MMO, and this XBox culture does not work here.

  14. #374
    Quote Originally Posted by Gilian View Post
    How can you disagree with that. It's illogical to buy a game that requires you to deal with other people but are actually unwilling to do that. It's also ignorant to think that you are not affecting other peoples experience in the game, even in LFR. So when you are saying that it's your money and obviously you don't care about someone elses $ 15 you are being selfish or stupid or both.

    "I'm going to play this Massive Multiplayer Online videogame and even pay a monthly fee for it!" "Oh wait I have to actually deal with other people."
    I'm disagreeing in that raiding is a feature of an MMORPG not a requirement. You don't need raiding to be an MMORPG. Just because people do not want to meet up on a set schedule does not mean that they are not doing things massively multiplayer, they very likely are, just not on a schedule. Also the most social people in the game are often not raiders. Being an MMORPG has nothing to do with money, believe it or not there are MMORPGs that don't have a sub fee. The only thing any player should care about in any game is having fun, if you aren't raiding for fun you shouldn't be raiding. An MMORPG naturally attracts people who want to have fun playing in a world shared by other people and has absolutely zero to do with raid scheduling.

  15. #375
    Quote Originally Posted by Duskster View Post
    No. LFR takes all the poor habits and spirit-crushing aggravation of LFG and amplifies it by several orders of magnitude. Speaking from experience, one eventually grows numb to it.
    People are actually suggesting to turn of your chat. It must be a lot of fun in there.

    This is actually something I sometimes did while playing CS 1.6 on a public server because of all the insulting and stupid childish behaviour. That's why I enjoy playing with people I actually enjoy playing with more than having a little bit more convenience.

  16. #376
    Quote Originally Posted by jbombard View Post
    I don't really get it either, if you don't want to wipe you really shouldn't be raiding. People make mistakes you wipe it up and start over. But you always lose people because "that other guy is shit" or "why didn't I get that loot".

    The thing is even if you are completely loyal and patient and dedicated to your players you will always lose some players. That ends up frustrating some people who then become dicks who run a guild like a business with no patience or loyalty, when you run a guild like that you will lose players the second something better comes along.

    I think running a guild must be like a mother with 24 children, all trying to make sure everybody plays nice, gets fed, and don't kill each other. When you succeed you can build a nice family. When you fail child services takes your kids away.

    Ok probably not a great analogy. But anyway you will never keep everybody but it is important to identify the people who are interested and loyal to the guild, and at least to keep them happy while you build on that base and try and accumulate more people who are loyal and dedicated.
    Tell me about it. Our druid healer said after a boss kill "If I'm not winning this item, I'm leaving the game". He lost the roll, logged off and we never saw him again.

    But even the loyal and patient players eventually run out of patience, as they want to raid. Eventually they leave too (feeling bad about it, but still leaving) and then there's truly nothing left. I spent an hour yesterday trying to convince my best friend in the game not to leave the guild and instead try to rebuild the group. My speeches over loyalty and patience have bared very little fruit, as he is convinced rebuilding would take too long and he wants to raid now. Dedication just means squat to most people.
    Last edited by Blachshma; 2013-06-26 at 08:53 AM.

  17. #377
    Quote Originally Posted by nekobaka View Post
    The longest friendships I have acquired from the game is from raiding. I still talk to old guildies from time to time and have met up with them when traveling in their area. There is such a thing as players being friendly in guilds and not just robots.

    Those who I have done PuG raiding with I have not formed any long term friendships with and then you get random queue systems where players treat others like bots. PuG raiding is far more comparable socially to xbox multiplayer than guilded raiding is.

    Than again I tend to guild up with players I like and that has done me well.
    My guild consists of people who raid, PvP , play alts and just about anything in between. I have strong relationships with people that never made it to a single raid. If your guild is mainly for raiding then that is where most memorable moments and good times will come from, and that is what holds people together. But sometimes it is just BSing and 3 people going to the other factions capital for some mischief, that can result in some funny memories as well.

  18. #378
    Raidguilds are dying out because nobody wants them. That's what the elitists and stick-in-the-muds refuse to realize.

    People are far more confident in their standards and expectations of how they want to spend their time with entertainment today. The whole idea of having this superimposed social structure that schedules your spare time around a computer game is completely obsolete.

    First you have to go through a bizarre process of application and initiation. Then there's people who decide for you when you should be showing up and when you're free to go. Others decide if you're even playing or being benched. You're supposed to have other people tell you what to do, how to play, while monitoring, evaluating and criticizing you, as if it went without saying. And on top of that, they have systems in place that arbitrarily decide if you're getting loot or not.

    Do you really think that that's a realistic model of how people in 2013 imagine digital entertainment in their free time? It shouldn't surprise anyone that it's becoming increasingly difficult to convince people that that's something they should be applying for. We live in a time where everything is personally tailored, on-demand, etc. You build your hardware the way you need it. You subscribe to channels you're interested in. You get a phone contract that suits your personal needs. You choose your own TV program as well as the air time. You get the picture. Now try selling your archaic idea of an online brothership to the average Joe next door who wants to play a cool online game in the evening.

    Also, a lot of the critics seem to massively overvalue the aspect of socializing in the game. WoW is a multiplayer RPG, not Second Life or a dating site. Perhaps some people aren't quite aware of that. It's about interacting with the game world and it's obstacles in a cooperative or competitive way first and foremost. Building personal long-distance relationships maintained on a daily basis definitely isn't something people are interested in by default when they're actually just trying to play a game.

    I already have a personal social environment. I definitely don't need a second one, in the computer. Playing multiplayer games for me is cooperating with other players to beat the game. Watching what they're doing, doing something that's complemental and constructive. Or compete with them in a PvP environment. Just like Unreal Tournament in 2000.

    I don't necessarily wanna make friends in a game. I have friends. I don't want to integrate a whole new social microstructure in my life just to play a computer game - and certainly not one that even expects me to adhere to some concepts of loyalty, continuity and commitment. It's normal, you draw a line between the real life and entertainment in your pastime.

    We can have a talk ingame or have a good laugh. Put someone on your friends list and play with the same guy on another occasion. It's just people playing, no strings attached. But the idea of "community" and "socializing" a lot of people here have is really kind of pushy. I don't want to marry into a guild. And from what I can tell, a lot of people don't. It's just not 1999 anymore, MMOs have developed from a geek's playground to a mainstream form of digital entertainment today.

    And from a personal standpoint- talking about deterioriation of the community: I believe that raidguilds and the "tight-knit" communities even bear a rather hefty share of the blame for that. It's exactly that kind of excluding, self-contained idea of social interaction that helped create the notion that it's just the inside thing that matters and everyone else is a stranger I don't have to talk to and don't have to care about.

  19. #379
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    Our raiding guild fallen apart because of people missing raid time (both new ones and "old" players), they was very distracted (watching streams in alt+tab on trash) and disrespectful to RL (blaming him for not saying to everyone where and when to run and what shit they have to do when something happens in current time, but they was instructed to do it before boss pull). So our RL started to kicking out these people, took new people (we invited even blue-geared players, and still, all wipes occured because of someone making a mistake, not because of mana/HPS/DPS/one shots, all we required is DBM addon and knowledge of how to work with it) and it still didn't worked. And now we raid LFR once every two weeks for fun because it's too frustrating to get new people to raiding.

    Oh, i remember when we invited new hunter and healing priest. They failed horrible in mogu shan vaults. On 4 king boss they died from AoE attack of first spirit king on all pulls (i remember it was around 20 times). How is this even possible? All their excuses was "omg, i didn't seen it" or "oh shit i lagged".
    Last edited by Charge me Doctor; 2013-06-26 at 08:58 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Urban Dictionary
    Russians are a nation inhabiting territory of Russia an ex-USSR countries. Russians enjoy drinking vodka and listening to the bears playing button-accordions. Russians are open- and warm- hearted. They are ready to share their last prianik (russian sweet cookie) with guests, in case lasts encounter that somewhere. Though, it's almost unreal, 'cos russians usually hide their stuff well.

  20. #380
    Quote Originally Posted by Blur4stuff View Post
    some players may want things to be easy, but what they want most is convenience. if normal and heroic difficulties could be queued for then plenty of players would be doing it.
    I never thought of that but it's true, I want to do heroic raiding but I want to raid when I want to and not when someone else does.

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